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AN: Cherokee tally: 51% 4x4


50 replies to this topic

#1 Allpar News System

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Posted October 1, 2013 at 03:06 pm

With around 18,450 KL Cherokees built so far — and nary a single one in the hands of a dealership or car-buyer — there is still no firmware fix, but there is some information on the production run. Allpar has been told by unofficial sources that firmware fixes are being developed for both front-drive and 4x4 Cherokees, explaining why, with around 9,000 4x2s produced so far, none are yet in customers’ hands — unless the company simply does not want the image issue of a front-drive-only Jeep to linger. That said, more 4x4s have actually been made, with 9,450 Cherokees having the various four wheel drive systems. Posted Image
  Source oh2o wrote that there are now around 2,000 Trailhawks in the wild; the top off-road model, it includes standard thick steel plates which cover key systems, so that scraping or dropping onto rocks usually does little or no damage.  Trailhawk..

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#2 UN4GTBL

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Posted October 1, 2013 at 03:25 pm

Is there a reason that the picture is a Grand Cherokee?  ;)


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#3 Mike V.

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Posted October 1, 2013 at 04:06 pm

Regardless of the picture... That's very very very interesting information.

#4 Erik Latranyi

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Posted October 1, 2013 at 04:29 pm

There are no Trailhawks "in the wild"  ...they are still penned-up waiting to be released.



#5 MoparNorm

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Posted October 1, 2013 at 05:00 pm

Correction: AWD!!!
Only the 2,000 Trailhawks with low range, LOCK, have 4WD.
And that is questionable...

Edited by MoparNorm, October 1, 2013 at 05:00 pm.


#6 GasAxe

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Posted October 1, 2013 at 05:06 pm

It's semantics but saying 51% of the Cherokees built are "4x4's" is in my view inflating the Jeepyness of the Cherokee. I would say 11% of the built Cherokee's are Trail Rated and leave it at that. An AWD Town & Country isn't a Jeep but some of those 4x4 Cherokees have the same type of drivetrain. Or is the drivetrain meaningless when defining the Jeep brand (not to a vehicle called a Jeep ie. 4x2 mail carrier Wranglers).

Ack! You beat me to it Norm! :)

Edited by GasAxe, October 1, 2013 at 05:07 pm.

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#7 JKU12

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Posted October 1, 2013 at 07:10 pm

Is the main difference in considering 4x4 vs AWD the inclusion or lack of a low range?



#8 MoparNorm

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Posted October 1, 2013 at 07:57 pm

Is the main difference in considering 4x4 vs AWD the inclusion or lack of a low range?

No, a 4x4 nomenclature is the ability of a vehicle to split it's drive system 50/50 front to rear and equally to all four wheels. The low range is just a bonus, when in 4 WD.

These AWD traction control systems on the KL are FWD biased, and only send power to the rear wheels when the front wheels begin to slip.
There is nothing wrong with this type of system, as it sends power to where it's needed. It's very common on "Full Time" systems which allow operation on dry, hard surfaces. These automatic systems are known as AWD systems.
The drawback of most automatic systems is their inability to lock into a 50/50 split, front to rear and the absence of a low range.

Many capable Jeeps in the past, have had an "automatic" system, starting with the mid '70's Quaratrac systems, or the NV242, transfer case, however these, including the 242 were also capable of low range and full 4 wheel drive modes.
The only KL with that ability is the Quadradrive II system with low range and lock modes...and I don't believe it's a true 50/50 split.

Most AWD systems, because of their complexity and multiple parts are not considered heavy duty enough, for serious 4WD usage and because of that, the Wranglers have only been equipped with the Part Time, 231 transfer case., although several folks have lobbied for the return of a case as strong as the NV242, for use in the Wrangler
The headline should read, "51% AWD" if it is to be considered reliable and accurate. Regardless of what Jeep marketing calls it.

Edited by MoparNorm, October 1, 2013 at 08:00 pm.


#9 JKU12

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Posted October 1, 2013 at 08:34 pm

What's the difference between my Liberty 4x4 auto and these KLs? Is it just the initial bias? Liberty is 42/58 and KL is 100/0? My Liberty can go 100% to any 1 tire. Would you consider it AWD as well?

