13 replies to this topic

[News Feed]

Workers at Fiat's Cassino – Piedimonte San Germano plant are confronting an idle Christmas and a not-so-happy New Year. All 4,300 of the plant's employees have been furloughed through January 9, 2012 and they will be working just three days a week when they return. The Cassino plant builds the Fiat Bravo, Lancia Delta and Alfa Romeo Giulietta and total output is about 600 cars a day. The union workers, who have approved a Pomigliano-style labor contract, are waiting to see if a new vehicle will be assigned to their plant or if they will be working part-time for nearly a year waiting for the next generation Giulietta.

View the original, full post

[grant]

This plant will probably build out the coming chrysler / lancia c hatch wagon thingy. And the bravo replacement which is rumored to be a cuv to compete with the quashquai (which makes no sense to me).

[RVC]

I agree with your comment about the Bravo, I don't understand the logic in continuously dropping names/models and substituting them with entirely different ones. They should keep a C segment hatch named Bravo, and improve it in those areas where it was lacking (since the main issue was the chassis ,that area has already been taken care of anyways with the new COMPACT being built right alongside it, on the Giulietta line).
This is something that Asian and German companies have understood, keeping the same names and improving the MY until they become valid contenders, instead of dropping them if they don't immediately sell like crazy. Think of the golf, 3 series, Hyundai Tucson, Toyota corolla, honda civic, etc all valid examples. They weren't much when they came out, but they were improved YoY and now they have huge brand equity. Heck, I remember that in the 70s VW said that they could never compete with FIAT, and BMW could not dream of the technological leve used on Alfas! Remember what a joke the Japanese first, and then the Korean were? Look at them now; thy built brand equity and name recognition, and it helped IMO.

I think that this is a lesson both Fiat and Chrysler should learn and adopt, instead of shooting for the be all, end all model like they do, hoping that they get a winner every time. In short: they need MUCH better product management! They need to improve both the consistency and timing of model launches, refreshes, updates, schedule of releases for new engines, transmissions...this is all planned very carefully and very much in advance (years), and not as a jerk knee reaction to marketing trends or as a last minute chase of what the competition is offering.

Besides, the Dart can easily and relatively cheaply be adapted to a hatchback. It will already be sold as a Fiat branded sedan in some markets, so why not use it as a Bravo hatch in Europe as well?

Not saying FIAT shouldn't do a CUV, they definitely need something to compete with the runaway success of the quasquai and the Hyundai ix35, but they should call it something different and insist on the Bravo/Dart, instead of abandoning that segment altogether. It would be insane!

Edited by RVC, December 26, 2011 at 06:21 am.

[MoparNorm]

RVC, on December 26, 2011 at 06:15 am, said:

Besides, the Dart can easily and relatively cheaply be adapted to a hatchback. It will already be sold as a Fiat branded sedan in some markets, so why not use it as a Bravo hatch in Europe as well?

Some questions for you:
There is no evidence that the Dart isn't a "liftback", so are you saying a "wagon" version closer to the current (2012) Giulietta?
Also, will the C platform for Giulietta remain, or does it also move to a CUSW? Is that too large for Europe?
Sometimes Marchionne is unclear on what he says vs. what he does. His makes his pronouncement that there is too much over capacity in the world's automotive industry and works to consolidate Chrysler and Fiat by creating two platforms for essentially one car?
Is not the Lancia Delta that elusive "CUV"?

If there is any over capacity and brand confusion, it would seem, on the surface, to be at Fiat and not Chrysler.

[RVC]

Hi Norm! Yes, I see what you mean, but then again FIAT probably didn't imagine getting into the Chrysler acquisition and its resulting implications at the time when they were designing their platforms.

