True patriotism
Curtis Redgap has presented us with the result of two months of spare-time work, a history of Chrysler’s tank production during World War II, and it set me to thinking. World War II was probably the nation’s most admirable war; we were fighting aggressive and mean-spirited foes, at least two of whom could be called “pure evil” (Hitler and Mussolini), as well as some rather nasty characters who threw their lot in with them. The American people, to a degree probably never seen before or since - except perhaps in the Revolutionary War - sacrificed their own comforts and safety, both civilians and fighting men and women. The Allies made some regrettable moves but in the whole fought unprincipled foes without stooping to their level.
http://www.allpar.com/history/military/arsenal-of-democracy.html
In World War I, copper miners went on strike to call the government’s attention to the hoarding of copper by mining companies, which drove up the price and hurt the war effort. The government’s response was to deport them to Mexico - never mind that they weren’t Mexicans. As far as I can tell, nothing like that happened in World War II. It was a different leadership - not the arrogant, class-conscious Woodrow Wilson, who brought America into a war that nobody needed to fight, to bring it to an early close (admittedly a lofty goal given the death toll in Europe), but the populist Franklin Roosevelt, who called upon all Americans, not only wealthy and white ones, to serve and to fight. Children gave up their toys for the metal in them; people of all ages and standings in society gave up comforts and cash; industry unquestioningly turned over their plants and materials. Automakers stopped making civilian cars entirely for years. It is worth noting that even had civilian sacrifice been totally unnecessary, Roosevelt’s actions helped to build the nation by making it a jointly felt and fought war - emotionally every American must have been involved. No doubt that helped to limit the profiteering that so badly hurt America during the Civil War, World War I, and of course the latest war, where profiteering has reached new levels of audacity and auditors are not allowed near the books. (If you find this last point offensive and untrue, I advise you to ignore the talking heads on TV and read some GSA reports.)
At Chrysler, patriotism reached what must be a historical high point for industry. Not only did Chrysler engineers work full tilt in what can only be described as an overpriced, under-achieving industry (defense contracting circa 1940), suggesting far cheaper and faster means of production, saving steel and other needed metals, and (for Heaven’s sake!) providing blueprints so everyone would make the same assemblies, reducing the need for slow hand adjustments, but they did so at absolutely no profit. If costs went down, Chrysler passed along a rebate to the military. In the end, Chrylser made absolutely no profit on their tanks - which they delivered far below the government’s estimated cost, in greater quantities, and with more rapid turnaround time and better reliability. What’s more, Chrysler’s leaders did not, as today’s military contractors and White House leaders do, sock away hundreds of millions for themselves. They did not move Chrysler Corporation to the Cayman Islands, offer bribes, or “leak” secrets so they could discredit, say, the leaders of Ford across the street. They did take $5 per year as their salaries during those wartime years so the nation would be able to defeat the unspeakably disgusting Nazis (not to mention the Japanese, Italians, Arabs, and other Axis powers) that much more quickly.
Why did they do it? Perhaps it was because of FDR. He worked with unions and set up fair labor laws so that there would be continued production without, as in the past, the use of military units to deport, kill, or jail citizens who demanded a working wage - enough money for food, housing, and clothing, without going permanently into debt to the company store. He constantly kept the nation up to date on affairs without being caught in constant lies. He drove a Plymouth, not a Cadillac. And as we said before, he called for everyone to sacrifice, not just the soldiers, and not just the soldiers and the factory workers. He called in industry leaders to lead the war production effort, and coopted the nation’s industrial base without, we must note, nationalizing it. He offered a fair profit but demanded accountability - the United States, in 1944, would not simply throw billions of dollars at contractors and then refuse to audit where the money was going. FDR cared about the United States - and I don’t think even his foes, who saw him then as a slightly gentler version of Stalin, would argue that today. What’s more, he cared about all Americans.
World War II was an incredible contrast to World War I in many ways. In WWI, the military of England was still dominated by class, with military concerns, according to some observers, taking second place to form and society; in WWII, in both the US and England, the only thing that counted was performance. Both countries rightly felt this was a battle for their survival - had the US not entered the war, Hitler would almost certainly have gained the nuclear bomb. World War II brought incredible advances not only in physics, aviation, rocketry, and wartime technology, but also in social sciences - psychological and civil service testing (an millenia-old art/science in China, admittedly) to put the right people into the right units, and later social science advances to find out how Nazi Germany developed and what could be done to prevent it. (Yes, people do know, if only someone would care to listen - that’s an area of social psychology that remains relatively undeveloped!) Though military units were generally not integrated, the war also showed that skin color is no barrier to bravery or competence or flying ability and, on the home front, to being able to work in factories and stores. The civil rights movement owes at least some of its success to the war.
The United States hardly seems like the same country now. I cannot imagine the government in 1944 allowing foreign nations run by ruthless dictators or oligarchies (Saudi Arabia, China, and others) to own such huge quantities of government debt that they could destroy the US economically in the blink of an eye. Nor can I imagine anyone sitting idly by and watching troops die while foreign companies rake in hundreds of billions in unaudited taxpayer money, devastating our economy when the time comes to pay up, while taxes are actually reduced. Yes, during World War II, the wealthy were expected to contribute far more than others - in wartime, you are expected to give what you can, not what everyone else gives. And the very, very last thing I can imagine during those wartime years is the shameful spectacle of a president actually leaking the details on an important undercover spying operation, resulting in the possible deaths and certain uselessness of the many agents involved in it, solely to discredit a single political opponent. That makes the excesses of MacNamara and his ilk almost seem acceptable.
