.
cars

Jump to content


Hello, Allpar Forums member or visitor! If you were an active member (more than two posts) or subscriber, you would not see this ad!

Register for a free account or Sign in (see top right of page for Facebook/Open ID login icons).


Photo
* * * * * 1 votes

93 Voyager Abs Conversion


This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.
15 replies to this topic

#1 timstover

timstover
  • Active Member
  • 8 posts

Posted September 20, 2005 at 04:03 pm

I have a 93 grand voyager with bendix abs. Brakes are hard and very poor. I took it to the dealer, they said pump was bad (recall covered), accumulator bad (not covered) and presure switch bad (not covered). Estimate over $700. I have access to earlier model minivan booster and master cylinder. I am not concerned about having abs. Will the dics calipers and rear wheel cylinders yield good braking if I make this conversion? Thanks, Tim Stover

#2 theGUYman

theGUYman
  • Inactive
  • 496 posts

Posted September 20, 2005 at 07:05 pm

TIMSTOVER: you might want to read this post, maybe you should investigate the filter.

#3 t2erns

t2erns
  • Active Member
  • 1,416 posts

Posted September 20, 2005 at 11:31 pm

I have a 93 grand voyager with bendix abs. Brakes are hard and very poor. I took it to the dealer, they said pump was bad (recall covered), accumulator bad (not covered) and presure switch bad (not covered). Estimate over $700. I have access to earlier model minivan booster and master cylinder. I am not concerned about having abs. Will the dics calipers and rear wheel cylinders yield good braking if I make this conversion? Thanks, Tim Stover


sure you'll have also a good braking power but abs is an added safety. you will need a proportioning valve and some modefications on the brake pedal if you want to convert it.

#4 theGUYman

theGUYman
  • Inactive
  • 496 posts

Posted September 22, 2005 at 06:18 pm

Oh crap: mine just went on the fritz. I was in traffic and needed to brake hard. Yep the van came to a stop, but when it did the abs and brake lamps stay on, and I can here the little pump pumping its brains out, non-stop.

I am not interested in having it fixed at the dealership (free or not), just to go through this again (and again and again as some as experienced).

So I am leaning toward a conversion, but sure would like more info from anyone out there that may have done this. I have no shortage of parts at my local self serve boneyard. A conversion that is, as long as it only involves replacing the master cylinder and related components. I have read elsewhere that the brake calipers and cylinders need to be changed. I sure hope not.

#5 faulty585

faulty585
  • Inactive
  • 245 posts

Posted September 22, 2005 at 06:49 pm

Oh crap: mine just went on the fritz. I was in traffic and needed to brake hard. Yep the van came to a stop, but when it did the abs and brake lamps stay on, and I can here the little pump pumping its brains out, non-stop.

I am not interested in having it fixed at the dealership (free or not), just to go through this again (and again and again as some as experienced).

So I am leaning toward a conversion, but sure would like more info from anyone out there that may have done this. I have no shortage of parts at my local self serve boneyard. A conversion that is, as long as it only involves replacing the master cylinder and related components. I have read elsewhere that the brake calipers and cylinders need to be changed. I sure hope not.

Begin at the beginning !
i believe you will find the parts are different all around between abs and non abs but its your option if you want to convert it. if i remmber right when my abs motor went bad my brake light didnt come on?and if its free why wouldnt you want the added safety of the abs system?

I have a 93 grand voyager with bendix abs. Brakes are hard and very poor. I took it to the dealer, they said pump was bad (recall covered), accumulator bad (not covered) and presure switch bad (not covered). Estimate over $700. I have access to earlier model minivan booster and master cylinder. I am not concerned about having abs. Will the dics calipers and rear wheel cylinders yield good braking if I make this conversion? Thanks, Tim Stover

Begin at the beginning!
i would question how they can tell accumulator is bad when pump wont function?was my understanding when i took abs course that the accumulator stored energy or pressure and released it as it was called for i didnt realize they was a test to check it without pump working?and as far as pressure switch it would be a nominal fee for the switch if they didnt warraty it?

#6 theGUYman

theGUYman
  • Inactive
  • 496 posts

Posted September 22, 2005 at 08:39 pm

Well I will take it to the local dealership first, for an "estimate", and will report back.