What I meant is that given that the Dart will supposedly be sold as a FIAT (with a different nose and tail of course) in other markets it would only make sense to standardize the aesthetics, and do a Bravo hatch using the same styling. Width and length are not an issue because the COMPACT was designed from the beginning to accept longer+wider floorplans, so theoretically you can use any line that produces a COMPACT and produce a CUSW/CUSW+ (which were modified and re-engineered in some of its components to add federalization, safety, strengthening, etc. but AFAIK didn't modify the platform itself).

Hatches are more popular than lift backs in Europe for the C segment. Partly is due to styling preferences, and partly to the fact that for a car that size people tend to not see the advantage of a sloping rear window (less vertical cargo space).

AFAIK right now nobody knows if they will move the giulietta to the larger floorplan or if they will keep it on the same when the refresh comes about. The main arguments for moving it to the new one was that it was needed if they were to sell it in the US, but lately Marchionne seemed to be abandoning that idea (shocking right?), and opting for the Giulia as the smallest of the lineup. Fom what I heard, they were also thinking about a Giulietta sedan version (Dart anyone?) but it was too large for Europe to be considered C-seg and too small for the US for a premium Brand (like a current gen 3-series). So apparently everything is still up in the air.

The Delta is a straight C-segment hatchback, not a CUV: don't let its profile fool you. The CUV that is being planned as a successor to the Bravo will be a cousin to the 2013 compass/patriot, and Alfa Romeo cXover. Like a quasquai or ix35; a car based SUV-lookalike basically. THAT platform (current Delta/Bravo) will be abandoned, and everything >my2011 will be based on the COMPACT/CUSW.

AFAIK within the next few years everything, be it FIAT or Chrysler, will be based on one of 5 platforms: MINI-A, SMALL-B, COMPACT-C/D, LX/RT~E_Evo-E, F. The last one is tricky as only Maerati so far will be using it, and I suspect its development is being made transparent to Chrysler's engineers. it would only make sense to create commonalities between this and the E-Evo, to share as many components as possible, but considering the target audience for Maserati they need to make sure that its performance is top notch. From this one they will also prduce the successor to the coupe and the future 8C. I've been wondering if the first incarnation could even come in the shape of the SRT Viper since according to Gilles(IIRC) Maserati engineers were called in to help out, though allegedly only with suspension tuning.

Edited by RVC, December 26, 2011 at 01:13 pm.

[MoparNorm]

RVC, on December 26, 2011 at 01:12 pm, said:

Hi Norm! Yes, I see what you mean, but then again FIAT probably didn't imagine getting into the Chrysler acquisition and its resulting implications at the time when they were designing their platforms.

What I meant is that given that the Dart will supposedly be sold as a FIAT (with a different nose and tail of course) in other markets it would only make sense to standardize the aesthetics, and do a Bravo hatch using the same styling. Width and length are not an issue because the COMPACT was designed from the beginning to accept longer+wider floorplans, so theoretically you can use any line that produces a COMPACT and produce a CUSW/CUSW+ (which were modified and re-engineered in some of its components to add federalization, safety, strengthening, etc. but AFAIK didn't modify the platform itself).

Hatches are more popular than lift backs in Europe for the C segment. Partly is due to styling preferences, and partly to the fact that for a car that size people tend to not see the advantage of a sloping rear window (less vertical cargo space).

AFAIK right now nobody knows if they will move the giulietta to the larger floorplan or if they will keep it on the same when the refresh comes about. The main arguments for moving it to the new one was that it was needed if they were to sell it in the US, but lately Marchionne seemed to be abandoning that idea (shocking right?), and opting for the Giulia as the smallest of the lineup. Fom what I heard, they were also thinking about a Giulietta sedan version (Dart anyone?) but it was too large for Europe to be considered C-seg and too small for the US for a premium Brand (like a current gen 3-series). So apparently everything is still up in the air.

The Delta is a straight C-segment hatchback, not a CUV: don't let its profile fool you. The CUV that is being planned as a successor to the Bravo will be a cousin to the 2013 compass/patriot, and Alfa Romeo cXover. Like a quasquai or ix35; a car based SUV-lookalike basically. THAT platform (current Delta/Bravo) will be abandoned, and everything >my2011 will be based on the COMPACT/CUSW.