What we need today is more 1944 and less 2004. The distinguished history of Chrysler during World War II should become common knowledge. The selfless behavior of K.T. Keller and his compatriots should be a blazing example taught to American school children and adults alike. After all, who could be better role models?
Your account of the spy leak is grossly misinformed and not factually correct. Anything that happened has not put anyone in danger nor has it put an end to any secret mission. The woman in question was a paper pusher in Washington and was no longer even covert. There was no secret spy operation to be leaked. Anyway, is this a car site or just another low rate liberal blog? I like the car info, but I do not like the attempts to influence me politically when I come here. AND it doesn’t work.
Thank you for such kind comments. I heartedly agree that we need a whole LOT more 1944 and a lot less of the past business of the 90’s right up through today. My parents lived through World War II, as my grandparents as well. None of them considered themselves outstanding in any way. It was just something that needed to be done. There was absolute trust in the govenment institutions. No Watergates, no Whtie Waters, no Lewinskis, no Iraq wars. There was also respect from people in government to the public, as well as it was returned to those spirted public servants. If the government said that they could only buy 10 gallons of gasoline for the week, they didn’t protest on the street corners about it, or institute law suits. They simply accepted that it was something that needed to be done. Like the many other millions of citizens, they rolled up their sleeves and just got it done!
Franklin Delano Roosevelt was elected in 1932, taking office in 1933. He was a patrician sort of man, and considered himself as being “born” to be President, hence his unprecedented re-elections in 1936, 1940, and 1944. He couldn’t reliquish the power he felt in his own belief that anyone could replace him. He was not the best administrator by any means, however, he was the consummate politician, choosing some good and decent people to fill out his cabinet. As a politician he had his bag of tricks, and loved to play his subordinates off against each other. This is a trait that I disliked about his administration. However, in all respects, he certainly appears to be honest to a fault, and had a way to let ordinary people feel that he was talking directly to them. His “fireside chats” over the public radio were always the things my parents talked about. It was like Dad reassuring his family that we would be o.k.
Writing about Chrysler Corporation and its role to the World War II effort is something that needs to be done. The real heros of that period, the veterans, are dying off at a rate of about 1,000 a day. The populace that saw the fighting personnel through the conflagration are also dying off at a rate about 3 times that. A lot of history will never be recorded about the “greatest generation” with all their passing. Our own Bob Sheaves Dad went through and served World War II, and I am given to understand went to work for the very Arsenal that I wrote of, after he came home. To the extent of what he saw, did, and served, no matter what the part, should be a matter for us all to consider. Perhaps Bob will someday share some of this with us.
Chrysler Corporation was involved in all the major projects of World War II. They were the “engineering corporation” which was a well deserved reputation. Not one……. not ONE SINGLE thing that the corporations was tasked with was turned away. All were seen through to completion and contributed substantially to the ending of the war. They all worked to perfection, the first time, and every time. That is why the Corporation itself stands as one of my personal heros.
Chrysler Corporation was heavily involved in the “Manhatten Project”, which we all know now was the code name for the undertaking of building a device that could cause an atom chain reaction, releasing tremedous amounts of energy. A lot of what Chrysler did was way beyond “TOP SECRET” but a lot of that has been declassified. Not all, of course, but enough so that it makes for an intriquing story. While it may have been the biggest spectacle of the war, it was not the biggest investment, as some would leave you to believe. It tooks years of chicanery, resolute determination, and manipulation to get the project on track. From the letter from Alber Einstein to Franklin Roosevelt to the actual start of the Manhatten Project took 3 long years. Without Chrysler, there would have been no “gadget” built. A true testament to Engineering.
Mr. Anonymous, I don’t know where you get your info from, but YOU are grossly misinformed. In addition to providing the name of the woman, who by no means was a mere “paper pusher,” (and I assume you’d but Donald Rumsfeld and the Joint Chiefs of Staff into the same category, since they don’t spend all their time on active duty in foreign lands?), the White House also released details of the cover operations they were working under - an ACTIVE undercover operation. I personally believe that the government has a decent case against Bob Novak for publishing the details of this story - because active agents could very well have been killed as a result.
Real patriots don’t expose CIA agents who are working to protect their country from real enemies.
And Curtis - you’re right about FDR’s weaknesses, and I’m sure he had others - just as Churchill himself had many flaws. But we’re all human, and as you imply, it’s the balance and the motivation that count in the end.
Generally I think the presidency brings out the best in people - we’ve had some real, um, unsavory characters in there - LBJ and Nixon come to mind, and if you pressed me I’d add Bill Clinton and George Bush Sr. to the list - who have, once in office, done some surprisingly brave things that they must have known would hurt their popularity and/or their base, but did them anyway.
Personally I am proud of Chrysler’s heritage, not that I had anything to do with it other than making a few sales for them back when they were still independent, and to this day believe they were the most patriotic automaker you will ever find. What’s more, UNLIKE Ford, they did not have German factories that they operated for Nazi Germany, making war materials to kill Allied troops with - and they certainly - UNLIKE Ford - would NEVER have sued the American government for damages to those factories after the war ended!
