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...why are they still covering them up?

So as not to scare other motorists...

Why do people keep asking the same questions over and over again,?? Dodge doesnt "Need" a Midsize sedan offering. the Dart will be large enough to take its place.. and thats been said over and over!.

The question was answered and has been answered... Multiple times even. Now we just repeat and rehash everything that has been said in three or four other threads. It wouldn't be Allpar if we didn't regeritate everything three or four time and jump to as many conclusions as possible.

General requirements for a classic Allpar rehash... Not all but the majority are required:

• Who is Bob Sheaves? It doesn't matter who he is... Just don't poke the bear!!!
• At least three assumed versions of what the Chrysler LLC vehicle line up should be and why.
• Bring back Plymouth and why.
• PT Cruiser was greatest car ever and was terribly abused by Daimler
• Phase out Dodge brand for Fiat brand in North America conspiracy theory <--- for Erik Latranyi so he can
• Phase put Chrysler brand for Lancia brand in North America conspiracy theory <--- for Erik Latranyi so he can
• Why we have SRT and Ram brand, see Plymouth above and Dodge Conspiracy theory.
• Complain about Fiat Studios (Salons as some people say) or lack there of.
• General trash talk of the 500, see 'salons' above or bring back Plymouth and why
• We want a 'B' segment Dodge instead of a 500. See general 500 trash talk or general Fiat xenophobia
• Bring back Imperial and why... regardless of any justifiable reason other than just because.
• Bring back 'cuda and why... regardless of any justifiable reason other than just because.
• I want a convertible Challenger and why... regardless of any justifiable reason other than just because.
• SRT is a brand now, it should have distinct vehicles all to it's own using only Plymouth names.
• I want a rear drive Avenger or an Avenger Coupe regardless of any justifiable reason other than just because.
• Challenger and/or LX cars are too heavy or fat or big or small or something, we just have to complain about them... especially when compared to Mustang or Camaro, or new Caprice, or the now defunct G8.
• General Jeep whine and moan
• Jeep Liberkee ®... Need I say more, see general Jeep whine and moan.
• Fiat Panda... See general Jeep whine and moan
• I want an Alfa or Alfa's are awesome
• General Fiat Xenophobia
• General Italian Xenophobia
• Sergio Marchionne... Sweater, comments he makes, etc.
• Name of <INSERT here vehicle>and why... See Dodge Dart (ie Hornet, Sundance, Shadow, Daytona, Neon, PoS, whatever freaking name you can think of)
• I want <INSERT namel mode>with no electronics and no options but I want SRT engines and suspensions for no more $9,999
• Dodge Dart vs Fiat 500... They HAVE TO BE direct competitors, regardless of the fact that they are two very different size vehicles that will be marketed to two different buyers, they have different sets of doors, we have no idea what the Dart will really cost, and they are known to have very different model/trim packages.
• Dart vs Avenger... we have to compare them to the nth degree now, dimensions and all! We also assume we know everything about the Dart. See 500 vs Dart for prime example.
• Will there be a new Chrysler TC by Maserati? then argue endlessly on why or why not and if the TC was really a LeBaron or not.
• What's a platform? What's a vehicle architecture? What are body codes? What's a 'bee hive'? What is flex manufacturing? Yeah I rolled them all together purposely cuz I could. See Bob Sheaves.
• General Jeep whine and moan... Yeah I put it again, just because. Nukizer or any factory produced Jeep truck, Cherokee XJ, and fixed steel roof Wrangler go here.
• Vehicle instrumentation or lack there of. All vehicles, regardless of consumer, customer, or enthusiast should have complete gauge packages so the dash board looks like the scene in Airplane! when Ted Striker looks at the instrument panel for the first time
• Consumer Reports blows chunks.
• Jalopnik. See Consumer Reports blows chunks.
• C-Evo, CUSW, C-Evo+, CUSW+... aaaaaaarrrrrrrrgggggghhhhhhh. Everyone is an expert, regardless of the fact that there are no official details.
• What is Ralph's position at Chrysler LLC. Is he really God?
• New Dart is wider than it's Alfa counterpart because American's are too fat.
• DaimlerChrysler merger. Do I really need to elaborate?
• Cerberus. Do I really need to elaborate?
• Bob Nardelli... See Cerberus above.
• Grand Caravan vs Town & Country. DEATH RACE 2013!!! or maybe 2014 or who freaking knows?
• Journey is not a SWB Caravan replacement, although it technically, kind-a-sorta is... well maybe, no not really.
• Grand Cherokee and Durango are really Mercedes vehicles in disguise and why
• All L-Series vehicles are really mid 90's E-class Mercedes vehicles in disguise and why
• A Charger should not have four doors... me a river or jump in a lake.
• What's a Jeep? That's easy, any vehicle (regardless of shape) that has a 7 slot grille and trapezoidal wheel openings.
• How is 'Trail Rated' determined? See Bob Sheaves.
• Diesel engines and Jeep J8 (and its derivatives)... we will just continue to dangle both of these things in front of you as if it is forbidden fruit.
• The Compass is capable off road... MoparNorm said so! Let's just leave it at that.
• The first and second generation Dakota must, at all times, be held to a level of unobtanium. Nothing can ever be as good as or take the place of it.
• Robert Eaton --> This man collectivelely killed Chrysler, a true Allparian can never forgive or forget
• The Neon - this the bar that every Allparian has set for small fun cars, PERIOD.
• Lee Iacocca - Honored man within the confines of Chrysler. Say something bad about Lido, get banned.
• Every thread has to have at least one 'English expert'. His/her job is to have at least one or two "fixed that for you" regardless of whether it is a real spelling error or a change of the original poster's wording to express their own opinion. Either way, it's annoying
• Hindsight is always 20/20
• Every thread has to have at least one attempt by a Jeep 'expert' at a thread jacking... doesn't have to be successful but usually is.