AFAIK within the next few years everything, be it FIAT or Chrysler, will be based on one of 5 platforms: MINI-A, SMALL-B, COMPACT-C/D, LX/RT~E_Evo-E, F. The last one is tricky as only Maerati so far will be using it, and I suspect its development is being made transparent to Chrysler's engineers. it would only make sense to create commonalities between this and the E-Evo, to share as many components as possible, but considering the target audience for Maserati they need to make sure that its performance is top notch. From this one they will also prduce the successor to the coupe and the future 8C. I've been wondering if the first incarnation could even come in the shape of the SRT Viper since according to Gilles(IIRC) Maserati engineers were called in to help out, though allegedly only with suspension tuning.

Hmmm, I thought the Delta was a D segment?
I guess my confusion stems from the fact that Dart sedan may well have the Giulietta hatch or liftback, even though it has a sedan profile.
After all, the Dart IS the Giulietta, with Dodge sheetmetal and interior, so if the Giulietta is to come here, it would not be imported but simply be built alongside the Dart with it's new 2012 Giulietta sheetmetal modified to fit the CUSW platform.

[DaveAdmin]

"After all, the Dart IS the Giulietta"

I guess it must have them Fiat engines in it, eh? Wonder how they plan to make it so cheaply here.

Wonder why Chrysler hired all them engineers? That dang fool Sergio doesn't know there are a bunch of people sittin' around all day...

[MoparNorm]

DaveAdmin, on December 26, 2011 at 07:26 pm, said:

"After all, the Dart IS the Giulietta"

I guess it must have them Fiat engines in it, eh? Wonder how they plan to make it so cheaply here.

Wonder why Chrysler hired all them engineers? That dang fool Sergio doesn't know there are a bunch of people sittin' around all day...

Well, you can make it as difficult or as simple as you want in spoof, but  we KNOW it is more involved than that. However Chrysler's own media intro of the Dart touts the Alfa roots. One could also say the new Giulietta is the Dart.
The two are now as inseparable as the Nitro/Liberty once were.
And for those who don't know you are being facetious, those engineers were needed to modify the Alfa architecture to the CUSW platform, develop the Dart styling and sheetmetal, and come up with the new interior.

Touareg or Cayenne, Dart or Giulietta, it's the shared platform that goes beyond badge engineering.

Edited by MoparNorm, December 26, 2011 at 07:42 pm.

[RVC]

MoparNorm, on December 26, 2011 at 06:15 pm, said:

Hmmm, I thought the Delta was a D segment?
I guess my confusion stems from the fact that Dart sedan may well have the Giulietta hatch or liftback, even though it has a sedan profile.
After all, the Dart IS the Giulietta, with Dodge sheetmetal and interior, so if the Giulietta is to come here, it would not be imported but simply be built alongside the Dart with it's new 2012 Giulietta sheetmetal modified to fit the CUSW platform.

The Delta is a....large C segment (it competes directly with the VW Golf, Ford Focus, etc).

Well, of course they wouldn't import the giulietta but build it alongside the Dart(assuming they are, which I doubt at this point), but remember that the platform specifies certain constraints but doesn't necessarily mean that both cars are engineered 100% alike. Both cars will share important parameters that define torsional and longitudinal stiffness, NVH, the structural points where suspension can be attached, engine mounts location, the definition of floorplan materials to be used, and so on. That is what the platform defines; but then you have to go in there and adapt its phisical components to comply with the extra width required to fit in there the 2.4L engine, re-check weight distribution, center of inertia, center of mass, stiffness, lateral acceleration and sudden changes of load distribution...even before you add new suspensions! Plus, calculations and adaptations surely had to be made to comply with US safety regulations.