#7 theGUYman

theGUYman
  • Inactive
  • 496 posts

Posted September 23, 2005 at 12:21 pm

OK. Went to the dealership, with the hope that this would be a low cost scenario. Bad idea. Here is how it sorta went, at a 5 star dealer:

Dealer: "oh that is a BIG job. A whole day. Can't do that today. You will have to leave it or schedule it in. To get an estimate, that's $95.00 (Canadian) an hour. Estimate for the estimate will probably cost you about $200., but not sure."

theGUYman: "Wow, won't the trouble codes give you an idea?"

Dealer: "Oh not on those. After the codes we still have to test all the components. big job".

theGUYman: "Apparently some of the components are on warranty..."

Dealer: "Only one component is. . . the last vehicle we worked on was about a $2000. job . . ."

theGUYman: "OK you talked me out of it! I heard about folks running into situations like this. Fine. Forget it. See ya. . ."

Dealer: "No wait sir, I was just trying to set some expectations . . ."

theGUYman: "No that's fine, bye!"

Dealer: "But sir..."

And away I went with a van with 50% braking power and a non-stop pump...

So, I phoned my fav "corner garage" mechanic and explained what happened. He said "oh yeah same old bulls%*t from the dealerships. Just bring it in on Monday first thing and lets take a peek" which I will do so and report back. And I am sure he will not charge me $95.00 an hour. But can he take advantage of the warranty items...

In the meantime I will try and visit a boneyard this afternoon and try to dissect a regular master cylinder and power brake giblets from a victim van and see what is involved, just in case.

I really think the conversion is the right approach, as parts for that ABS are as scarce as hen's teeth in the boneyards, which is crap for someone who does most of their own work, on a vehicle of this vintage.

Edited by theGUYman, September 23, 2005 at 12:24 pm.


#8 faulty585

faulty585
  • Inactive
  • 245 posts

Posted September 23, 2005 at 12:52 pm

guy try some of the smaller yards you will find what ya need to fix your present sytem am sure i have gotten a few used pumps and parts from smaller yards less than fractional cost !

#9 t2erns

t2erns
  • Active Member
  • 1,416 posts

Posted September 23, 2005 at 09:27 pm

if you're going to consider conversion its safer for the front wheel drive to have the proportioning valve set-up diagonally split (i.e. rt-front & rear left for the primary; left front & right-rear for the secondary). just based on my experiences in converting a number of these vans.

#10 theGUYman

theGUYman
  • Inactive
  • 496 posts

Posted September 23, 2005 at 10:29 pm

OK. Went to the boneyard. Found a 92 on a rack just ready to be stripped. In fact, someone took the tranny out so the motor was sitting low on the driver side, nicely out of the way.

Took about an hour, and so I now have (for $28.00 - cheap):

- brake booster
- master cylinder (although I might get a new one)
- brake pedal
- proportional valve assembly
- misc hardware

Took about an hour to remove. Not bad for a first time. I now have a better idea now how to take out the ABS stuff.

I cleaned up the outside of the brake booster and painted it nice and black to look shiny new. The brake pedal looks just like the one in my van, so hopefully the linkage will be fine.

A few concerns:

(1) that the brake lines on the ABS are of course much longer to accommodate the ABS assembly. I hope that I can just loop the excess brake lines nicely (with my little pipe bender) to finagle them to match up to the prop valve assembly.
(2) that the brake lines come off nicely from the ABS assembly. In the past I know that these can get rusted on, and snap off or need to be hacked off.
(3) that the metal brake line fittings are the same. According to www.alldatadiy.com, on side of the brake lines use 3/8" threads, and the other line use 7/16". I suspect that is to ensure that the wheels are on a diagonal feeds.
(4) that I can figure out if the old style safety switch can be wired in to the old brake lamp wiring.
(5) that the bleeder screws will cooperate.
(6) that my fancy home made pressure bleeder will work

I will attempt this tomorrow if the weather permits.

#11 t2erns

t2erns
  • Active Member
  • 1,416 posts

Posted September 23, 2005 at 10:39 pm

OK. Went to the boneyard. Found a 92 on a rack just ready to be stripped. In fact, someone took the tranny out so the motor was sitting low on the driver side, nicely out of the way.