Oh, and one final comment. You mentioned respect for authority. That was largely, I believe, a result of the leadership. During the Civil War there were a number of riots over the draft because it was perceived as - and in reality - unfair since the wealthy could and did simply buy their way out; and there was a great deal of profiteering that was apparently tolerated. The same was true during World War I in terms of profiteering. For that matter, there were any number of scandals in other administrations before and after FDR, especially in the Gilded Age, with Tammany Hall and the Tweed Affair, etc. Mark Twain makes interesting reading to get a sense of those - and our own - times.
Respect is partly earned, and FDR’s great achievement was BUILDING that level of citizenship. Today, we have been asked to sacrifice NOTHING but our children’s future, to the tune (currently) of about $25,000 for every man, woman, and child in the country. If we are treated as responsible adults by people who act like responsible adults, then as a nation we will grow up. If we are treated as ignorant children by a man who lives like an ignorant, greedy child, then as a nation we become immature and greedy.
Flaws with Churchill…sure but at least he was against the German party (that is what I will call it) from the get go. They only man to stand up to them. FDR stood at the sides for many years before entering into the war…and only doing so after America was attacked. Sorry, but in my eyes there is no comparison.
And to Anonymous….Libby has stated in court documents that he did leak the CIA name after Bush de-classified the documents. Bush has yet to say that wasn’t the case.
With FDR, I think most historians agree that he wanted to go to war but knew he’d never be elected. A bit sleazy - Abraham Lincoln did the same thing, though, you can see in his speeches and letters he didn’t let his true beliefs get too well known! but he did have the welfare of the country at heart. As I said, motivation counts for a lot. FDR started wartime preparation as quickly as he could given Americans’ understandable desire (after the insane entry into World War I and post-war flubbing) to stay out of Europeans’ conflicts. But when it comes to fighting Nazis, I guess I’d give Churchill extra credit.
Direct to Mr. Anonymous. It does appear to me, at least, that perhaps you have been listening too the talk radio master way too much. This sort of debate, particularly since this area is a WEB LOG, is received quite well. I am going to say that I am unsympathetic to what you wrote because it is quite obvious that you have closed your mind to the issues. It is a car place, yeup, but the greatest achievement about this forum to date, is the respectful debate engaged here in this forum on a huge wide range of topics, amoung which happens to be politics and current events. Dave happens to own the place, but no one holds that against him, and to his great credit, he doesn’t hold it against anyone else, especially if it is a very divergent view from his own! In fact, sometimes, I wonder how he keeps it under control as I want to wade right in, action in hand, and go for broke. I admit, that it does get me in a touch of a problem sometimes. One of the very contributors to this blog and I were about to go to war when I probably had a bad meal one night. However, in the end, cooler heads prevailed, and I have to admit I admire his thinking, and his posts are prolific along with the major contributions to the blog here. Perhaps you might take a sort of insight into doing the very same. Come back and visit anytime, the door, unlike your thinking here, is always open.
Of course, I sort of confined my previous comments to the 1940s. It was a very different world and a different country. There are many conspiracy theorists out there that want to put FDR right in the middle of trying to “make” war in that he pushed Japan deliberately. That he knew all along that they were going to attack and did nothing to stop it. That he needed a war to get the country and the world out of monetary depression. FDR and Churchill plotted together to force the Japanese into war. I can state that as a student of history in that era, in all the material, about all the men, on all sides, there isn’t one single iota of evidence that anyone knew, except the exaulted circle of high ranking Japanese that we were going to be attacked with the subsequent retaliation into war. Not one single thing. We forget that these people are just human beings with ALL, and sometimes even FATAL attendant flaws! It would take a encyclopedia level of writing to catalog each and every person’s failings, before, during and after the war. However, above all, FDR treated the American People as his equal, albeit, sometimes tending to make us his “children.” He pulled no punches, and gave the tough speeches that portended the medicine that we had to swollow. I don’t think we have seen that in a President since the assination of John Kennedy. That act, alone, surely changed the direction, politics, thinking, and dreams of this country for the absolute worst. Reason it out, and you will see where it goes. But again, I digress way too much with the passion I have for this era. Sure, ABSOLUTELY FDR wanted to go to war. He understood the need for it given the absolute evil of the NAZIFICATION of Europe and Russia, and he certainly wanted to help his old friend (and they were GREAT friends, even to the end) Winston Churchill, who was leading a valiant,desparate fight for the very life of Great Britain. He did pretty well, waiting some 2 years and two months before the “arsenal of democracy” woke up to smell the acrid bitter fumes of war.
FDR acted as much as he could given the politics upon which he was elected to his second term. War seemed eminent in Europe, and there were great powerful forces at work in the USA that either refused to see the truth of the evil or had other vested interests to prevent us from going directly to war at the same time Great Britain did. FDR, even on his own authority began sending materials to England that were cast off from our own military. He managed to arm twist enough congressional support to get the “Lend_Lease Act” signed into law. He wasn’t asleep by any means. He also juggled the forces that sought to undermine his very stuggle to keep England alive. It is one great story. One that is past, of course, but one that continues to have huge influence over our lives to this very day.
Why did G W Bush authorize such a leak? What was deemed so necessary? There are more issues yet to be discovered. But here again, powerful political forces are at work to keep it contained. And the Democrat party is NO better in this. They are using it for pure political gain instead of getting at the truth, which should be the heart of the matter. We have let ourselves be duped over and over again by polticians, who despite all their public bickering, still go clubby and insure that they are all taken care of onto themselves, no matter what the political stripe they have on them!
