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GM pushing laws that make Google Autonomous illegal without FCA

14K views 142 replies 36 participants last post by  redriderbob 
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#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
The draft bill being considered in Tennessee, for instance, says: “Only motor vehicle manufacturers are eligible to participate in a SAVE project, and each motor vehicle manufacturer is responsible for the safe operation of its participating fleet.”

This suggests companies like Uber or Alphabet — which owns Waymo, previously known as the Google car project — may not be able to roll out their own self-driving cars in these states. Both companies are developing self-driving car technology, but neither manufactures vehicles.
"GM supports restricting who can deploy self-driving cars because “public acceptance of the technology is going to be very critical,” said Harry Lightsey, a top GM lobbyist. “If somebody is allowed to put technology on the roads and highways that proves to be unsafe, that could have very harmful repercussions.”
A series of U.S. state laws could prevent Uber or Google from operating self-driving cars (at http://www.recode.net/2017/2/25/14738966/self-driving-laws-states-gm-car-makers )

GM pursues self-driving and self-interest | News, Sports, Jobs - Tribune Chronicle (at http://www.tribtoday.com/news/business/2017/02/gm-pursues-self-driving-and-self-interest/ )
Mary Barra and GM Legal have came up with language of "only motor vehicle manufacturers" which is very clever and sneaky.

But it's only a matter of time before such legislation shows up on the Federal level with GM being the big backer. On the Federal level FCA will become the big winner of the legislation due to Alphabet/Google inability to find a real Partner Automaker other than FCA.

Sergio and the Agnelli family can negotiate monetization of Alphabet/Google ("Waymo")'s Autonomous System,and given the ability of Alphabet/Google to extract Revenue (especially as you travel,ads and suggestions can interact with you while you travel to your destination).

...
 
#5 ·
I think the societal aspects of self-driving automobiles is problematic to say the least. Who will insure these vehicles and who will be at fault in accidents? what happens to those who cannot afford these self-driving cars. What happens when a human driven car does something a self-driving car doesn't expect? We already have deteriorating skills due to the limited automated functions found in most cars (automatic transmissions, abs, awd, traction control, etc). That being said, I also feel that without some serious introspection as a society (ha!) we gonna end up with self-driving cars regardless of the consequences.
 
#6 ·
The technical aspects are more than solvable. In no uncertain terms, autonomous driving cars will (soon but quite yet, give it three to five years) be better at driving than 99% of humans. And that, in my opinion, is being generous, to human drivers. Other autonomous vehicles have existed for decades. Planes, trains, ships, etc. Aircraft automation has existed for a very, very long time.

The social aspects of autonomous cars will be decided once folks realize how good they are going to be.

That said, they can have my truck when i am dead.
 
#23 ·
The technical aspects are more than solvable. In no uncertain terms, autonomous driving cars will (soon but quite yet, give it three to five years) be better at driving than 99% of humans. And that, in my opinion, is being generous, to human drivers. Other autonomous vehicles have existed for decades. Planes, trains, ships, etc. Aircraft automation has existed for a very, very long time.

The social aspects of autonomous cars will be decided once folks realize how good they are going to be.

That said, they can have my truck when i am dead.
I don't necessary believe all the hype about autonomous cars being safer (and by autonomous cars, I mean ones without a driver, brake pedals, or steering wheels like the stupid idea Ford has). Planes, trains and ships will always have someone at the helm ready to take over manual controls when the systems fail. Face it, the technology is not perfect. How many times has our phones or Uconnect farted without warning? Imagine if a braking or some other system were to fail in one of these drones.
 
#7 ·
People who doubt autonomous vehicles display the same thinking as those who think robots cannot build cars.
 
