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91 Daytona Ignition Timing non-turbo 2.5?


20 replies to this topic

#1 twinmill28

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Posted January 7, 2013 at 04:07 pm

It's been about 6 months since I logged on here and was given some good direction about replacing the lifters on my wifes 91 non-turbo Daytona.

I've learned alot in the past 6 months of dragging my feet trying to put the car back on the road--to sum it up, I could have been driving it again within a day or two of the lifter spitting out with what I know now.  Had I just removed the valve cover, put in 8 new lifters and buttoned it up I'd have been on the road quickly. 

 

Instead, I decided to replace the timing and accessory belts (original 72,xxx mile car) in addition to the water pump since I was told I might as well since I had it apart.  My motivation (lack of metric tools didn't help either) was already low for this project and I dragged it out--which led to the fuel going to trash, man what crappy additives fuel has these days.

 

In short, the engine is completely back together but timing is off and I need to know where it should be?  Additionally, the short amount of time it was running the other night it won't hold an idle (due to bad gas I'm sure), so I added Sea Foam and multiple gallons of fresh Premium fuel to make it feel better.  Pretty sure the throttle body needs to be flushed out to get it to idle.
I did notice it has a miss (which is similar to but not as bad as the miss it had when it puked the rocker), hoping that's just a fouled plug from early attempts to get it running again--I put in new plugs but had to drive it home (spark plug wire discoed) with the rocker off.  I ran out of time and energy the other night after gassing it up and dumping fuel everywhere (stupid new style spouts for a whole new discussion) so I had to quit and haven't been able to get back to it.

 

I've got a fear on the back of my mind that I may now have a bad/bent valve if checking plugs/wires doesn't lead anywhere. 
More to follow--for now I just need to know where the timing should be set?

 



#2 twinmill28

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Posted January 7, 2013 at 04:17 pm

Also need to know how many quarts of oil to add on a filter change?  I'm thinking it was 4 and something odd quarts but can't remember.



#3 Bob Lincoln

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Posted January 7, 2013 at 04:55 pm

Is it the valve timing or the ignition timing that you believe to be off (or both)?  And have you checked cylinder compression?  Should be about 130 psi all around, no more than 10% difference between cylinders.

 

Standard filter oil change takes 4.5 quarts.  Change with oversize filter (PH-8A or equivalent) takes 5 quarts.



#4 twinmill28

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Posted January 8, 2013 at 09:45 am

Ok, put a little bit of time on it last night---success! 

 

The ignition timing was way off, I'm impressed it even started/ran with how far out it was.  I needed a timing light the other night and was just taking a stab in the dark on my initial attempt, thinking I hadn't changed anything when I replaced the timing belt so it should be close to what it was---boy I was wrong.  So last night I brought the timing back in around 12 degrees where the dude at Auto Zone said it should be and it starts and runs as good as it did before things went south this past summer.  The timing was jumping around, so I averaged it out at 12, is there anything I need to disco (I'm used to having a vacuum line to the distributor) to get the timing mark to read steady?

 

Also, the power steering belt I put on it from Auto Zone (part #15430) was massively tight, so much so that I had to use a pry bar to get it on the pulley.  I double checked the part number online and it shows as the one listed as the Auto Zone replacement for a 2.5 non turbo.  I'm thinking to go to O'Reillys and get another belt and replace that before I smoke the bearings on the PS pump.  Any input here?  The alternator belt (P/N 382K4) was pretty tight as well, but not so much to concern me like the PS.  Initially I figured the belts would loosen up some with driving, but again, don't want to kill the PS.
 

Thanks for all your valuable input here on the All Par forums, I've just got to finish flushing the radiator and add some coolant and it should be good to go


Edited by twinmill28, January 8, 2013 at 09:47 am.


#5 Bob Lincoln

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Posted January 8, 2013 at 10:18 am

In order to set the ignition timing correctly to 12 degrees BTDC, you must first warm up the car and unplug the Coolant Temperature Sensor. It's located on the side of the thermostat housing, 2-wire latched plug. When you unplug it, the Check Engine light will come on and a code 22 will be stored, and the cooling fan will come on continuously. This is normal. Then loosen the hold-down bolt on the distributor, use a timing light and rotate the distributor body to the correct timing setting. Tighten the hold-down bolt and recheck timing. Then reconnect the CTS.

