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Make it here if you want to sell it here!

Discussion in 'Chrysler Chat' started by Andy4.7, Jan 3, 2017.

  1. Dave Z

    Dave Z It's me, Dave Staff Member Supporter

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    @duster92, We don’t get upset by Canada because they have strict environmental rules, high levels of education, similar tax structures and freedoms, and health care for everyone — in short, they are on a much more level playing field than Mexico. The Canadian government does not shoot or jail strikers or union organizers, and they don’t dump toxic waste into the middle of a village.

    As for the Great Depression, there were many factors, but also remember that the US had normal cycles of recessions and depressions, complete with bank failures, until FDR. He is the reason we remember the Great Depression — well, FDR and the Dust Bowl. There were horrible economic devastations in the US of similar scope, without the collapse of small farmers in the midwest, before, but thanks to FDR, when banks failed in later times, people did not lose their savings, so the real impact was far smaller; and we now had food stamps and such, too, which have a major impact. And, again, the whole Dust Bowl thing only happened once.
     
    Andy4.7, hemirunner426 and valiant67 like this.
  2. MJAB

    MJAB Member

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    I read the article You linked. What could I say, better I say nothing about since he doesn't essentially understand how taxation works in "VAT countries", that are 137, well that what Mr. Corsi writes.

    Some notes:
    1) in "VAT countries" all goods imported or not imported pay VAT tax. There are different taxation (as percentage applied on total value of the good + eventual transport), based on product, for example milk, bread, ... have lower taxation. Usually pharmaceutical products (not all) are not taxed by VAT.
    2) VAT is (in theory) a neutral tax for companies, since the taxation is on the good sold to final user.
    3) not all countries, even inside European Union, has the same rules at what time the VAT is paid.
    For example in Italy You pay VAT at every step (every invoice -> VAT) and, if You are not paid for any reason by your customer, You have to pay it (every month for big companies or three months for smaller, professionals, ...) and than You could after two year ask for rembursement (and maybe You'll wait 10 years to have back your money.. there are around 35 Euro billion of taxes non rembursed to companies in Italy).
    4) for sure an U.S.A. citizen doesn't understand VAT, since U.S.A. taxation system is made to favour purchase of goods and services by final customers (citizens).
    5) You made an export example of a vehicle pricelist or MSRP, why do You think is different for a local european company? At customs a company like FCA does not pay on MRSP, but on the value of the good that is in the invoice of FCA US LLC that for sure is not the price that You , as customer, pay your car.
    The pricelist You see for cars sold in European Union countries is retail the equivalent of MSRP, better to say is similar since what we in Italy is named "prezzo chiavi in mano" (price keys in the hands) include vehicle cost, destination, VAT and any other cost the dealer will charge (the only excluded costs are some small taxes, up to few hundred Euro and registration of the car). This was made so customer had an exact idea of final price of a car without hidden costs not showed with relevance in advertisement.

    Do You really think that here in Europe, and even more in some countries like Italy, there are no taxes on real estate, on labour, on financial service, on loans, social security, insurance of the workers, solidariety funds (for larger companies) for crisis on the sector (economic substain for workers of companies in trouble), ...

    And about Sergio Marchionne and countries government nannies of their automotive industry, well that is more about that that governments, jut to say two names Germany and France, are always ready to go against other companies of other European Union countries when there are infractions or are in difficult situation (no public aid rules).
    This same countries, when for example PSA had troubles, were ready to give aid out of general euuropean rules, with France making an Euro 7 billion loan to PSA and Renault (the last that is since decades partially owned by state) or Germany and France, very influent in BCE, making so that VW, BMW, ... knew before time and pushing them to transform their financial companies became banks so to get loans from BCE at 1% (FCA no since they didn't knew, now they have a bank, but they arrived two years later since a bank creation is no simple).
    Well than Germany and VW scandal, is well known, maybe by not so many, that they started a discredit campaign towards others in the intent to le pass "all guilty, none guilty".
    And before VW scandal, Germany, that always painted themselves as the ones that care about environment, blocked the new rules on car emissions (later we understood why).

    Maybe You should more worried about tax avoidance by large companies, even more for the ones in immaterial sector (for example Google, Apple, financial services, ...).
    Or maybe You should ask which country had increased most in last years the total wealth.
    Maybe You'll find some surprises and the flows maybe should go in a different direction.
    Or maybe it is that instead of looking outside one should look inside, who knows :)

    Publications from Credit Suisse, not some "fanatic sovversive" group.
    Publications
     
    FGA cheerleader and ScramFan like this.
  3. Lee N. Burns

    Lee N. Burns Member

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    I do apologize if you feel I was talking down. Obviously you have an appreciation for history, but really there are numerous pieces written on Japan's "Malaise Era". None that I've ever read talks about them suffering the ill effects of protectionism. In fact, I've explained many times on this forum that their electronics industry exists (and ours doesn't) because of it. You raised the idea of Herbert Hoover as protectionist; his infamy comes from the Great Depression. I don't think his policies caused the depression and I'm glad you don't think so either.

    If being someplace gives you understanding... I've been in the auto industry for decades. Perhaps robots and their associated automation "can" be designed in India by contractors, but they aren't. I would say the bulk of that work occurs in the industrial centers of Germany, Italy, Japan and yes... Detroit. Why in the world should we abandon that? The fact that you think all software can be serviced remotely (created?) in India tells me that you must have no experience in manufacturing. Perhaps for a cell phone app, but not hundreds of millions of dollars in automated tooling. You're also not addressing the other points I raised... Design, prototyping, development, testing, etc. Real physical objects, not lines of code.