#47 ·
I'm a robotics engineer and agree that autonomous vehicles are a very, very long way away from being mainstream... :p:D I'm very familiar with how vision systems and image tracking works and the total chaos of real streets is not an easy thing to program. IMO, the first legit major step for any of it to work properly is every single vehicle on the road needs to communicate with each other. This at least dramatically reduces the programming and algorithms needed to predict potential crash situations. I think I read recently that the US Gov has or is putting a mandate in that all vehicles will have this technology by 2025 or something. I think that alone will save many, many lives with different systems. The other hard part is the pedestrian and other odd anomalies that vision systems struggle with reliably detecting.

It will happen eventually though, like 2118. ;)
 
#9 ·
I hate the thought of autonomous driving, but if it means ALL the lines on the highway get painted more often than once a decade and the potholes are filled, maybe it isn't completely a bad thing..... Seriously, I live in a part of the country where dirt roads and unmarked county blacktop (ok, mostly just hard surface gravel and potholes) are the norm. How will self-driving cars deal with that? Unless they can "see" the holes, they will have bent rims and flat tires all day long, not to mention an incredibly jarring ride. How does it adjust to washboard dirt roads that bounce a vehicle out of control? How does it know to stop because there is 6" of water running across the highway?

Call me skeptical. Yes, many people are unskilled drivers, but there are still plenty of decisions being made while driving that I don't see autonomous vehicles making - yet.
 
#15 ·
I hate the thought of autonomous driving, but if it means ALL the lines on the highway get painted more often than once a decade and the potholes are filled, maybe it isn't completely a bad thing..... Seriously, I live in a part of the country where dirt roads and unmarked county blacktop (ok, mostly just hard surface gravel and potholes) are the norm. How will self-driving cars deal with that? Unless they can "see" the holes, they will have bent rims and flat tires all day long, not to mention an incredibly jarring ride. How does it adjust to washboard dirt roads that bounce a vehicle out of control? How does it know to stop because there is 6" of water running across the highway?

Call me skeptical. Yes, many people are unskilled drivers, but there are still plenty of decisions being made while driving that I don't see autonomous vehicles making - yet.
Unfortunetly that will never happen . Bad roads will always be the norm .
 
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#11 ·
I welcome autonomous cars - not for myself, but for the distracted drivers I see each morning staring into their rectangles as they "drive" down the road. Drifting out of lanes, almost failing to stop at red lights, sitting at green lights with cars behind them honking... these are the ones that need the autonomous cars.
A police officer had a an apt name for this - "The Red Light Prayer".
 
#16 ·
God and Mother Nature will keep this away from some States and most of the Provinces.....Thank you.
 
#17 ·
I'll Pass...

Will autonomous cars be able to go over the speed-limit??
- Like when I'm running late??
- When I just want to hear the roar of my Hemi??

Will autonomous cars be able to pass in the right lane??
- When Aunt Susie is driving 50mph in 60mph zone in the left lane because she is scared of cars merging from the right?
- When Mr. Joe Regular is in the passing lane trying to teach you a lesson by going the same speed as the car in middle lane?
- When I just want to hear the roar of my Hemi??

Or more importantly... When I just want to hear the roar of my Hemi?? lol.

I agree with @Muther,... They can have my keys when I pass on to Glory.
 
#19 ·
From the little I gather, it seems like there will be two paths that the makers will take, one will be a car that is wholly dedicated to autonomous driving, with human controls as back up. The other will be the other way around, with the human as the primary driver and the AI as the back up.

I would love to be able to let the car do the work in stop and go, and on the loooooooooooooooong boring miles on The midwestern interstates. I'd also like to be able to drive along a jaunty county road then get out at my friend's front door and tell the car to out back and park in the barn.

Give all the stupid boring driving to it, and save the juicy stuff for me.
 