Well, the Democratic Party is a _little_ better in that they did not make the leak in the first place. Nor did they try to discredit “by all means necessary” the Republican candidates with outright lies spread by “independent groups” with close links to the central party apparatus (Vietnam Vets for Truth anyone?). That said, Clinton was as influenced as anyone by the Saudi (and domestic criminal) cash. But these are other stories…and it’s hard to try to get to the truth when the majority party won’t let you hold official hearings or conduct investigations with people sworn in under oath.
While there is no doubt that we had prior warning of the attack on Pearl Harbor, I think historians pretty much all agree that the issue was incompetence and poor planning rather than malicious intent by FDR.
I must admit I like the suggestion that was made that, for legal purposes, both the president and press secretary be held to their words as though they had been sworn in at court.
But you see it dengrades into just so much political spin instead of the “truth” whatever it might turn out to be. Neither party has a lock on honesty by any stretch, given that their vested interest is to stay in power, and not to serve the people as statesmen. We, as citizens have condoned it, and for certain, we have now arrived at the sort of government that we are willing to tolerate to the lowest common denominator! I don’t believe for one second that the DEmocrats are seeking the truth. They are only seeking political betterment, and would in the blink of an eye, put as much political spin on a situation, even the present investigation of Bush’s reported leak, to cover their part in any of it. And I am sure that there were democrats involved in a lot of the things that have gone on.
I follow a different belief about the Pearl Harbor attack. There were many indications, as we saw AFTER the fact that everyone and his brother knew about the attack. Not so by a long stretch. We all recognize that hindsight gives perfect vision. Ultimately, in all the research I have conducted over 25 years, I have never found anything that Roosevelt felt threatened by a forthcoming Japanese attack. Truly. I have never found any evidence that FDR or the Joint Chiefs of Staff were TRULY CONVINCED that Japan would actually attack in the way that they did. The Phillippines seemed more the target rather than Pearl Harbor. Of course, they were not all fools to suffer information lightly either. There were plenty of warnings, certainly, but, failure to put it all together, meant precisely that they DID NOT KNOW it was coming. They may have felt that Japan was ramping up to war, however, the USA would have garnered enough information to know where the attack or war might start. The exact location along with the date remained like a heavy fog in front of our intelligence services and none ever expected nor believed that Japan could attack such as was the one mounted at Pearl Harbor.
For Pearl Harbor I was referring to the several warnings that came just a few hours before - which were mentioned in the recent radar article. I agree that our leaders were blind-sided.
I also want to point out something very important about the Chrysler Corporation in the efforts of WW II. Don’t you find it very interesting the Lt. General Knudsen, within less than a week after his appointment within the war department, contacted Chrysler Corporation instead of seeking the same thing within his former employer? He was and had been PRESIDENT of GENERAL MOTORS for over three years! It speaks volumes to me.
First off, Curtis - the article is amazing, and I’ve not even finished it yet!
Second..when you consider the ease of information coming out now with the internet and ‘instant news’, it does make me wonder if many of the same things have always gone on, they were just never heard about. The greater trust in our elected officials also might have tempered the thought of ‘investigative journalism’ - after all, why dig deeper if you trust those in power already?
I wasn’t alive then so I don’t know…it just makes me wonder. Today, I’m among those that feel that the chief aim of politicians - of any party - is to stay in power. It’s why NJ’s new smoking ban exempts casinos…because the casino lobby is very strong and has lots of money.
I think there’s a “yes and no.” Frankly the traditional media HAVE reported on much of the scandal (and the unprecedented rejection of policy by the nation’s generals, those who can speak - which is to say those not still in active service - not to mention Clarke and others). They just don’t make nearly as much of a fuss as they did about Clinton’s escapades. And some have noted that the things Clinton did that really were crimes were never reported on much - just the sensationalistic rubbish. Nobody on Capitol Hill seems to want to dig into where the money comes from because both major parties feed from the same trough. The question becomes, in a way, which one is less corrupt and/or less invasive and/or less criminal. And there ARE honest politicians, even now.
I agree with you, Rich. And FWIW I’m very disappointed in the new guv - well, I guess our temporary appointed lame duck spoiled me! But with his wealth you’d think he’d be able to do a clean sweep. (Not that wealth made Whitman more honest.) Just more of the same pay to play.
And that is one of the things that makes the story all the more remarkable. People COULD have stolen much more…or even just taken what was their fair share of profit.
By the way, Ed Flynn of our local Record-owned weekly paper had an interesting article bringing up many of the same points. I’ll have to share Curtis’ story with him and see if we can get permission to use his column.
Did you say column? Now that would be interesting. I hope they do publish my little effort because it is of a generation that will never be again. People ought to know.
Now that I have both of you in the same circle of thinking that I am, and have been for a very long time, I believe that there ought to be a public accounting for each penny that goes into a politicians pocket NO MATTER WHERE it comes from or WHAT ITS INTENDED USE. Those critters that hide under rocks, fade in the brillent light of public view. If there are honest potiticans willing to act as true statesmen, then they will rise to the top. But right now the in place system rewards those that steal, lie, cheat, and emmerse themselves in the putrid stream of corruption. Very few are caught, and only, as in Cunningham’s situation because another scandel monger got POed at him. Imagine. No oversight or investigative arm or law enforcement function looked at him for 8 years!