Took about an hour, and so I now have (for $28.00 - cheap):

- brake booster
- master cylinder (although I might get a new one)
- brake pedal
- proportional valve assembly
- misc hardware

Took about an hour to remove. Not bad for a first time. I now have a better idea now how to take out the ABS stuff.

I cleaned up the outside of the brake booster and painted it nice and black to look shiny new. The brake pedal looks just like the one in my van, so hopefully the linkage will be fine.

A few concerns:

(1) that the brake lines on the ABS are of course much longer to accommodate the ABS assembly. I hope that I can just loop the excess brake lines nicely (with my little pipe bender) to finagle them to match up to the prop valve assembly.
(2) that the brake lines come off nicely from the ABS assembly. In the past I know that these can get rusted on, and snap off or need to be hacked off.
(3) that the metal brake line fittings are the same. According to www.alldatadiy.com, on side of the brake lines use 3/8" threads, and the other line use 7/16". I suspect that is to ensure that the wheels are on a diagonal feeds.
(4) that I can figure out if the old style safety switch can be wired in to the old brake lamp wiring.
(5) that the bleeder screws will cooperate.
(6) that my fancy home made pressure bleeder will work

I will attempt this tomorrow if the weather permits.



CAUTION: ABS is high pressure, be sure to releive the pressure before dismantling the abs, with igntion off pump brake pedal at least 40times. GOOD LUCK

#12 valiant67

valiant67

    Rich, Corinthian Leather

  • Supporters III
  • Others:Forum Leader
  • 22,443 posts

Posted September 24, 2005 at 06:53 am

Non ABS vans also use a height sensing proportioning valve in the rear (allows more rear pressure when the van is loaded than unloaded). I would consider this manditory for the conversion.

#13 theGUYman

theGUYman
  • Inactive
  • 496 posts

Posted September 25, 2005 at 01:32 pm

OK. Its done. Back to the future! Well, regular master brake cylinder and vacuum buster that is.

After 2 days of work, and bumps and bruises, (still a rookie I guess) it seems to be working. Here are some notes on the work:

As mentioned in the previous post, at my favorite boneyard I picked up master cyl, vacuum booster and hoses, brake pedal, proportioning valve, all for $28.00 I also cut the ends / fittings off the brake lines in case I need them in the conversion. Good thing I did. And I noted that the brake fittings for one side of the system are indeed bigger then the other side. The driver rear and passenger front brakes get the bigger fittings. I guess Chrysler did this as a safety measure to make sure the right lines went to the right spot on the proportioning valve. I also left the brake lines on the prop valve that run up to the master cylinder. Took about an hour. I will keep the old parts for my sister's van, which has the same ABS system.

Did the 40 "pressings" on the ABS brakes to release the pressure in the ABS system. Removed old ABS assembly, draining fluid out first with hand suction pump. Pretty much textbook removal. Brake lines loosened came off no problemo. Yeah! Removed ABS pump, as it will be in the way of the vacuum booster. Seems only one bolt holding it on the tranny, must of been R&R previously, I am sure. Oops: the brake line fittings are bigger then what will fit into the proportioning valve, and flaring is bubble, not double flare. Crap. Ok, need to get a double flaring tool, and learn how to do this quickly. The brake lines are longer then the standard installation, so I cut them down, put on the used brake fittings (paying attention which lines had the bigger fittings) and did the double flarings. A little cramped, but got it done. Attached the lines to the proportioning valve. That was fun, as the lines need to be "coaxed" to fit, as I should have cut them shorter. Having the spring wrap around the lines seem to help prevent sharp bends.

Ok, install the power vacuum booster. It was a tight fit, as the 1" cable bundle that runs to the firewall bulkhead connector seemed to be in the way. Well, pack it down to make room for the booster. Also had to change the hole in the rubber grommet just behind the firewall, as the old style booster sits lower then the ABS assembly. That explains why the linkage will not work with an ABS brake pedal. Good thing I brought that old brake pedal. Put the old pedal in and voila everything lines up. I had to push on the brake switch about 1/4" to make it work as this pedal sits a wee bit lower then the abs pedal.

Went to local parts store and picked up a reman brake cylinder and a gallon of brake fluid. Used the boneyard unit as core trade-in. Now add the rebuilt master cylinder. Attach lines. Go around to all wheels and try to snap loose the bleed screws. Great none broke, and are usable. Attach my home made pressure bleeder (made from a name brand pesticide sprayer). First time I use this, and WOW, does that work nice. But what a mess around the wheels during bleeding as my clear hose kept popping off the bleed screws. Did the rounds a few times, and it seems all the air is out.