#24 ·
Here are some facts that I extrapolated regarding autonomous cars:

  • There development has absolutely nothing to do with safety. In fact, the developers could care less about how many people die on the roads. It is about the $$$$$$. However, safety is a good selling point to a skeptical public and naïve politicians.
  • I would be that 10, 15 or even 20 years from now, the best selling vehicles will still be the F-150, Ram, and Silverado- not the Chevy Bolt or the steering wheel less, brake pedal less drone that Ford is developing.
  • There are some idiots in Silicon Valley that want to ban driving altogether and have all of us tool around in pink piles of crap like the Google Pod. GM (Ford and FCA for that matter) know that they will not exist if they take the element of choice away from the customer. This is a way, much like how GM urged cities to replace streetcars with buses in 1950s, for the car companies to control the rollout of the tech, perhaps tap new markets, while protecting the cash cows that keep them afloat.
 
#28 ·
The capacity for autonomous cars to exceed human ability is staggeringly huge. Simply put, not now, but certainly within the next decade, no human will be able to do what an autonomous car can do. I am telling you now, they WILL be better drivers than we are. Unless derailed by some unseen force, it will happen, and it will happen in spite of any legislation against it.

In my (not uninformed) opinion, it is not a matter of if, but when. As for the how? It will be integrated into the existing technology?

The processor power to get his done is now more than there. The code is there and improving everyday. The current issues all deal with the predictive analysis required to anticipate the actions of the very same idiot drivers we deal with today. The stupid drivers are a problem for us, and for the AI's.
 
#29 ·
Like many here, I resent our robot overlords.

There was a time when people considered talking to machines to be de-humanizing. I'm the person who presses 1 and 9 rather than say "yes" or "no". Lately I've found these smart systems cannot understand tones, only voices. I make a point to yell the most vile curse words I can think of after telling the condescending robot "make a reservation". I suppose I have a hope that somewhere a human is listening.

Having said all that... It's coming. You need only look at the arguments being made, "if it saves just one child", etc. And of course there is no higher calling than saving that one life.... Millennials , Gen Z, etc. won't likely storm the beach at Normandy, end slavery, or burn at the stake. They view autonomous cars as safe-spaces to play their Pogoman games or update the Facebooks. Even if it takes 20-years to implement (which it won't) I'll still be a long way from a natural dirt-nap.

I also think the manufacturers are marching themselves right off a cliff, but it's happening at the point of a gun called progress. Eventually it all ends up as a globally-sourced commodity. Not much reason to care about cornering ability when a robot can drive a '65 Chevy Impala through a slalom faster than the average no-skill human piloting an '18 Alfa-Romeo Gelato. The best I can hope for is the Chrysler brand continuing to be relevant right up until the automotive equivalent of the Grey Goo Theory hits the showroom. Then there will be no passing to mourn. If LG merged with Samsung who would really give a damn? The cell phone is a soulless commodity that becomes worthless each time an improvement is made. Your future car will be the same way.
 
#39 ·
Like many here, I resent our robot overlords.
Lol,... This

My wife has an Outback with Eyesight and while its awesome in stop and go traffic or on the highway the automatic braking has done its share of making me upset. In Florida we have a lot of 4 and 6 lane roads where traffic will back up in one of the lanes and the other lanes are clear. I have had several situations where I notice this up ahead and signal to change lanes begin to merge only to have the Eyesight determine I'm approaching the car in front of me too fast even though I'm changing lanes and brake me right as I'm merging into the next lane. This could potentially cause another car in the lane I'm merging into to run into the back of me. Likewise on I-95 I was passing a semi and it began to drift into my lane, to avoid being hit I drifted a little toward the left shoulder. The Lane assist began to jerk my wheel back toward the truck and it became a small game of tug of war with the car to avoid getting hit by the truck. There's nuisances that still need to be worked out. I'm not completely convinced full autonomy is going to work either, but this half measure isn't perfect. Unfortunately people (like my wife) are convinced this is autonomous enough to allow greater and greater distractions on the road.
And this is exactly why I do not want or need any of these techno-nannies on my vehicles... I don't want to have to argue, plead or bargain with my car when I decide to do what it may deem as irrational or illogical.


For the posters that point to planes, trains and ships as pioneering autonomous technology that is safe...