Don’t walk the fence David. The Generals are speaking out because essentially those are the same officers and gentlemen that wanted to ensure that we would never suffer through another horror like the 10 years of Viet Nam whereby we ended it with absolutely no honor, sneaking out the back door like thieves in the night. 50,000 good and true people dead, and for exactly what? We now are in the same fix with Iraq. And for what? Freedom? Not going to happen. You will NEVER establish a democracy without freedom of religion, and Islam does not allow such practices. There are no Islamic Democracies in any country. You might present Turkey, but I don’t think they are as democratic as we envision. Again the prevasive influence of the Muslim religion overshadows personal choices, things cherised by democratic governed people. The media is as twisted as any other organ of the system. Few will report the unvarnished truth, and all will rush to feed off the same body of disinformation when it suits the purpose of selling newspapers or air time!
Turkey is NOT an Islamic democracy - that is how they stay a democracy (and they are democratic, just not as democratic as they could be - I could point out election “irregularities” here at home, or the appointment of the current president by the courts when there was plenty of time for a recount). One of the problems Turkey faces now is a growing movement to make Turkey an Islamic republic and not a secular one. If that happens, good-bye democracy.
(There are technically religious democracies - just about any country in Europe! - but they do all have freedom of religion now. England did NOT have freedom of religion but was technically a democracy for a brief time.)
I do not mean to be walking the fence, but nor do I wish to start needless fights. Yes, those generals are speaking out to avoid another Vietnam, and also to avoid the destruction of our defense capability - and were you aware of the outsourcing directives which remove the armies’ ability to keep key skills in-house, and instead force them to pay companies, some of them not even American companies (Halliburton comes to mind as always), to do this work? The current White House leadership, unchallenged by a cowardly collection of Congressional chicken-hawks, has chosen time and time again to value cash for themselves and their friends over national security. I cannot find a single place where they let security needs win over personal greed and lust for power. Our ports are still open, our nuclear plants barely protected, our chemical plants barely protected, gas reserves in New Jersey refineries laughably close to public roads with nary a guard in sight. Any terrorist - domestic or foreign - wanting to create a catastrophe could do so with incredible easy - perhaps a rifle and a flaming arrow could wreak untold havoc, and a getaway might even be possible. As far as I know we even have trains carrying WWI nerve gases (chlorine for example) traveling right through New York City. Clinton’s admittedly small steps to safeguard former-Soviet weapons and nuclear supplies have largely been disbanded, and if anyone trusts the leaders of Russia and the former republics to safeguard those, I think that person is a bit out of touch.
Meanwhile our country has been bankrupted and put into a debt we cannot repay with decades of tight spending, and the deeds are held by our enemies in China and Saudi Arabia. North Korea is allowed to have a nuclear bomb building program, and we are tacitly endorsing it with talk of tactical nuclear strikes on Iran - a country where the population is reportedly pro-American and anti-Iranian-leadership.
I personally am disgusted with the knowledge that one full third of Americans are so deluded and misinformed, or so stubborn, that they still cannot see any of this at all and think Bush is a great patriot.
One thought does help lift my spirits - I have full confidence in our military leaders to NOT follow orders to use nuclear weapons on Iran.
Curtis, am I off the fence yet?
Thanks I appreciate those comments. I think the same of you.
Person knows what I am talking about :)
Dave,
You state: ‘were you aware of the outsourcing directives which remove the armies’ ability to keep key skills in-house, and instead force them to pay companies, some of them not even American companies (Halliburton comes to mind as always)’ Please state what you’re refering to here. If you mean Halliburton’s logistics operations; I disagree. We have regularly used civilian companies to assist in military logistics: moving food, fuel and ammo. This is a good thing. I can’t think of any other company with the worldwide logistics capability to move what Halliburton can move and I want the US military staffed with soldiers not truck drivers.
You state: ‘Any terrorist - domestic or foreign - wanting to create a catastrophe could do so with incredible easy - perhaps a rifle and a flaming arrow could wreak untold havoc, and a getaway might even be possible’ This is an interesting point, but you don’t offer a solution. Do you want an even stronger Patriot act, stronger border enforcement? If so, then I definitely agree with you.
You state: ‘Clinton’s admittedly small steps to safeguard former-Soviet weapons and nuclear supplies have largely been disbanded, and if anyone trusts the leaders of Russia and the former republics to safeguard those, I think that person is a bit out of touch’ These efforts have not been disbanded, they’re in progress. To make them move faster, the Russians require money. Something they don’t have a lot of so what’s your solution. Do we give them more money? I don’t trust the Russians either, but I’m don’t favor giving them more money to engage activities they already committed to perform.
You state: ‘North Korea is allowed to have a nuclear bomb building program’. In reality, this was pursued in violation of UN instructions and broken promises made to the US. Again, what’s your point here.
You state: ‘we are tacitly endorsing it with talk of tactical nuclear strikes on Iran’. I’d certainly hope our leaders are reviewing all options when dealing with threats to our security. If they’re not, we won’t be fully prepared. How do you weigh the pros and cons of a solution when the first thing you do is take a solution off the table? I certainly feel sympathy to the students in Iran who want democracy, but just like Iraq, there are those who want democracy and those that don’t want democracy.
