Busy days indeed
It looks as though Chrysler’s been busy shuffling people around again (see http://www.allpar.com/news/ ). Don Knott appears to have dropped from sight, though he was honored with being head of the famous SRT group - which seems to have responsibility for the Viper as well as the higher-powered sedans. We’re not sure what’s going on there, but your comments would be appreciated. The other changes seem fairly dense to outsiders as well, but shifting marketing and communications folk is probably the result of continued underperformance in the advertising and marketing arena. That is, Chrysler’s efforts seem to continually de-value the brands instead of pushing them forward and upward.
Part of the problem remains the absence of Plymouth “or equivalent.” The Eagle brand, though it has its followers still, was defined by its competitors: it was there to take import-car lovers, either through simply selling rebadged/rebodied foreign cars or by retuning authentic Mopars (Eagle Vision) to have a more European feel. But Plymouth was, for decades, the heart and soul of Chrysler Corporation. We don’t really blame Daimler for ending the brand; it was a domestic decision, we suspect. After all, efforts to move up into Mercedes territory were nixed because DaimlerChrysler already had Mercedes. (And soon it will no doubt have Volkswagen too.)
But what did Plymouth really do, other than sell (for most of its life) relatively bland cars that admittedly featured advanced engineering and outperformed competitors in just about every way? Well, that’s what it did. It was Chrysler’s Toyota, so to speak - the brand that people bought when they wanted endurance and reliability. Plymouth was one of America’s biggest brands for decades, on the strength of its known reliability, safety, and capability. The flat-head six started out as more powerful than Ford’s famous V8, and though by the time it was finally dropped it had long passed its prime, in the early days Plymouth offered more for the price than anyone else. Even in the 1970s and 1980s, you could look to Plymouth, if not for excitement, then at least for value.
Plymouth lovers point to a variety of “demise indicators,” such as the 1957 models that shook even stalwart fans’ belief in Chrysler’s quality, or the A-body Dodge Dart stealing Plymouth’s niche at the bottom of Chrysler, or for that matter the Valiant being spun off as its own brand in its first year. Then of course there was the Breeze, the afterthought Cloud Car. But perhaps the big problem really was the famous, incredible Plymouth Fury that set those speed records and provided an incredible package of speed for the price, because from that point on, Plymouth was into racing, and the brands started to get confused. While it’s true that Dodge stole the Valiant, Road Runner, and Duster from Plymouth, it’s also true that Plymouth stole the Superbird from Dodge, and the brand identities were never clearly defined in the muscle-car days. Someone in what we laughingly call Chrysler leadership should have stepped in to figure out where the racing was most appropriate. Perhaps NASCAR for Plymouth and all other venues for Dodge, or something like that… or vice versa. Certainly the Road Runner was the ideal Plymouth muscle car, but the GTX should have been a Dodge. Having a C-body Fury - a big luxury Plymouth? - was confusing enough.
A Dodge was in essence a Plymouth that cost $100 more and provided more space or more features. Chrysler was still readily identifiable until the Cordoba and, far worse, the LeBaron K-car and Town & Country minivan, which were all too obviously Plymouths with nicer grilles.
But what about the Plymouth haters, those who think the brand isn’t needed any more because, let’s face it, for 20-30 years, a Plymouth has been nothing more than a downmarket Dodgesler with a softer suspension?
Well, how on Earth are you going to give each division a strong identity if you don’t have Plymouth?
Chrysler is supposed to be attainable luxury, but the first vehicle in Chrysler’s lineup is the PT Cruiser, a car that’s all too obviously a Plymouth Truck, selling discounted for $14,000 with a manual transmission and windup windows. Not the sort of thing American buyers look for in an automaker that also sells $40,000 vehicles. Likewise, the Chrysler 300 with the small V6… the equivalent Dodge Charger starts out with a 3.5 liter V6 (but has to sell the 2.7 to fleets) and so beats Chrysler in features in the same car.
As for Dodge, it too suffers in its desire to have a clear, consistent reputation as the big, bold, quintessentially American vehicle. The Dodge minivan must be relatively bland; that’s what we want. But it doesn’t fit. Nor does a fleet Charger with a 2.7 V6, or a base-engine Caliber, or a four-cylinder minivan.
Plymouth does not need to be exciting, any more than Toyota does. Plymouth needs to be a value priced car with good technology and engineering and reliability, as Toyota is now and Plymouth was back then.
This is my ideal Plymouth car lineup:
1. Valiant: Caliber sedan with conventional styling. (Jeep already sells Caliber wagons.)
2. Plaza (or other name): mid-sized sedan, replacing Chrysler Sebring, which either gets really upscaled or goes away completely.
3. Fury: the cheap end of the LX, with no active suspension, limited options, and one engine, the 2.7. The fleets would love it, and then the 300 could be sold in 300C form only.