Planes - According to the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, there are 5,000 planes flying in U.S. airspace at any given time as of 2014. How many airplanes are in the air right now? (at https://www.reference.com/vehicles/many-airplanes-air-right-now-b5ae539cb8eabc27 )

Trains - As we know run on dedicated tracks with little to no overlapping/intersecting rails for miles at a time.

Ships - the U.S.-flag domestic cargo fleet supporting this massive inland and ocean trade was made up of more than 38,000 vessels

Dallas, TX - Number of Vehicles Currently Registered: 23,886,263 as of 2016.
New York City, NY - Number of Vehicles Registered: 2,107,321 as of 2015... And this is JUST the City, not the State
Los Angeles, CA - Number of Vehicles Registered: 7,533,131 as of 2015.

To add to the sheer number of vehicles on the road, we have intersections, on and off ramps, gas-station and mall entrances/exits about every 100-200 feet. Not to mention pedestrians, wild-life, bicyclists and other natural hazards like, rain, snow and winds when separated from other 2-40 ton vehicles by near inches.

So saying autonomous vehicles can be done and can work at present, on the premise that planes, trains and ships already have "versions" of that technology is comparing Apples to Elevators.

Can a completely autonomous vehicle happen??? Probably, but not without MAJOR changes in the infrastructure and management of our Highway and travel systems... And we may be a good decade or two away.
 
#33 ·
I think you mean one of two directions. Having both co-exist on the roadways would be a legal nightmare. Obviously their will be an overlap period where autonomous, semi-assisted and "normal" cars will be on the roads together, but once the tech for fully autonomous vehicles is standardized, manufacturers will no sooner offer "regular cars" than one-star crash rated vehicles.

...unless; a special class of insurance is created that allows the wealthy few to continue driving as a hobby on public roads. Something akin to riding a horse circa 2017, but with much more potential for injury.
 
#32 ·
My wife has an Outback with Eyesight and while its awesome in stop and go traffic or on the highway the automatic braking has done its share of making me upset. In Florida we have a lot of 4 and 6 lane roads where traffic will back up in one of the lanes and the other lanes are clear. I have had several situations where I notice this up ahead and signal to change lanes begin to merge only to have the Eyesight determine I'm approaching the car in front of me too fast even though I'm changing lanes and brake me right as I'm merging into the next lane. This could potentially cause another car in the lane I'm merging into to run into the back of me. Likewise on I-95 I was passing a semi and it began to drift into my lane, to avoid being hit I drifted a little toward the left shoulder. The Lane assist began to jerk my wheel back toward the truck and it became a small game of tug of war with the car to avoid getting hit by the truck. There's nuisances that still need to be worked out. I'm not completely convinced full autonomy is going to work either, but this half measure isn't perfect. Unfortunately people (like my wife) are convinced this is autonomous enough to allow greater and greater distractions on the road.
 
#44 ·
ADAS systems are FAR from any autonomous system. They were designed with very simple logic, low processing power, and limited sensing capability.

This is not a passing fad, the first autonomous cars were dreamed up in the early 1900's, GM (and others) had autonomous cars in the 50's and 60's, and there was a plan to build the highway system with infrastructure to support autonomy. The processing power and sensing technology is now to the point where it's viable without changes to infrastructure (though it could benefit from some).

Some of the pursuit of autonomy and semi-autonomy is about safety. Consumers are asking for it. People want to play with their phones, or do other things rather than driving, and they are doing it regardless of autonomy. Deaths on the roadways increased last year and probably will again this year. I've heard it compared to a 737 crashing every single day, yet no one bats an eye.

It's also about $$$ saved from productivity. Use long haul trucking as an example: they have a high turnover rate and supposedly a high number of driver shortages, plus they don't make that much money so it's harder and harder to fill those jobs. An autonomous rig can solve much of this problem.