You state: ‘I have full confidence in our military leaders to NOT follow orders to use nuclear weapons on Iran’. Personally, I prefer my leaders: civilian. Don’t get me wrong, I support the military and I support a retired generals right to speak up if he’s got a beef (or a book to sell). I guess I just prefer leaders that are elected. We don’t get to choose our generals. We choose the guys who choose the leaders who choose the generals, and they need to follow orders.
Regarding my last counterpoint which captures some of your thoughts on the first point, you have a problem with President George Bush because you don’t think he was chosen by the voters. You frame this complaint by discussing the recount rather than discussing the electoral college. The US Supreme Court held in Bush v. Gore, on December 11, 2000, the ballot recount being conducted in certain counties in the State of Florida was to be stopped due to a lack of a consistent standard AND there was insufficient time to establish new standards for a recount meeting Florida’s deadline for certifying electors. After the election, a consortium of news organizations (USA Today, Miami Herald, Knight Ridder, Tampa Tribune, and five other newspapers) conducted a full recount of Florida ballots. According to their results, under the strictest standards for vote counting, (remember the butterfly ballots: dimpled chads, etc) Bush won. Under looser standards, Gore won. However, a Gore win was impossible without a recount of overvotes, which he did not request. Bush won the electoral college and that’s the law.
Oh my YES! On solid ground now sir! Of course, you know that there are moments that necessitate clarifications. My short jab like comment did evoke the response I felt that you were trying to make. That reason is because for many weeks, I have watched what is a clear failure of this administration to represent the people of this country. With the fast approaching mid term elections the in power based Republicans are now running scared because they did not stand up for their own values. They have no one to blame but themselves. My real fear is, however, that the replacement choices we will be given will be NO better, or will act without reason, in a gleeful mood of “we beatcha” which is not the sort or representation we need in these very troubling times.
Your comments on the debt is rapier sharp, but no one seems bent on any means to reverse this. Bush actually submitted a budget that for the first time in the country’s history, has bankrupted the USA! And the gutless members of the Congress reacted by allowing it to happen, through the raising of the debt ceiling! How does this benefit the people in any given way. Our children, grand children, great grand children and great great grand children are now going to be automatically endebted to the Federal Government at the moment of their birth, NEVER being able to pay off this debt, under the current given circumstances. Is this our future? Allowing other countries who are NOT our friends to buy up the notes. China is reacting to our pressure to value its currency by threatening to move to the Euro standard, which would automatically increase our pay back obligation because the Euro is higher valued. We have to start demanding much more of these elected officials. We need to look for those that are statesmen and NOT politicians. People who will serve with honor and seek to represent what is best from this country, rather than what is best for the politicans pockets. Letting contracts without bids is something from the previous administration that just is so wrong headed it is unbelievable. Yet, the Republican leadership not only lets it stand, it is aided, abetted, and protected because of the position of the Vice President.
In reference to the Nuclear situations in North Korea and Iran, consider that China is the wild card. We lost huge amounts of soldiers in a so called “police” action in Korea. We continue to spend millions of dollars to protect a line on a map. We rattle the saber but in reality, hope that the communist leader in North Korea self destructs, rather than us taking any action. The implication that China would react unfavorably, as they did before, is quite clear. Iran on the other hand is right next to the current war, instigated by the USA and this President. By continued vilification, instead of political action within the country (isn’t this what the CIA is supposed to be doing) we threaten to invade them for the purpose of intervention into a soverign nation’s business. The current Iranian President is clearly unstable, the regime oppressive, however, we are not playing to the citizens over there, which is where change rests. Attack seems to be on the minds of this administration as evidenced by the public statement yesterday that “Iran is nearing the point of no return.” A clear indication of what is on the minds of those in charge, and an obvious threat. You cannot believe that Russia would not act should anything happen. Clearly they are not to be trusted in any way, as they are not now nor have they ever been friends of this country.
I am 100% in agreement with you.
I will just add one more point of interest - I’ve noticed that groups like moveon.org have started a campaign of fighting “business as usual” Democrats as well as lemming Republicans.
I’m not blinded by party; I’ve voted both ways; but I want to see what they do, not what they say. I think too many people assume that Democrats always tax and spend, and Republicans are always least-government conservatives. That’s sometimes true but all too obviously often untrue.
I wonder if we have reached the critical mass of people being angry enough to demand an end to the party system? The current system certainly isn’t in the Constitution.
I would be very leery of anything sponsored by George Soros. He is the sole provocator behind the moveon web site. His interests are not that of the good people of the United States. He has WAY too much money to even be able to relate on any sort of problems associated with living from paycheck to paycheck. I fear his political inclinations. In a very real sense, his interests are not of the betterment of the United States, in that, he seeks to distableize the processes by which we operate. Not that I am against changes……. they are SORELY needed for certain, especially in the selection of the people we put up for elective office, as well as the bureaucracy that oversees the very same elections. However, I am distrustful of anyone who has enough money to buy every single person in the United States to the tune of a million dollars apiece!