4. Voyager: return of the bland minivan.
5. Plymouth Truck - Cruiser.
Perhaps there should be a small Plymouth below the Caliber, either based on another manufacturer’s carline - as Chrysler is now proposing - or perhaps they should see about resurrecting the 1999 Neon, with the base 1.8 liter World Engine, at the lowest price point they can find. (Why the 1999? because, let’s face it, people liked it better.)
Having Plymouth around would free Chrysler to start with the 300C and go on up from there. Having Plymouth would free Dodge to get bolder and brasher without losing its huge sales base. Having Plymouth would also bring back those who will not buy a new DAIMLERchrysler vehicle, because they feel dissed by the superior-Stuttgart crew, and those who were habitual Plymouth buyers and who are leaving the fold because they are not Chrysler buyers, and that’s what they’re being offered.
“Chrysler is supposed to be attainable luxury, but the first vehicle in Chrysler’s lineup is the PT Cruiser, a car that’s all too obviously a Plymouth Truck, selling discounted for $14,000 with a manual transmission and windup windows.”
Windup windows? Er, no…manual locks, but PTs have always had power windows. I think the PT, if offered only in the higher trim lines with turbo motors, could be a good Chrysler, as long as they’d bump up the quality of the leather seating. Probably not the base motor, and certainly not the “base” trim level. Especially the current iteration of “base”. It’s probably the best example of what a perfect Plymouth would be though; available in a range of trim lines from low to high, but never really impinging on the ‘luxury’ aura that Chrysler would like to project (one would think). It’s also not a rebadged anything, which would be a huge plus. The practicality of it is right in line with Plymouth. Your point is sound in that the obvious fact Plymouths and Chryslers were so similar and right next to each other in the dealership hurt Chrysler more than helped Plymouth, so if they were to again be sold in Chrysler/Jeep dealerships they would have to be noticably different vehicles.
This would’ve been a *lot* easier to achieve had the brand not been killed off. That’s a tough marketing hurdle to overcome. The target market would be the same, but they may have already moved on to Hyundai, Kia, and the like. Tough to bring them back, though arguably easier than GMs attempt to find a new audience for Oldsmobile.
I would have to agree with you Dave.
However, Plymouth is a damaged brand in most of the public eyes, for the reasons that you have stated.
I do think that the CG needs a brands ala Plymouth ala Scion.
Scion had two cars orginally and it has worked up to 3 and more cars will come.
It fits the purpose of getting younger buyers into the company…it is very smart.
Whether this “brand” will be sold as Plymouth or Eagle or whatever…it is a brand that the CG needs.
I think the damage could be overcome very quickly and easily. For one thing, they could do a “by popular demand” advertising blitz, and they could also bring out the historical Plymouths - the Jim Benjaminson Plymouths - people would very quickly lose their very faint recollections of rebadged Dodges! I think those of us who are more “inside” the industry have a stronger feeling about Plymouth than those outside.
Yes, recovering from the Kia crowd would be hard, but I think a case could be made for domestic-production arguments as well as “real value” - “not just low prices.”
I think three things would be needed -
a) Corporate communications flowing fast and deep on Plymouth’s history and value, always stressing reliability and back-by-demand. This is not necessarily expensive. They could even contract it out to Jim B…! who writes better than their current crowd (so magazines and newspapers could clip-and-print instead of having to rewrite-or-toss).
b) Single price sales, similar to Saturn
c) Immediate cessation of any similar models - that is, you immediately rebadge PT, and when the Avenger comes out, it has a PLYMOUTH version and NOT a Chrysler version. Chrysler goes back to being upper-strata as soon as Plymouth appears.
Yes, I really do think it’s practical. And I agree - Chrysler-Jeep dealers should be alone, and they should be held to a far higher standard than Dodge and Plymouth dealers. (Indeed, though I’d make the case for Plymouth being standalone, I think you should be able to have a Dodge/Plymouth dealer without anyone saying “hey, aren’t these two cars the same?” Chryselr is able to make its cars much more flexibly now…)_
Devil’s Advocate mode:
OK, so they need a youth niche. What’s wrong with Dodge? The marketing is already tilted toward the youth market, and Dodge already cuts a wide swath in it’s prices so no one would blink twice at a Kia Rio competitor from Dodge, just as they don’t blink twice at a Chevy Aveo. All they need to do is create more seperation between Dodge and Chrysler and, since most Jeep dealers also sell Chryslers, ensure the Jeep Compass has a higher level of standard equipment than the Dodge Caliber.
Toyota created Scion because lots of kids’ parents drive Camrys, and there’s no joy there. The Echo isn’t the answer anymore than the Tercel was as far as a label with ‘pizzazz’. So they needed a new label for the image concious as they didn’t want to muddle the Toyota brand imagewise. A case would have to be made that the Dodge brand could not be used as the ‘youth’ brand while simultaneously used as a purveyor of ‘high value’ cars before any consideration of a revitalized Plymouth could occur.