    Truck and Taxi drivers are performing services... Isn't the service economy what's supposed to take the place of manufacturing? Weren't we all supposed to Uber each other around; grooming dogs, mowing lawns, eating at restaurants... producing nothing, yet somehow creating wealth?

    Finally I wish I could agree with your assessment of the Treaty of Versailles, but unfortunately it's become an "excuse" for the rise of Hitler in Europe. I'm sure you're aware of the Weimar Republic. I'm going to cut/paste to save myself some typing...

    ...In 1924 the German government adopted a plan for German economic recovery prepared by the American financier Charles G. Dawes. The Dawes Plan attempted to coordinate German reparations payments with a program of economic recovery whereby Germany was required to make only limited payments until 1929. To assist with the recovery, the Reichsbank was founded, and foreign credit, mainly from the United States, was filtered into Germany. As a result, between 1924 and 1929 German industry and commerce made unprecedented progress, and both the standard of living and real wages rose steadily. The Dawes Plan also provided for the withdrawal of French and Belgian troops from the Ruhr district.

    In other words Germany wasn't being crushed with debt, and it had begun to prosper. The 1929 Depression had worldwide consequences, as you mentioned. Hitler capitalized on the sudden downturn and...

    the NSDAP {Under Hitler's leadership}, denounced the republic and the "November criminals" who had signed the Treaty of Versailles. The postwar economic slump won the party a following among unemployed ex-soldiers, the lower middle class, and small farmers; in 1923 membership totaled 55,000. General Ludendorff supported the former corporal in his beer hall putsch of November 1923, an attempt to overthrow the Bavarian government... Had it not been for the economic depression of 1929, however, Hitler might have faded out of Germany's history. The depression greatly augmented political and social instability. By 1932 German unemployment figures had reached more than 6 million out of a population of 65 million. The situation caused the middle class, which had not fully recovered from the inflation of 1923, to lose faith in the economic system and in its future. The NSDAP exploited the situation, making an intensified appeal to the unemployed middle-class urban and rural masses and blaming the Treaty of Versailles and reparations for the developing crisis.

    In other words, to merely lay the rise of Nazism at the feet of the Treaty of Versailles is to buy into Hitler's propaganda. Hitler easily could have, and should have, been stopped when he began to militarize Germany. The war-weary leaders of the British and French governments appeased him instead, allowing him to take Czechoslovakia.
     
  4. MJAB

    MJAB Member

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    I am personally favourable to a change in international trade agreements, because the system that there is now is too shift towards biggest companies (and most are U.S.A. based or controlled).

    Deloitte Touche Tohmatsu Limited - "2016 Global Manufacturing Competitiveness Index"
    https://www2.deloitte.com/content/d.../gx-global-mfg-competitiveness-index-2016.pdf

    Maybe the problem in U.S.A. is more about internal redistribution, changing rules that were made to favour few companies.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2017 at 3:01 PM
  5. hmk123

    hmk123 Active Member Level III Supporter

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  6. hemirunner426

    hemirunner426 Member Level 2 Supporter

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    This is strictly my opinion...As far as I am concerned Americans and Canadians are like distant cousins,have there own opinions,policies and nuances but basically are friends forever.I have travelled USA a fair bit and feel at home most of the time.

    It would be a shame if Mr Trump wants to antagonize his distant relative.Hopefully he will realize that.

    I understand that if this is to political,it will be gone.
     
    Andy4.7 likes this.
  7. BobbiBigWheels

    BobbiBigWheels I'm likely at work... Ad-Free Member

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    Talk to the Windsor plant workers about that.
     
  8. Doug D

    Doug D Virginia Gentleman

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    That's probably one of the points in history current and future leaders could learn from. Appeasement does not work. Had they stood up to Hitler and called his bluff he may have backed down. But as you posted the Brits and the French were far more interested in avoiding conflict in the short term and WWI had ended barely 10 years before. War was coming. Appeasement only postponed it for a short while.

    Protectionism won't work in the long run. Better to use the threat of tariffs to open closed markets.
     
  9. jerseyjoe

    jerseyjoe Plymouth Makes It

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    1 trillion going to infrastructure, how about some $ for improving in country manufacturing. If it works for big oil it should work for industry.
     
    Andy4.7 likes this.
  10. jerseyjoe

    jerseyjoe Plymouth Makes It

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    If automation was done correctly the factories would still be here feeding local economies.
     
    page2171 likes this.
  11. Stratuscaster

    Stratuscaster Vaguely badass... Staff Member Supporter

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    And folks in Brampton. And Ingersoll. And Oshawa. And Oakville. And Alliston. And Cambridge. And Woodstock.

    No, Canada doesn't make any of their own cars at all. Such a poor 3rd-world country they must be. ;)
     
    AvengerGuy and BobbiBigWheels like this.
  12. dana44

    dana44 Well-Known Member Ad-Free Member

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    One of the big things being overlooked is the free trade itself. Canada does buy stuff from the USA, most of these other countries that businesses have moved to will only purchase certain and limited products from the USA, so it isn't free trade back and forth. This is what the issue is. A company moves to another country and it turned into one way trade, from the other country to the USA. What does China, Mexico, Japan, etc., which is the issue. It is the trade deficit of over $700 Billion dollars that is the issue on top of all the lost manufacturing jobs, not just the fact the manufacturing jobs are gone.
     
    Andy4.7 and Doug D like this.