It ain't official till its official and it gets really sad to read over and over again.

Mike

To forestall the "red button brigade" (you know who you are and so do I)....

My comments to dana44 were about unqualified statement about compression. I know what he meant, but I would bet my last dollar most did not.

Dana44 is probably one of the finest engine builders I know. It is just once in a while when he goes out to la-la land and forgets to explain things simply and with the qualifiers that make his statements true.

There was NO hostility or denegration of him intended or inferred by me.

...so leave the frickin' red button ALONE.

I want you all to know that I just typed out a long, detailed response to this thread.

 

And then I erased it. Because I had to.

 

 

But I can tell you this with absolute clarity: The overriding themes expressed here and in the DOJ thread have been delivered to the highest levels of Jeep and CG management.

 

I know -- 'cause I delivered 'em myself.

"We are not impressed with Consumer Reports. Despite some improvements, they’re still mediocre overall, scoring at or near the bottom of their respective categories and too low to be recommended."

From a consumer standpoint, would like to offer congratulations to ALL(assembly, mgmt., WHOMEVER) employees! Thanks for what you do!

Chrysler's brands have some ground to recover post bankruptcy in people's (i.e. non car nuts) minds. Everything from quality to integrity has to be proven to many of these folks...

Effective? Probably but not in a conventional way. Pandering? Maybe but that's advertising for better or worse...

This.

 

In my (admittedly not) very humble opinion, none of the F-C Suberbowl ads are, or were, aimed directly at moving product.  They are image ads.  There are a lot (and I mean a lot) of people that only remember the Ford/Mopars of the beginning of the Iaccoca era (they saved a company, so I am not complaining. I am simply stating my observations).  These ads were meant to tell people, that when it is time to buy a car, Mopar is the go to company.  I have no issues with an Italian based owner pimping American product and exploiting American Patriotism.  As long as it is authentic.  I have zero issues with patriotism. As long as it is authentic. I have no issues with another country hoisting our flag next to theirs, and saying thanks. We owe it to them, and they owe it to us. 

 

I dislike war, death, pain, and suffering, but I realize it is part of life. 

 

I disliked the ad, not because it wasn't a good ad.  It was a fantastic ad. I disliked it becasue it made me think again, about how much I dislike a certain side of myself. I have caused much more pain in this life than the love I have created in it.  Everyday, I have tried to make up for it. If you want to hear my story, come sit with me, and we'll talk, but I'd rather just talk about cars, and video games, and my kids, and my lovely wife (not neccessarily in that order). 