#10 JKU12

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Posted October 1, 2013 at 08:45 pm

One other question. On the KL videos they say for example, that "snow" mode goes for 60/40 split. Are you saying that with snow mode on, it's still really 100/0 split, unless it detects traction issues, and then would switch into 60/40 mode? As opposed to starting with that ratio?

#11 dmcdonald

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Posted October 1, 2013 at 08:47 pm

No, a 4x4 nomenclature is the ability of a vehicle to split it's drive system 50/50 front to rear and equally to all four wheels. The low range is just a bonus, when in 4 WD.

These AWD traction control systems on the KL are FWD biased, and only send power to the rear wheels when the front wheels begin to slip.
There is nothing wrong with this type of system, as it sends power to where it's needed. It's very common on "Full Time" systems which allow operation on dry, hard surfaces. These automatic systems are known as AWD systems.
The drawback of most automatic systems is their inability to lock into a 50/50 split, front to rear and the absence of a low range.

Many capable Jeeps in the past, have had an "automatic" system, starting with the mid '70's Quaratrac systems, or the NV242, transfer case, however these, including the 242 were also capable of low range and full 4 wheel drive modes.
The only KL with that ability is the Quadradrive II system with low range and lock modes...and I don't believe it's a true 50/50 split.

Most AWD systems, because of their complexity and multiple parts are not considered heavy duty enough, for serious 4WD usage and because of that, the Wranglers have only been equipped with the Part Time, 231 transfer case., although several folks have lobbied for the return of a case as strong as the NV242, for use in the Wrangler
The headline should read, "51% AWD" if it is to be considered reliable and accurate. Regardless of what Jeep marketing calls it.

 

On the KL I think you mean Active Drive Lock.  Quadradrive II is the system used on the Grand Cherokee.  In the Active Drive Lock system used on the KL the "Lock" in the nomenclature refers to the rear locker and not the PTU system.  Otherwise, it is the same as Active Drive II.

The Active Drive II is available on the Latitude and Limited models as an upgrade to the Active Drive I. Active Drive II, like the Active Drive Lock, does "lock" (though not necessarily 50/50) the front and rear drive when in low range.  

 

That would mean that any KL with Active Drive II and Active Drive Lock would meet the "questionable"(your word) definition of 4WD that you stated above.  Therefore, it is not simply a breakdown of Trailhawk numbers for 4WD, though they are the only model Trail Rated  ;)

 

http://media.chrysle...id=14036&mid=97


Edited by dmcdonald, October 1, 2013 at 09:08 pm.


#12 dmcdonald

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Posted October 1, 2013 at 09:03 pm

No, a 4x4 nomenclature is the ability of a vehicle to split it's drive system 50/50 front to rear and equally to all four wheels. The low range is just a bonus, when in 4 WD.

These AWD traction control systems on the KL are FWD biased, and only send power to the rear wheels when the front wheels begin to slip.
There is nothing wrong with this type of system, as it sends power to where it's needed. It's very common on "Full Time" systems which allow operation on dry, hard surfaces. These automatic systems are known as AWD systems.
The drawback of most automatic systems is their inability to lock into a 50/50 split, front to rear and the absence of a low range.

 

FWIW, the AWD Patriot and Compass with even the Freedom Drive I system can be locked to a 50/50 - front/rear drive configuration with the 4WD Lock switch.  http://www.jeep.com/.../freedom_drive/



#13 JKU12

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Posted October 1, 2013 at 09:30 pm

On the KL I think you mean Active Drive Lock.  Quadradrive II is the system used on the Grand Cherokee.  In the Active Drive Lock system used on the KL the "Lock" in the nomenclature refers to the rear locker and not the PTU system.  Otherwise, it is the same as Active Drive II.

The Active Drive II is available on the Latitude and Limited models as an upgrade to the Active Drive I. Active Drive II, like the Active Drive Lock, does "lock" (though not necessarily 50/50) the front and rear drive when in low range.  

 

That would mean that any KL with Active Drive II and Active Drive Lock would meet the "questionable"(your word) definition of 4WD that you stated above.  Therefore, it is not simply a breakdown of Trailhawk numbers for 4WD, though they are the only model Trail Rated  ;)

 

http://media.chrysle...id=14036&mid=97

 

The materials mention specifically "full-time 4WD" for snow and sand/mud settings as well as front/rear split in low range (for Active Drive II)... so it may appear to meet the "definition of 4wd"?  Unless we're going with the dedicated 50/50 definition.  Which would mean my Liberty technically isn't a 4x4.