Someone pointed out how much people seem to be abusing the Tesla semi-autonomous system, yet even with those anecdotal videos they have data that shows that Autopilot cars crash 40-50% less
 
#36 ·
So when did the automatic take over as the dominant transmission? Mid 1980's? Cruise control in the majority of vehicles? 1990's? How about other features that have ceded the majority of control to the vehicle systems? Power windows? Automatic headlights? Blind spot monitors? Automatic braking? Vehicles have been marching towards automation for a long time. It's laughable that some think autonomous vehicles is just a passing fad.:rolleyes:
 
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#43 ·
He is a quiz question. In what year was the first fully autonomous trip made across the United States, Los Angeles to New York, in a light vehicle? (meaning your typical car, pickup, van, and not a heavy truck, or things like that.)

An Autonomous Car Is Going Cross-Country for the First Time (at https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.wired.com/2015/03/delphis-self-driving-car-taking-cross-country-road-trip/amp/ )


That article, and others in the news, would have you believe it was done just recently. Actually, it happened in 1997 in a Chevy sedan. Before that it happened in a Chevy van, but in that one, the human had to do the parking. The tech is there, it's just not cheap yet.

The technology to fly and land an airplane, on an aircraft clarifier, at sea, at night, in a storm, has existed for many decades.

As said, the problem is with predictive analysis. As stated in other posts, predicting the behavior, and choosing the corrective action, with so many human driven cars is the difficult part.
 
#56 ·
I think that if these companies are so sure that their autonomous cars are so safe, it is time they and the government put their money where their mouth is. If a person is injured while riding in one of these drones, it is a $1Million fine. If they are killed, a $100 Million Fine. If an innocent pedestrian or bystander is killed by one of these drones- a $1Billion fine. Harsh? Yes! But what many do not realize is that autonomous cars require nearly perfect roads with well-marked and maintained pavement. The road commissions cannot even fill a pothole right in the state of Michigan let alone spend hundreds of billions of dollars to make the roads autonomous friendly. It is time the Googles and other purveyors of this tech come up with some dollars to fix the infrastructure without dumping the onus on the taxpayer and they reaping the profits.
 
#52 ·
I don't think most people expect just how quickly autonomous technology and electric cars are going to become mainstream.

In maybe 10 years when the government mandates all new cars to have autopilot, I just hope that the system is fully defeatable and that they still make V8 cars that are affordable! Hey, I'm all for advancing technology and protecting the environment; I just actually enjoy connecting with a thrilling, rumbling machine too.

It is exciting to see Google partner with FCA though and I do wish that partnership well.
 
#61 ·
Most of those "prophets" who are posting about potential disasters from autonomous vehicles are wrong.

My adaptive cruise control from 2008 is intelligent enough to shut off when the sensor gets covered in snow or I drive into a sunrise. It shuts off.

To believe autonomous vehicles will drive in a snow squall or heavy fog is not very tech savvy. They pull over and stop.

These systems have better judgement than humans when deciding what conditions are safe to drive in.
 
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#62 ·
Most of those "prophets" who are posting about potential disasters from autonomous vehicles are wrong.

My adaptive cruise control from 2008 is intelligent enough to shut off when the sensor gets covered in snow or I drive into a sunrise.

To believe autonomous vehicles will drive in a snow squall or heavy fog is not very tech savvy.

These systems have better judgement than humans when deciding what conditions are safe in o drive in.
That is true. But some makers want to build the cars without steering wheels and pedals.
 
#64 ·
Hope I'm long gone from this earth when/if autonomous vehicles arrive as the only choice...... I NEVER wish to be engaged in a conversation that stemmed from a question such as' YOU MEAN YOU ACTUAL DROVE THE CAR YOURSELF!!" Nope, not for me. Not now. Not ever. If this country thinks all technology is great, we're in a heap of trouble. The Terminator series was way ahead of its time but someone knew we'd be at least entertaining this "stuff".
 
#66 ·
Let me make sure I understand here. The argument for autonomous cars is 'saving lives', but the cost is quality of life. Just one more hobby/passion that for many is motivation and something to get excited about and for a few is one of the ONLY things to keep them going, and some we-know-better-than-you nannie wants to take that away. Whats the end game here? Making sure that a greater percentage of our population lives long enough to rot in a nursing home for the last 30-40 years of our lives? Umm...no sale.