On the Ram AD:

I am incredibly dissapointed in the ignorance of the internets, the # of people who are mad becasue it started with "on the 8th day God created farmers" and how they all think that is making a huge push on christianity, and then on top of that how many people are complaining STILL how Chrylser took a "bailout" and that they wont buy a Ram for all of those reasons

 

Not realizing that;

 

A.it was a Paul Harvey Speech form the FFA convention, not written for the AD.

B Chrysler paid back all owed to the Goverment, like any responsible person should do with their debt to their loaner.

 

Sorry for my short rant, yes I know I can't fix stupid.

 

I loved the commerical, being a farmer, and FFA member myself; not to mention a huge fan of "And that's the rest of the story"

 

As one of the Jewish members of this forum, I find it repulsive that some people get upset at the spirituality of this ad.  After all, the creation story isn't "owned" by only one religion.  I guess they are upset at the picture of a church and of people sitting at the dinner table, praying in a way that many of my Christian friends pray?

 

Why should that bother ANYONE?  When will we, as a nation, recognize that the mark of a good human, and certainly the mark of a spiritual human, is not WHERE we pray or HOW we pray but rather WHERE we do what is right and just, and HOW we go about doing so?  If someone finds the courage to do what is right in life at a church or a synagogue or mosque, or at the dinner table or even at a campfire, what does that matter?  What matters is that they find that courage and that they do what is right.

 

This ad was about being selfless and doing what is right.  About making a difference, even when nobody else is watching.  That is what all legitimate religions preach.  It is also what we all hope our American culture preaches as well.  What makes the ad so powerful is that farmers are the perfect role models of this behavior. 

 

 

On a COMPLETELY different note....did anyone notice how this wasn't just an ad for Dodge Ram (or farmers)?  It was also an ad of Case Tractor!  I thought that was a VERY intelligent way of cross-promoting a Fiat Industrial partner...

Do we know when it goes on sale?

Production currently scheduled for early January. At dealers ~late January/February

Pricing, however, remains a mystery.

U.S.= under final review.

Canada = $43,995 base MSRP (vs $47,995 for standard SRT). Only 3 options - 245/45ZR20 perf tires, HID, 6-spkr audio w/276w amp

One quick word on Chrysler vs Gm earnings: I've been here before.

In the early 1990s / late 1980s, GM made money and Chrysler ... didn't. Chrysler was spending tons of money on the future -- the CTC, the cab forward cars, the 2.0, and some bets that didn't pay off (two stroke).

A few years later Chrysler was the world's most profitable automaker, the only company in the US with above average loyalty AND above average conquests, while GM was... in pain.

I put it to you that Chrysler is not declaring large profits now because they are sinking boatloads of cash into facilities and engineering and marketing.

Don't detune the Viper. Look at the Corvette and Porsche. They both offer cheaper, less powerful versions than the 'iconic' versions, they versions that everybody thinks of when the names come up. You can get a Corvette or a Boxster for under $50,000.

And now every feckless balding middle-aged accountant having a midlife crisis drives one, purely on image alone. In a town of 30,000, I see about a dozen late-model Corvettes or Porsches around-and NONE of them are respectable versions, like a Z06 or a proper 911. (There's also one guy who owns 2 Ford GTs, and daily drives one of them, but he also races them, so it's actually pretty awesome).

I don't want the streets flooded by a plague of $50,000 V8 Vipers, like rolling metaphorical penis enlargements. The Dodge Viper is supposed to be an exclusive and absolutely insane monster car, the kind of thing that mainly appeals only to real car enthusiasts who will appreciate it, and understand that it may also kill them if they look at it the wrong way, not a tool for fat old men to try and pick up schoolgirls in.

Not too long ago people were complaining that Fiat had no skin in the game. Now that they are stepping up to the plate and plunking down their cash so they have skin in the game people are not happy with that either. I guess some people are not happy unless people's lives are upended on a daily basis, as long as it's not their life. I have seen more positive management decisions come out of this man in the last 24 months then has came out of Auburn Hills since Iacocca left.

Let's see now....

It is a serious design issue?

Drivers are told not to perform an action.
Drivers perform an action when told not to do it.

...and it's Chrysler's problem drivers are idiots and destroy their cars.


Yep, makes perfect sense.










...and people wonder why cars cost so much. Engineers cannot design out willful ignorance (defined as "intentionally ignoring the manufacturers requirements, because the person thinks they know better than those people that build, test, develop, and destroy cars to make those production cars safer").