As you indicate, we need to be mindful of the deeds, and bring into the light the lies as well as the truthes of each person that is selected for elective public office. I watch in abject repulsion of the spend thrift current administration and wonder how anyone associated with it can lay any claim to “conservative” when it comes to the handling of the public purse. These guys busted the budget! Something I still can’t concieve of in this country. Giving credit to Clinton, (and I really don’t like to give him anything, including the time of day) at least he made an effort to bring sanity to the spending habits of the departments he oversaw. Bush threw everything into the bucket when he sought and got the consolidation of 22 different departments, with diverse missions, under the cobbled up Homeland Security nomenclature. It has been a fiasco and ill serves the public to the EXTREME. While there was not enough accountability before the HSA, now there is NONE AT ALL. The Border Patrol, for all the effort of the tried and true employees, risking their lives daily, are trying to turn back the tide with a tool equilvelent to a spoon in the ocean! That is but one example, whereby the continuing influx of people who do not pay taxes, because they are undocumented, along with the indifference of employers who pay them, puts MORE strain on public budgets on ALL levels. There are hundreds of more abuses of the public trust, but no one seems to want to step up and take that accountability….. except perhaps Haliburton which only fosters more unaccountability because there is no contract or anyone else willing to step into the breech.
And I also have to speculate with you about the end of this so called two party system. Doesn’t it seem that they are all just old cronies under the surface. Big messy public fights, with lots of spectaular name calling, finger pointing, accusations, and assorted other political tricks which is nothing more than window dressing for the next election. Each insuring that the other will continue to be elected. Recall the splashy public rows between Ronald Reagan and “Tip” O’Neal whereby you would swear they were both about to go to arms and blow each other away. However, in the background, there was a nice cozy arrangmement for lots of Federal “pork” some of which was orchastrated by Reagan himself going back to help O’Neal. Amazing two party system….. eh? And of course, there was the spectacle of O’Neal well into his cups at his favorite watering hole after his retirement, telling all how much he really “loved” Ronald Reagan. What a great system this two party thing is. The founding fathers warned direly against it. As my tag line says: Those that do not heed the lessons of history are bound to repeat it.
We might be polar political opposites in some ways but we sure agree on what you just wrote.
I just wish more Americans would hold politicians accountable for what they do, not what they say. Someone is not religious because they talk about God and go to church; it’s all in their actions. Anyone can sit in church each week and look pious, but when they preach and preach about God and then go have an affair while their wife is dying of cancer (Newt), or start wars that kill tens/hundreds of thousands for personal profit while bankrupting their country (Bush), or make profitable deals with genoicidal dictators (Robertson), they deserve only our contempt…and maybe a nice long jail sentence.
Note: edited.
I think we agree on a lot more than what I just wrote. You know opposites attract. There is a genuine possibility that our diverse views could well form a powerhouse for accountability. It is a well orchestrated scheme to get everyone to focus on the sound bytes, rather than the solid substances that go for the make up of a person who we are putting our trust and interests in when we elect them. Political campaigns are anchored in the minute rather than the years behind where a person’s true record stands. I fret over people like the previous President who committed some real crime, then used the military option to draw attention away from things. Worse yet, is the abysmal record of his wife, the NY Senator, who may even be responsible for people’s deaths, certainly, clearly, corrupt and drunk on the acquisition of power. Stealing government property certainly should qualify for criminal action, and she took the White House China and silverware sets. What sort of person does this? What else can they be up too now. People do not hold her responsible, yet the White Water property scandel was never brought out to fruition, with some 14 witnesses ending up dead. Scary stuff if you take a few moments to read it, objectively, without a political agenda. However, even the Devil goes to Church, and I am not certain where all this sound byte religion is going either. Powerful TV evangilists raising millions of dollars, right out of the pockets of those that probably can’t afford it, such as seniors on Social Security incomes only. All for the hope of making it through to the next world, of course, with the bright kelig lights of TV shining on the path to get there. So as we fail to hold the government accountable, so then other institutions take on the same proportion of failure, lackadasical attitudes, and no accountabilty whatsoever. Supreme Court ruling that private property can now be condemned for a PRIVATE developer should a jurisdiction decide that more tax income could be had. Ending over 200 years in the solid belief that what you owned, was yours as long as you and your heirs wanted it. No more. Where is the accountability for that sort of decision, except in the monied pockets of those rich individuals who could care less about the average person, except to beat them out of their money. Jail time? Absolutely. Hard time. Leavenworth. Not club Fed.
What gets me is think back to the political capital this President had after 9/11. Imagine what could’ve been pushed through Congress to truly better the country. A bi-partisan gas tax designed to fund alternative fuels and lessen our dependence on foreign oil? Done. People could’ve been rallied to sacrifice, maybe not to the level of WWII, but we’ll never know because ‘we the people’ were never asked to be involved. For all of the media coverage, the mess that is Iraq has been pushed off the center stage by $3.00 gas. The distrust in government that was given a reprieve seems to have been redoubled, to the point that you almost have to wonder if the previous sentence is a coincidence or not. I just hope that next election we have two competent candidates to choose from instead of Tweedledee and Tweedledum as has become custom.
This of course moves right down the line, and we have folks like Mayor Nagin saying he should be re-elected because they have a lot of work to do and horses shouldn’t be changed midstream - like he’s done such a great job to this point.
We really need a viable third party candidate. Preferably one that isn’t nuts.
Yup. I’ll add that at a time when the oil companies are seriously gouging and are getting record profits, the “president’s” chief response has been (1) to say he’d investigate (like he said he’d investigate the Plame leak and the torture - oops, but those led right back to him!) and (2) to give oil companies tax relief!