Logically, this ends in economic disaster. Millenials now have job prospects that are nearly nil, and many people are either making a good living driving for Uber/Lyft or doing it as supplemental income to make ends meet. With autonomous cars, that's gone. The entire automotive industry would implode, and be reduced to just a very few globalized companies producing a bland dumbed down product with all the appeal of a light switch cover. The automotive aftermarket (billion dollar industry) would vanish, since who would even want to own a self driving eco-blob let alone customize it? The population is expanding yet the number of jobs isn't. With your car being your second largest investment well...*POOF* there goes a major source of motivation to even bother wanting to have a successful career.

Realistically, this kind of thing going 'mainstream' is probably inevitable in our lifetimes. And honestly, for about 60% of the population who only drive bland appliance grade minivans, CUVs and sedans as commuter/family haulers with no interest in driving its no big loss. Cars that appeal to enthusiasts like the Challenger, Wrangler, all the high end sports cars as well as tons of motorcycles...these wont fly as autonomous or electric vehicles and there are TRILLIONS of dollars being spent on them. The Baby Boomers are retirement age already, so they haven't much to worry about. Gen X and even a solid percentage of Millenials still comprise a LOT of active and passionate auto enthusiasts...I cant see our right to own/drive cars we want being taken from us without a MAJOR fight. At 43 y/o Im definitely concerned. Im one of those who says youll take my keys from my cold dead hands. If/when it comes to that, I still want to be young enough and strong enough to crack my share of skulls on the way down.
 
#67 ·
Let me make sure I understand here. The argument for autonomous cars is 'saving lives', but the cost is quality of life. Just one more hobby/passion that for many is motivation and something to get excited about and for a few is one of the ONLY things to keep them going, and some we-know-better-than-you nannie wants to take that away. Whats the end game here? Making sure that a greater percentage of our population lives long enough to rot in a nursing home for the last 30-40 years of our lives? Umm...no sale.

Logically, this ends in economic disaster. Millenials now have job prospects that are nearly nil, and many people are either making a good living driving for Uber/Lyft or doing it as supplemental income to make ends meet. With autonomous cars, that's gone. The entire automotive industry would implode, and be reduced to just a very few globalized companies producing a bland dumbed down product with all the appeal of a light switch cover. The automotive aftermarket (billion dollar industry) would vanish, since who would even want to own a self driving eco-blob let alone customize it? The population is expanding yet the number of jobs isn't. With your car being your second largest investment well...*POOF* there goes a major source of motivation to even bother wanting to have a successful career.

Realistically, this kind of thing going 'mainstream' is probably inevitable in our lifetimes. And honestly, for about 60% of the population who only drive bland appliance grade minivans, CUVs and sedans as commuter/family haulers with no interest in driving its no big loss. Cars that appeal to enthusiasts like the Challenger, Wrangler, all the high end sports cars as well as tons of motorcycles...these wont fly as autonomous or electric vehicles and there are TRILLIONS of dollars being spent on them. The Baby Boomers are retirement age already, so they haven't much to worry about. Gen X and even a solid percentage of Millenials still comprise a LOT of active and passionate auto enthusiasts...I cant see our right to own/drive cars we want being taken from us without a MAJOR fight. At 43 y/o Im definitely concerned. Im one of those who says youll take my keys from my cold dead hands. If/when it comes to that, I still want to be young enough and strong enough to crack my share of skulls on the way down.
When you start with the wrong premise, you reach the wrong conclusion. For those who enjoy driving, they'll be able to keep doing that at least for a very long time. For those who don't wish to drive in rush hour traffic, an electronic driver will be a godsend and add to productivity. It's my job to save lives - whether people waste their lives "rot(ting) in a nursing home" is up to the individual. Frankly I'd love some additional free time to pursue my interests.
 
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