The reason the timing jumps all around if you don't unplug the CTS is because it is making continuous and instantaneous timing adjustments due to very minute temperature changes. Once unplugged, the timing should be very steady. The zero mark (TDC) is the leftmost mark, when standing by the left fenderwell. Each mark is 2 degrees, so you want to line up the 7th mark with the flywheel notch.

15430 is the correct PS belt. In order to install the belt, you must loosen two fasteners - the bolt that must be reached through the PS pulley on the front face of the pump, and also a bolt or nut on the backside of the pump, which, due to tight spacing around the firewall, is best reached from below the car (as awkward as that sounds). If you didn't loosen the rear fastener, that's why you had trouble getting the belt on. When the bolts are both loosened, the pump should rotate so that its neck almost touches the valve cover.

Edited by Bob Lincoln, January 8, 2013 at 10:21 am.


#6 twinmill28

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Posted January 8, 2013 at 10:35 am

Excellent information to help finish this job up--thank you, especially for the info about the coolant sensor. 

 

As I was messing with the car last night, one of the nagging things in the back of my mind was that prior to parking it this past summer I'd noticed the temp. gauge was high sitting at a traffic light, but then went back to normal as soon a I started driving.  I didn't get a chance to check on this as that was one of the last times driving the car.  Then last night I thought the gauge was high again but just as I glanced at it I had just started driving and the temp went back down.  As I was under the hood checking timing I didn't see the fan come on--so disco'ing the coolant sensor and triggering the fan on is just what I need to see if it is operating as advertised.  While I had the car down for maintenance I replaced all of the coolant system pieces, t-stat, 3 heater hoses (ok, 2 and that other one), two rad. hoses, so the rest of the cooling system should be up tight.

 

I thought I'd gotten all the PS bolts loose, and was really making every effort to avoid going under the car, but I'll give it a college try and see if I can loosen that belt up.

 

So I'll get the timing set, check fan operation and hopefully fix the PS belt--check, check and check!

 

Thanks again!


Edited by twinmill28, January 8, 2013 at 10:47 am.


#7 Bob Lincoln

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Posted January 8, 2013 at 10:55 am

http://www.justanswe...se-provide.html

 

The diagram at the bottom is missing the "H" nut and bolt, but they are the pivot, you must reach the backside of the pump.  You have the "S" type pump.



#8 twinmill28

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Posted January 9, 2013 at 10:06 pm

Ok, next dilemma---this was an issue I noted just before the Daytona stopped running; I noticed the temp. gauge go to 3/4 sitting in traffic, then as I drove away it cooled down.  Fast forward to now (6 months later)-- it's doing the same thing, gauge almost pegged tonight, bounced a little, then went down to 3/4.  I figured for a couple bucks I'd replace the coolant sensor as a start.  When I pulled the sensor it was bone dry in the t-stat housing, the sensor was also dry.
Now I'm confused, I've replaced everything on the entire cooling system, including putting the t-stat back in the same direction it came out.  The t-stat is really the only thing I could think may be backwards, but I really doubt it.  What direction should the pointy part of t-stat face?

I also had the car running to adjust timing with coolant sensor discoed, e-fan running as advertised.


What gives?


What's New--rad hoses top/bottom, heater hoses, crossover hose, t-stat, rad cap, coolant sensor, water pump


Edited by twinmill28, January 9, 2013 at 10:07 pm.


#9 Bob Lincoln

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Posted January 9, 2013 at 10:17 pm

You have air trapped in the cooling system. That's why the gauge spikes. Don't buy new parts, they aren't needed. Any time that you service the system, you need to bleed air out. The best way to do this is to park the car uphill, and with engine cold, remove the radiator cap, start car and run the heater on high. Watch the level in the radiator and top off as needed. This will "burp" air bubbles out of the system.

The thermostat is installed so that the side with the spring faces the engine.