See inline comments in bold:

Bob,

What I'm curious about is whether MoparNorm is accurate when he claims that the Trail Rated Patriot with Freedom Drive II can't hold a candle to the stock Cherokee,...

No, he is not correct. Trail Rated is a pass/fail test regimen, NOT a "better than" or graded test. Either it does meet the specs, or it doesn't, same as the formal military testing.

This does NOT mean the Patriot is the same as the XJ-it is NOT. BUT in the Trail Rating tests, they both pass. Change the test requirements and you can make either seem better than the other. Patriot rides a heck of a lot better than the XJ ever did, within it's limitations. Cherokee (XJ) could handle a greater RMS variation.

.... that the Trail Rated Liberty can't hold a candle to the stock Cherokee, etc. -- and your perceptions of whether it is possible to design a Jeep Cherokee/Liberty that:

1. Can be built interchangeably with midsized cars Yes
2. Can be built so it is affordable, that is, costs no more than current Liberty NO
3. Can match the Cherokee/Liberty in just about all off-road situations, and beat it where possible -- without any more damage than the Cherokee would sustain Yes
4. Has similar or better gas mileage versus current Cherokee/Liberty Yes
5. Has similar or better interior space as the Cherokee. Maybe-not sure here...

I believe that's the list of criteria people would use to determine whether a true Cherokee replacement is being made, unless I'm missing something.

I'm also curious about whether you believe, if such a vehicle is possible, that it can be built within current corporate constraints. Yes, IF costs can be contained.

I would assume that the best path to such a vehicle would be a return to the basic Cherokee suspension architecture, with whatever materials and engineering changes are merited by the march of technology. Not necessarilly...depends on the overall tradeoffs that determine costs.

I don't know, however, whether Chrysler has the people in place to do the engineering AND to approve it AND to push for it in the first place.

I personally believe the Liberty went wrong primarily because the Daimler people believed every vehicle must have the same type of rear suspension.

See just whom tried to shut me up again (FThorn) with the red button again on my previous post. Too bad these idiots can't "man up" and have to use a sneaky way of disagreeing with my posts, thereby proving my point of not being able to confront me with facts, so resorting to underhanded crap to try to undermine my comments.

...and people wonder why I don't care about continuing to provide information anymore.

Wow. It's amazing the reactions to this.
 

The Dart GT is in the final stages of durability testing, looking like it will be a 2014 meaning August/Sept

Ralph doesn't state if that means "available to order, available to buy off the floor, or production begins." If we knew the original tweet made to Ralph, that might provide some context.

And for what it's worth, the only statement made to availability on the press release back in January - 4 months ago - was "Production of the 2013 Dodge Dart GT will begin in the second quarter 2013."

The only change made that I can see here is that it's been delayed a quarter and the change in model year from 2013 to 2014.

Focus on this...durability testing. Is that something you want them to rush though or skimp on? I would hope not, if you actually plan on buying one.

But, hey...let's just sit and complain about how Chrysler is screwing up everything and no one can do their jobs correctly without knowing exactly what all is entailed in bringing an all-new powertrain and suspension bits to market.

I wonder if I am the only one who is fed up with all the negativity spewing from just a handful of old timers who write on this board.

I appreciate criticism of Chrysler's management when something comes up that is objectionable or even just questionable. However, some folks just keep writing critical posts, keep repeating the same old whining in every topic, at the slightest chance. Guys, we know you live in the rosy memories of a long gone past! This is today. The issue is survival: Chrysler went down the drain twice before, regardless of the fact (or perhaps because of it) that they were building the old classics you guys pine for. For Chrysler to survive, they needed a change of management style and a new way to design cars that are lighter and more fuel efficient. As a byproduct of these requirements, they also ride much better than the heavy barges of old.

Somehow, this constant whining and criticism of everything (almost, anyway) that is done by the new management are making this fine board less interesting, more repetitive and seemingly run by the critics.... 

There is much going on at Chrysler/FIAT, lots of exciting new cars, new technologies being introduced, new markets being opened up... and all we hear is constant repetition of the death of a Brand or how today's Chrysler engineers do not know how to design a suspension system, while our local "experts" think they could teach them how to do their work.

End of rant.

I wonder if I am alone in feeling this way.