Ok brake system has been bled. Test drive. Hey its working! Outstanding. Now to check the brake fluid and bleeding screws every now and then to see if things are leaking. Oh what a mess on the driveway.

Not knowing how to turn the power off to the ABS control module I unplugged the main connector, and unplugged the ABS Lamp relay. That way no warning lamps on the dash.

I do not seem to have the height sensing proportioning valve near the leaf springs. Hopefully I will not miss this, but then I rarely have big loads.

Ahh, nice old fashion braking system, great for the do-it-yourselfer! :lol:

Edit: Just to play it safe, if you proceed with this conversion, I strongly suggest getting your work checked over by a licensed mechanic.

Edited by theGUYman, November 8, 2005 at 11:56 am.


#14 valiant67

valiant67

    Rich, Corinthian Leather

  • Supporters III
  • Others:Forum Leader
  • 22,443 posts

Posted September 25, 2005 at 03:53 pm

I do not seem to have the height sensing proportioning valve near the leaf springs. Hopefully I will not miss this, but then I rarely have big loads.

An ABS van won't have the height sensing valve as the ABS controls braking force to the rear wheels. This would need to come from a non-ABS van (and you may want to consider adding it if your rear wheels tend to lock up under empty load/heavy braking).

Thanks for the how-to. Sounds like it was a lot of effort but good results.

#15 jpharr

jpharr
  • Active Member
  • 6 posts

Posted September 26, 2005 at 08:35 am

I completely disabled the ABS system on my '93 Gr Caravan SE.

Behind the air filter box and under the brake fluid resevoir, you will find two sets of cables that are connected there. I pulled the bundle apart that controlled the ABS system, used about a roll of electrical tape to completely and securely wrap both of the now-disconnected ends, put a piece of the same black tape over the idiot light in the "Information Center," and it worked like a charm for many years.

I did this after not being at all happy with the Dodge ABS performance, then after having the pump assembly replaced, only to have a front tone ring break and disable the system anyway. Tone rings on the front are part of the drive shaft, and I had already had the whole front end rebuilt. No way I was paying for that again.

The van was still going strong when I sold it with 225,000 miles on it. No more pump noises and no more guessing how the ABS was going to respond in the snow.

(When I ordered my Ford Focus, I ordered it WITHOUT the ABS and Traction Control. I think more manufacturers should allow consumers a choice. Maybe they do; I don't buy new cars very often....)

--Jim

#16 theGUYman

theGUYman
  • Inactive
  • 496 posts

Posted September 26, 2005 at 12:07 pm

To jpharr, you used the existing ABS system "deenergized"? Interesting. Wasn't the brake pedal really really hard to use?? I would think that would have made the braking almost impossible in emergency situations.

To all: had my fav licensed mechanic take a peak at my conversion. He took it for a test drive and said: "hey no problem with that".

He suggested keeping an eye on the brake line connections to ensure no sweating (leaks) occur. As for spilling brake fluid all over, "ah just use water to wash it off".

And some folks are wondering about the home-made pressure bleeder. I had made a reference to the website I read to do this in my previous post located here.. The article Is by Jim Powell at a BMW (no I do not have a BMW) site located here, complete with pictures. My bleeder is almost identical to the one in the article. The whole thing cost be about about $35.00, including a pressure gauge. I used about 10-15 lbs of pressure during my bleeding.

Enjoy!

Edited by theGUYman, September 26, 2005 at 12:11 pm.



.
Allpar

Home · Cars · Engines · Repairs · People
Tool and Car Reviews · News

Please read the terms of use and privacy policy. We are not affiliated with Chrysler Group, makers of cars, minivans, trucks, and Mopar (TM) parts. We make no guarantees regarding validity or applicability of information, opinions, or advice. Posts may be edited and used in other parts of allpar.com and affiliated Mopar (Dodge, Chrysler, etc) car related sites. We have the right to remove or modify any message, and to ban or suspend any user without notice. Logos and site-specific information copyright © 2001-2013 Allpar LLC; Chrysler PR materials remain property of Chrysler Group.