Once you have that data, it's "just" a matter of getting your suppliers in line, and load the new software for the robots at the plant; but they can be built on the same line right alongside the smaller COMPACTor the larger CUSW+. Look at Pomigliano and imagine a similar setup going into the new FIAT plant being built in Brasil, China, and hopefully Russia; there's where you get a glimpse of what future plants will be like and why only 5 platforms will be sufficient for a very substantial lineup across all CDJ+FAL. It also falls right in line with Chryslers Flex manufacturing philosophy.

So as you see I wasn't trying to say that the Dart is just a a giulietta with different clothes, but if you look at the total time-lapse form the merger to when the CUSW was announced, you will realize that it certainly wasn't even close to a comprehensive re-engineering work. Plus consider that at lot of components (steering, transmission, differential, seat frames, wiring harnesses, etc) will be virtually identical.

However, I suspect that all the new engineers that have been hired are more involved with the new LX+RT= E-Evo and especially with the next generation common platforms, engines and transmissions, hybrid setups, EEVs, etc than with the CUSW/CUSW+...

Plus remember, we will shortly see the Dart (us common mortals that unlike Norm do not have acces to privileged information ), but I imagine that a lot of work is also being carried out for the future Jeeps, Chryslers, etc. the Dart is only the tip of the iceberg. I'm sure you need a lot of manpower for all that stuff.

Edited by RVC, December 27, 2011 at 08:01 am.

[MoparNorm]

Absolutely and keep in mind, as you noted, the CUSW is supposed to be a stop gap measure until the next generation Dodges can developed their own identity. Both cars are far from being engineered alike, after all they share only the platform and some chassis architecture and some powertrains, we don't yet know how much else.
However it is not far fetched to see Giulietta, or ANY other C based (CUSW here)  Alfa, Fiat or Lancia moving down that line, as they have mentioned up to 7 models sharing that platform.

[RVC]

Yep, if everything pans out that single platform will probably be the most used one, and I can think of plenty more than 7 models that will be based off that.. Think about this:
AR
- Giulietta,
- Giulia,
- cXover
FIAT
- Bravo II,
- Dart in FIAT guise
LANCIA/CHRYSLER
- 200
- Delta II
- Compact SUV
Dodge
- Dart
- crossover/PMV (though I'm not sure I this would be the platform to base it on)
JEEP
- Compass II
- Liberty II

PS: I wouldn't  go so far as to claim that the Dart doesn't have a real Dodge identity, simply for the fact that it shares components with another car. If we follow that logic the last avenger was a Mitsu in disguise, the Charger is a 300, ect, ect.
It's up to the guys in engineering and style to make it a Dodge, and I have faith that they have done just that
Besides, the future C-D platform will have to be suitable for a similar amount of models for both FIAT and Chrysler, so the situation will remain exactly identical.

[RVC]

Adding to the confusion, Alfa announced on 12/20/2011 that they will offer a wagon variant of the Giulietta in 2013. Call me silly, but everything points to the Dart floorplan (and thus to the CUSW) for the 2013 refreshed Giulietta. If that is the case it will could be sold in the US as well after all, but by most accounts it will NOT be offed in the US.

That leads me to think that the lines that assemble the giulietta will shift to the CUSW-based architecture for the Giulietta in 2013. That would also mean that the future Delta and Bravo crossover will be based off that, thus streamlining all tooling across all plants.

Edited by RVC, December 30, 2011 at 08:26 am.

[MoparNorm]

RVC, on December 30, 2011 at 08:19 am, said:

That leads me to think that the lines that assemble the giulietta will shift to the CUSW-based architecture for the Giulietta in 2013. That would also mean that the future Delta and Bravo crossover will be based off that, thus streamlining all tooling across all plants.

That makes economic sense and is what I envisioned from early on.
This cuts overhead at both companies, frees up engineering that is now redundant, to perform other tasks and allows management flexibility in decision making.

[RVC]

Yes sir, you are 100% correct