I agree with you, but if Nissan offered him something, believe me Fiat has the money to do it, they are so proud that if Fred came to them and said what an offer he was having, those Italians rather let him go.

He knows a lot about Chrysler and the RAM,just hope those Italians will not act as with MR. DON CORLIONE.

no offense, but if you feel you must express this kind of disprespect and are willing to go as far as implying that Marchionne is from the Mafia, then you should leave the company ASAP.

The PT is a great example where a company with all the research, data and surveys totally missed the target demographic.

 

Perhaps this will happen with the Cherokee as well, but if I were in management and looked at the comments on Facebook, Allpar, Detroit News, etc. I would be quaking in my boots right now.

 

Yes, the internet is a jaded place where cowards can hide behind pseudonyms and say the most incendiary things.  Given that, there is an element of truth in some that is posted.  It just takes a sober look to separate the wheat from the chaff.

 

With regard to this thread, the Death of Jeep is about more than just XJ versus KL.  It is more than solid axles versus independent.  It is about heritage, roots and what makes Jeep so valuable that it will be a major international brand.  If you do not understand how Jeep got here and where it is heading, then you do not understand branding, business nor the value of something more than the sum of its parts and should think before commenting.

Missed all this.

 

I am a big fan of Top Gear, but you have to realize something about the show.  It looks like it is all "ad lib, run what ya brung, off the cuff, and improvised".  I will tell you this: it is one of the most tightly scripted shows anywhere. 

 

Motorweek’s editorial is written after the data is gathered, and the driving and filming are done.  Top Gear writes their editorial and then tells the production crew to film that editorial.  They knew what they were going to write, before they even saw the car.  They knew it was going to be a preprod.  They knew what to look for, and were told to do that during filming.  They are not amateurs at what they do, any more than Mopar is an amateur at what they do.  I like Top Gear, but you have to take it for what it is.  It is less an informative show, and more a funny diversion.

 

In series 14, they reviewed a Hawk 3000.  This is a spot on, using factory drawings, as exact as possible Lancia Stratos replica. The "LAP" of that Lancia/Hawk Stratos/3000 was actually about 15 laps.  They couldn’t get the car to spin, the Stig came in, and discussion was had.  He went back out, did laps, and purposefully spun out.  The Hawk people were furious, about the whole thing, and about how the car was reviewed.  The car that was shown was actually a rally racer that was all but dead, and had been rebuilt ground up in about three days to meet the shows production schedule.  If the show does not like you, then you will get a bad review no matter what.  If the show likes you (Benz) you get stellar reviews. 

 

I am not worried at all, about what Top Gear says about anything, any more than I would care what the Brady Bunch said about a car.  

 

Sending a full production car would have meant missing series 19, and moving to 20.  Now, in series 20, Top Gear will do the Viper again (likely), and just as likely, it was arranged when the preprod was given to them in the same way the ZR1-Viper rematch was (likely) scheduled when RG lent MT that pre-prod Viper.  Top Gear loves stuff like that.  They get to hammer the car, then later they get to come back to it to say "we showed you a preprod last year… it didn’t go well for the Viper… well… now we have a real Viper... Let’s see if we can have any fun with it".  Like Henry II di when Thomas Beckett was murdered, take a few lashings and you can come out looking lots better in the end.

 

Take the longview folks.  This is RG building a rapport with the show.  Up to now Mopar has hated the show and the show has hated Mopar, and Mopars have gotten terrible reviews.  Give RG some credit.  I wouldn't be suprised to see RG hisself on the show doing a hot lap, and pulling an ACR out of his back pocket (which they will love); and, RG is no slouch behind the wheel.   (EDIT: I would bet a paycheck, and I am well paid, that RG is dying to do a hot lap.  Buying his way into a hot lap with an ACR for them, is something the show would eat up.)

 

You have to get burnt to slay dragons. 

This has the potential to be one of the stupidest decisions in the history of Chrysler. BOTH minis are the leading seller for their brand.
If Marchionne wants to have a smaller CUV type version then build it but keep the two full sized versions going.
IF the CUV sells, then and only then, do you kill off the weakest version, if that is even an issue.
To date the Journey hasn't hurt Grand Caravan ( nor did it replace sales lost by the termination of the shorter Caravan).
This will be the blunder that Sergio fears and it will be by his hand.