Over at the Chrysler brand, this doesn’t solve the current PT Cruiser issue, but there’s enough time ’till the next one to rectify that and it’s easy enough to move Chrysler’s current offerings upmarket in terms of standard equipment levels. Money that would be spent reeducating people about Plymouth could be used to push Chrysler’s image upmarket.
An excellent case for bringing back Plymouth. It would finally set the true nature of the Chrysler Group. The image is still muddy from the outright deception of the “merger of equals”, which of course, it was not. Albeit, certainly there was active participation on the Chrysler side in accomplishment of Daimler taking over at Chrysler. But, to cut loose Plymouth? The decision still rings hollow in a whole bunch of people’s minds. On ALLPAR dare I say, geraldq certainly doesn’t mince his words about his depth of feeling concerning Plymouth. There is certainly a place for it, indeed, it is truly needed in the line up of the CG part of DCX. The analogy is made about Plymouth being the “Toyota” of the Chrysler Corportion back in the day. That is so true. Toyota may not evoke feelings of uphoria, however, it sells the Corolla which is and remains the best selling car in the USA. That is because it represents value, dependability, with the target group having given it the same thought level as their refrigerator. Nothing wrong with that. Lots of refrigerators sold every year, year after year. The only thing I would caution is that to be completely successful, Plymouth needs to be made in the image of itself. Not an also ran in the kid brother status that it was consigned to by Chrysler management after Walter Chrysler was gone. The sales outlets need to stand by themselves, with Plymouth vehicles. Certainly no where near a Dodge outlet! Chrysler cars need to be avoided too. You might pair them with a Jeep outlet, however, if so, then the Plymouth needs to be in first stead ahead of the Jeep, as in Plymouth - Jeep. Yes, the initial introduction of a revived Plymouth would need to cover at least three levels of trim. As well as letting the customer build one the way that they want it with a number of options. It would also need to jump back into the fleet business with the same spirit it once had when it was the fleet sale king. That certainly is not hard to trace or imitate. Something that Dodge has never been able to do, and still is failing to do right now. Plymouth understood the bidding process and fixated on meeting the demands of getting the “low” end of that operation. Time after time, they beat out Ford, Chevrolet, and their dearest and nearest competitor, Dodge! At one point, Plymouth was outselling the Dodge at 4 to 1. Sure, maybe the Dodge package landed the California Highway Patrol, but Plymouth landed all the cities, counties, townships and villages! Sometimes, there wasn’t any profit involved at all. Have to remember spares. And other things of future needs. Putting a Plymouth in a police car suit is good advertising as well. A constant rolling reminder of the brand. Given their own stores, the Plymouth would then need it’s own image. A mini-van. Three levels of trim. The PT just the way it is. A mid sized car not unlike the Stratus, with three levels of trim. Of course, the big car on the 300/Charger chassis again with three levels of trim. As well, it would need to look for a performance level vehicle in the Road Runner quise. That even available with the up market Hemi engines. I believe the interest level is already high enough that floor traffic at a newly envigorated Plymouth store would set the market on fire. A domestic brand with a Toyota displacement goal.
A quote from Dave
“Chrysler-Jeep dealers should be alone, and they should be held to a far higher standard than Dodge and Plymouth dealers. ”
The SUV/upscale brands verse the attitude/muscle/affordability brands. I couldn’t agree more.
OK Rich, I will go along with your advocacy for a moment. But then I really must ask what is wrong with Dodge? It has had a number of years now since the Plymouth went away and it hasn’t filled in where Plymouth ended or the niche that Plymouth had. What happened? Answer follows: It is a DODGE and not a PLYMOUTH. Dodge doesn’t know how to act to recapture that lost end of the market. Sticking some Super Bee decals on a four door sedan does NOT capture that share of the market that exploded when the Road Runner was created. There again, Dodge copying Plymouth as it very often did. It as a whole just never had the marketing pizzazz that the Plymouth folks had. Another good example was the Duster. Where did Dodge go with that one? Against some good sense advice they captured the car as their own calling it a DEMON. As for the PT issue, tell the good buying folks the truth. This was originally a Plymouth Truck and it is finally coming home. The prodigal returns. People would love it! The PT leads the way back home to PLYMOUTH. Bands, flags and all the Mom home baked apple pie stuff. The Plymouth represented good value and still could be made to do so again.