Even Active Drive I might meet the definition, because it has a snow and sand/mud setting, and thus may have full-time 4WD as well when in those settings?  It just doesn't have a low gear, but that is not technically needed for 4x4 definition.  I guess by the old school definition, 51% don't meet 4x4, but the lines seem to be blurring these days?

 

I think traditionally, as Norm stated, a 4x4 system could be thought of as having a dedicated transfer case with actual torque split between front and rear (50/50), whereas the traditional AWD system would say be front-wheel drive and then have the ability to automatically provide input to all 4 tires when necessary.

 

However, I think many 4x4 systems are becoming more AWD like and AWD systems are becoming more 4x4 like, as technology sort of blurs the original definitions.  I think that Subarus AWD system actually does keep it at 50/50 in some applications, for example.


Edited by JKU12, October 1, 2013 at 09:52 pm.


#14 dmcdonald

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Posted October 1, 2013 at 10:02 pm

The definition is definitely blurring in some cases, especially with the integration of advanced electronics.

Norm mentioned two systems which perhaps were the beginning of this overlap. The 242 transfer case was IMHO brilliant in its execution. It's use in the JKU, If it were to be implemented, would make it a much stronger potential choice for my usage.
The Quadratrac system of the 1970's was also ahead of its time, though not all examples had a low range. You were, however, able to "lock " the system through a vacuum switch in the glove compartment.

#15 MoparNorm

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Posted October 1, 2013 at 10:08 pm

What's the difference between my Liberty 4x4 auto and these KLs? Is it just the initial bias? Liberty is 42/58 and KL is 100/0? My Liberty can go 100% to any 1 tire. Would you consider it AWD as well?

Liberty KJ used the NV242, it's dual mode, Part Time and Full,Time, 4WD.
Liberty KK, used a similar transfer case and works the same, with both a Full Time and Part Time 4WD.

#16 dmcdonald

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Posted October 1, 2013 at 10:17 pm

Liberty KJ used the NV242, it's dual mode, Part Time and Full,Time, 4WD.
Liberty KK, used a similar transfer case and works the same, with both a Full Time and Part Time 4WD.


Just to add to Norm's description, you could even say three mode as the 242 could be run in 2WD as well. My only complaint was that this case was never offered in any Jeep model with a manual gearbox. I was always forced to choose between the two.
Norm, do you know any technical reason why this might have been so? Drive shaft length? Other? Or was it just model packaging ?

#17 MoparNorm

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Posted October 1, 2013 at 10:31 pm

Even Active Drive I might meet the definition, because it has a snow and sand/mud setting, and thus may have full-time 4WD as well when in those settings?  .


I may be mistaken, but those settings are still based upon wheel spin and sending traction to the wheel that is not spinning and as such, it's still an AWD system, not 4WD.

#18 MoparNorm

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Posted October 1, 2013 at 10:46 pm

Norm, do you know any technical reason why this might have been so? Drive shaft length? Other? Or was it just model packaging ?

I'd guess that it was just packaging. The 242 housing was cast to mate with the automatics, not sure if it ever was mated to a manual of any make, or model.
It was used in XJ Cherokee, Grand Cherokee, Liberty and H1, to name a few.

Edited by MoparNorm, October 1, 2013 at 10:59 pm.


#19 marlon_jbt

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Posted October 2, 2013 at 01:25 am

Ahem, Norm... I don't have a selection for 4WD Part Time. Just Full Time.

I have Selec-Trac II, which is called 4WD AUTO on the transfer case selector.

2WD
4WD AUTO
N
4WD LOW

Edited by marlon_jbt, October 2, 2013 at 01:28 am.


#20 link3721

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Posted October 2, 2013 at 07:46 am

Ahem, Norm... I don't have a selection for 4WD Part Time. Just Full Time.

I have Selec-Trac II, which is called 4WD AUTO on the transfer case selector.

2WD
4WD AUTO
N
4WD LOW


I think the 4WD LOW would be the part time option to accompany the AUTO full time option. I could be wrong in my terminology though.


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