#10 twinmill28

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Posted January 9, 2013 at 10:40 pm

Yeah, I thought it might be trapped air, but man it was bone dry.  I tried opening the plug on top and side of the stat housing but those suckers have become one with the aluminum housing.  I'll give the hill parking (or sitting on a jack) and running with heater on.

 

Now my next step after debugging the timing and getting it out of the garage is to flush the cooling system-- I'm running straight water right now.  My buddy recommended I get the Prestone t-fitting to hook a hose up and use the cooling system flush that also means the system needs to be filled and flushed out twice before draining the water and adding coolant.   So should I do the flush as well as burping with heater on, drain and fill twice then add coolant and burp again?

Thanks for all the info leading me in the right direction---the last time I worked on a car was my Chevy 350 about 15 years ago, and it seemed a little easier to make it happy, though the Daytona is not rocket science by any means, just knowing the tricks.


Edited by twinmill28, January 9, 2013 at 10:42 pm.


#11 Bob Lincoln

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Posted January 10, 2013 at 09:04 am

Unless the coolant originally had a LOT of crud in it, I would not flush it.  I just drain and refill, and stick to the maintenance interval of the coolant, which is 5 years/50K miles.  Flushing may stress an old heater core or radiator, since it normally sees 16 psi, and most public water pressure is 45-60 psi.

 

That plug on top of the head by the thermostat is always overtightened at the factory.  I tried to remove one on a brand new car, it would not budge.  That's why I burp it by parking uphill.

 

Never run on straight water.  It will get too hot, overheat more easily, and the water pump and radiator need the lubricant and anti-corrosive chemicals that are in anti-freeze.  You can buy a pre-mix of 50/50, which is the ideal mix and will protect from freezing down to -30F.



#12 twinmill28

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Posted January 11, 2013 at 06:04 pm

Ok, got the air out of the system--tried something new and drilled an 1//8" hole in the movable disc in the thermostat.  My buddy recommended it to avoid the trapped air.  I also pulled the coolant sensor and let the water come up that way before putting it all back together.  Temps are wayyyyy down and looking good so far. 

Now I've run it out and put some miles on it and it's coming up with a rough idle sitting at a stop light.  Leaves the light well, runs good otherwise, but idles like it's got a massive cam in it.  Any ideas?



#13 Bob Lincoln

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Posted January 11, 2013 at 10:25 pm

Could be that the coolant spilled onto either the distributor wires or got in the CTS plug.  Check for fault codes.  There would be a code 22 from the timing check, but that should be all.



#14 twinmill28

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Posted January 15, 2013 at 09:37 pm

No, still got a rough idle after it warms up--rattles my teeth out sitting at a stop light.  I got a feeling something with the throttle body, or TPS needs cleaning.  Otherwise runs like a raped ape on the road.  I do have to replace the PCV elbow to the valve cover, it's cracked wide open, but I'm really doubting thats the issue.

 

Next things to sort out are the clunk up front when I shift it into drive--thinking the rear motor mount is shot, need to dig into it more.  I've also got to replace the exhaust, there's a hole just behind the muffler and it sounds like crap.



#15 Bob Lincoln

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Posted January 15, 2013 at 09:45 pm

No, still got a rough idle after it warms up--rattles my teeth out sitting at a stop light.  I got a feeling something with the throttle body, or TPS needs cleaning.  Otherwise runs like a raped ape on the road.  I do have to replace the PCV elbow to the valve cover, it's cracked wide open, but I'm really doubting thats the issue.

 

Next things to sort out are the clunk up front when I shift it into drive--thinking the rear motor mount is shot, need to dig into it more.  I've also got to replace the exhaust, there's a hole just behind the muffler and it sounds like crap.

I guarantee that having a cracked PCV elbow is causing a rough idle.  Instead of buying the crappy $2 one at Autozone that's hard as plastic, and cracks open in a few months, get one at NAPA or the dealer.  They are softer and will last longer.  And check carefully over ALL of the rigid and rubber vacuum lines for cracks.  The slightest crack can cause a rough idle.

The rear motor mount is seldom bad, but the front one tears out a lot, and the passenger one collapses.  To check the motor mounts, set the parking brake firmly, hold the foot brake and with the car in Drive, give the engine a quick rev and release it, while looking under the edge of the open hood.  If you see the engine rock more than an inch, one or more mounts is loose or shot.