True, Curtis, all true. However, I was thinking of it from the POV of Joe Consumer who has a short memory and shorter attention span. Folks that probably wouldn’t remember the Sundance based Duster, let alone the original. That’s why I think the biggest obstacle to bringing back Plymouth is the “Dodge can fill that niche” argument. I think your arguments are on the right track there. I would definitely include in the proposal that Dodge not have vehicles (or, at least, trim lines) that directly compete. Since part of this whole scenario has Chrysler moving up, then Dodge can inch upmarket a little too and continue the hold on the ’sporty’ cars, which would leave a clearly defined segment for Plymouth to compete in. Anything less, IMO, would be pointless.
Interesting thought on the standalone Plymouth dealerships. That’s a really hard sell. I think it more likely that existing dealerships might add a Plymouth franchise as they did Hyundai & Kia franchises. If it succeeds, then you’d see standalone dealers, just as you now see standalone Hyundai & Kia shops.
I don’t think Dodge can fill the niche - well, you knew that from my argument. And my argument said why. Dodge is supposed to be big and bold, not entry-level or family oriented. Most cars now are family cars - as they always have been, as far as I can tell. Camrys outsell, well, just about all Dodge cars combined. Corollas, now that they are large enough, or also bread and butter family cars. The best selling Camry is a four cylinder model…! Excitement is great for Dodge. However, you don’t get to keep that image if you are also making staid, conservative minivans and entry-level sedans, any more than BMW could get away with having a conventional truck-based SUV and a budget entry-level four-banger economy sedan. (It would sell like hotcakes for a few years… and BMW would suddenly find itself unable to sell 3, 5, or 7 series cars without serious discounts.)
Plymouth is needed so Dodge can be big and bold - not just sayin’ so - and so Chrysler can be attainable luxury - not just sayin’ so. Until Plymouth returns, Dodge and Chrysler will both be 1/2 Plymouth and 1/2 themselves.
Right on my train of thought. Dodge can not step down (or up) depending on your particular view point. Dieter needs to comprehend just how badly Plymouth is needed. It will allow Dodge to be bigger and bolder and more defined within a certain appealling price segment. Further shoving Chrysler brands upwards, where they should be with keeping a weather eye on the new Imperial proposal. Excellent car IMHO. Lets not forget just how putting a Plymouth in the mix would go to making the Imperial the regal car that it seems to be appear. Keep your thoughts trained that way and Plymouth just naturally fits into the whole operation! And I like that statement Dave. Until Plymouth returns, Dodge and Chrysler will be both 1/2 Plymouth and 1/2 themselves. Delectable!! We need to banner that somewhere…….
From the Forums:
http://www.autoblog.com/2006/02/06/spy-photos-2007-chrysler-sebring/
Base motor in the Sebring’s the same ‘world motor’ in the Caliber & Compass. Continues to illustrate the point…
Will a part of this site be dedicated to just the “Chrysler” limited production cars?
Examples: The Turbine, Plymouth Trucks, Valiants with the 6 cylinder race engines.etc
Limited production is an interesting way to catalog vehicles. If you collect the pages I’ll set up the index. We have 1,200 pages or so.
I agree that Plymouth should be brought back. The PT Cruiser and a Barracuda version of the upcoming Challenger would be great. The Cuda would have a 5.7L Hemi instead of the 6.1L or maybe it could have both and it would be Plymouth’s hot car. Chrysler should be brought up market over the next decade and the Imperial would help that. There is no reason there should be a 2.7L 300 or Magnum; there should be a 2.7L and 3.5L Plymouth version of the 300/Charger with it’s own styling. The new 2007 Sebring should be only available with the 3.5L, a Plymouth version should have the 2.4L and 2.7L. And of course, a restyled Voyager van should be brought back in SWB and LWB versions with the 3.5L (Chrysler needs to offer more in its next vans besides Stow n Go and low prices, they need to match the Toyota and Honda quality, power and reliability). And please, restyle the front end of that awful Jeep Compass and make it a Plymouth as it should be. All of these cars could be primarily marketed towards fleet sales. Fleet sales are one of the worst things for a car company. They are image breakers and the influx of the “nearly new” models after one year takes away new car sales and lowers resale value as there are so many available. By making Plymouth a value car division that would allow both Chrysler and Dodge to make more luxurious and sporty models respectfully by not having them as rentals. The fleet sales of Plymouth and regained minivan sales would help boost Chrysler’s bottom line without sacraficing Dodge and Chrysler.
I do not know anyone who is a strict Plymouth loyalist. My grandfather was, in my lifetime he had a 79 Horizon and an 85 Caravelle before he passed in 1987. I own a 1999 Plymouth Neon, however, to me it is a Neon, not Plymouth, not Dodge, just a Neon. Chrysler really abandoned Plymouth years ago, the only Plymouth I can see having a loyal following was the Voyager. From the 1970’s on Plymouth was just an egg crate grill away from being a Dodge. If Chrysler ever was to pull its head out of its German butt, they would bring Plymouth back and make it a different kind of animal.