A hole *behind* the muffler will barely be noticeable in sound or performance.  There may be another hole elsewhere.  If you have the air injection pipe from your air cleaner housing to the catalytic converter, make sure the pipe hasn't rusted and broken away from the converter.  That often happens, and then you have a bad exhaust leak.  They can sometimes be tack welded on; otherwise, weld the hole shut or get a new catcon and leave the pipe fitting capped off.  They give virtually the same emissions readings without that pipe.


Edited by Bob Lincoln, January 15, 2013 at 09:46 pm.


#16 twinmill28

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Posted April 5, 2013 at 11:57 am

Ok, I just checked on this post and it's been a long time since I've messed with the car or even driven it. 

 

Hate to admit this, but think I made a critical mistake installing the timing belt, which is why I'm thinking the engine has a rough idle?  Can anybody point me in the right direction on timing belt?  Are there marks to line up cam/crank?  When I put in the new belt, I just slid off the old belt and slid on the new without moving the engine, but as I think about it, I'm probably off some given loose old belt vs. tight new belt?

 

Once I got the engine all put back together and driveable, I quit driving it due to severe lack of interest, rough idle and needing a new battery.  Time to pick this back up and get it running so I can drive it again.



#17 Bob Lincoln

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Posted April 5, 2013 at 01:06 pm

Yup, you probably have the valve timing off.  The crank and the intermediate shaft spin very easily without the belt in place.  Check out this article for the procedure, and let us know how you make out:

 

http://www.allpar.co...ng-belt-22.html

 

Make sure you tension the belt properly.  You don't need that special tool, just pull the tension with a wrench and lock the nut down.  Then see if the belt will just twist 90 degrees on the longest run, without excessive effort.  If more than 90 degree twist, it's too loose and vice versa.

 

I did a timing belt last year for the first time, and it's a lot easier than I thought.



#18 twinmill28

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Posted April 5, 2013 at 01:33 pm

Cool, thanks for the info on the belt tension---I guessed about how tight I thought it should be, was concerned it may be a little tight. 
Yeah, replacing the belt seemed pretty easy---once I got my hands on a decent tool kit with metric sockets.  I'd been cobbling what little metrics tools I had, trying to make it work and it sucked.

I'll check over the valve timing write-up and go from there.  As always, thanks for the info....



#19 ImperialCrown

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Posted April 5, 2013 at 04:07 pm

 If the belt is too tight, it will make a whirring noise that follows engine speed. A wrench with light downward pressure on it or just hanging counterclockwise on the tensioner should be enough, then tighten the locknut. Looks like: Engine_Timing_Belt_Tension_Tool.jpg and 

22MiscManual2_zps07e45612.jpg

 Reset your ignition timing. The single wire (violet) dash gauge temperature sender is separate from the coolant temperature sensor used by the PCM. The 2-wire PCM CTS is the one to disconnect in order to set your timing. The 'ck eng' light will come on, but you can erase it after setting the timing.

The swinging gauge pointer would have nothing to do with the engine computer CTS and is another issue.


Edited by ImperialCrown, April 5, 2013 at 04:09 pm.


#20 twinmill28

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Posted April 10, 2013 at 03:32 pm

I took it apart this past weekend and realized I must have gotten really luck with the intermediate shaft lining up the first time I put the car back together as I'd been able to start and run it.
Great instructions for the timing belt replacement, though it took some looking to find the mark on the intermediate sprocket and some more thinking to realize the hole in the crank sprocket was supposed to be the oval one.

It's all back together now and I had it out for a long drive just to run it out and flex it's tires since it's been in the garage so long.  I'm still getting a rough idle when cold, seems to idle pretty good most times at stop lights.  I'm thinking some trash in the throttle body because of how long it sat?  It ran like a top before the lifter seized, which is amazing considering I'm pretty sure it was still running on the original cap and rotor and those looked really bad.

Thanks for all the help with this, feels good to have the car running smooth again.  I still have to replace the battery as I'm pretty sure its got a bad cell.




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