I believe I actually add value to the economy - but I pay extra taxes. Meanwhile the oil companies get tax CREDITS just for their own industry.
The American auto industry is imploding, suppliers are going bankrupt left and right, and Bush is giving credits to the most profitable legal industry you can find…
I think a third party candidate would be terrific, but some e-mails I got this morning, blaming everything on East Coast liberals and Israel, prompt me to believe that we also need a far better educational system (some skepticism and understanding of science’s basic methods - not technology, but the methods that bring critical thinking) - and some more independent media even more. Otherwise the third party will just become as fat and corrupt as the other two. (I also suspect that Air America has been responsible for more of the anti-Bush sentiment than Bush himself, because it brought a non-Fox-News/Republican-talking-point bias to the airwaves, which had been the property of the far right and corrupt clerics. Just having an opposing point of view can help people to question basic assumptions or facts - and since the mainstream media has done NOTHING to show that any reporter has the ability to think or question, that’s good.)
I do believe we should do a full 100% reversal - namely vote out EVERY incumbent who is connected with ANY mess.
… then my increasingly serious solution can be considered.
I have noted that John Adams put his finger on the problem very early. Those who want to serve are generally unfit to do so. Hence I submit for your consideration:
1) Every citizen, every ten years starting on their 22nd birthday, is given a civil service test which measures critical thinking skills, reading and writing ability, general history and current affairs knowledge, and other key areas. This test is designed to pass at least 35% of Americans, with the content being roughly known to everyone so anyone can study for it as much as they like. There is also a lie detector and psychological component.
2) Citizens are then randomly selected from the passers for all political posts, with the possible exception being a president chosen by the Congress. They can be re-elected for a single two or four year term (their choice). They can choose to resign after two years, and can decline serving based on a number of clear criteria (new children, contractual obligations, medical, etc.). As an incentive to serve, salaries would be far higher than they are today - and they are already quite high in most cases - the money for this coming from not having any Federal or state election funds.
3) Exceptions would be made for felons (temporary holds depending on the nature of the crime), alcoholics, etc.
The advantages:
1) No more money wasted on campaigns!
2) Far less corruption - no career politicians
3) No more “choices of idiots” - Bush and Kerry would probably both have failed, for example, along with a select few other presidents and probably quite a few congressmen.
4) Politicians wouldn’t be so eager to please the fringes. Here in New Jersey, Gov’nor Codey showed what pure lame-duck status can do for morals - and Kean, Whitman, Corzine, and McGreevey showed what politics as usual can do, too. The unpleasant way.
5) Politicians would be more intelligent on the whole, and less egotistical.
6) Those who most want to be leaders are those who deserve it least (John Adams paraphrase) - this will greatly reduce the number of those people.
7) Votes will be decided not by who builds the voting machines or by who runs them, but by IBM computers (except of course for re-elections, and limiting these limits the corruption.)
Frankly, in our town, randomly selecting people WITHOUT a civil service test would be an improvement.
No big industry truly pays taxes. They just pass those costs onto the consumers of their product. It is way too easy to simply point at one component of the higher cost of fuel and say they are to blame, just as it is to say that the President is entirely at fault. The picture is far larger than that. Oil companies do not set the price for oil, that is driven by commodity markets which make the big news that “yesterday a barrel of oil topped the 70 dollar mark for the first time. Big news. Who pays for it and who uses it? Right now, on the market, China and India are grabbing as much oil as they can get, driving demand up, pushing supply down elsewhere. China is literally exploding with fuel using activity. My builder buddy has indicated that concrete prices have gone up dramatically because more than 60% of the product is being purchased by China, AT ANY PRICE. Same for oil. Analysts around the world have said that the current oil price will not hold, and it will fall rather quickly. Granted, it will probably be slow to show at your local gasoline stop, but it, if economists are to be believed, will come down. In the short term, if you want to use fuels, then you will have to pay for the pricing. There are long term solutions, but the enviro nuts, current government regulators, and political considerations literally block progress, keeping the status quo. With huge oil reserves under Utah, Colorado, New Mexico Alaska, as well as outside the borders of California and Florida, in the oceans, if we are not willing to turn off the oil spigots, and will not jump to alternative fuels, then we should be drilling in those areas, greatly reducing dependency on open commodity market priced crude. If a country such as Brazil determined that they would not be hostage to the forces of outside suppliers for fuel, then why can not this country, with all it’s technological gee whiz stuff make the same determination and get on with it. There is no other reason than money, and the lack of will of the people to make it happen. Want to cut your fuel bills for your vehicles by half? Build a distiller and make your own alcohol. Buy 5 gallons of gas and add 5 gallons of alcohol. Worried about the effects of alcohol on your fuel system? Don’t, just replace the parts listed by any auto supplier that might corrode. In your own relm then, you can operate as you wish. Many people did just that for their vehicles during World War II, and their cars were none the worse for it. Outside of your local area, if you are going to take a trip, well then you will have to pay the price for gasoline. Unless we can set up a marketing scheme to make alcohol available through private suppliers, place to place. Well, I digress here.
I guess I don’t comprehend the citizen testing as to what it would accomplish. Voter awareness perhaps. Making them informed voters who would vote on issues rather than sound bytes. Or are you advocating forced public service, such as having to be on a jury? Lie detectors don’t work either. A liar can lie to a lie detector, I have seen it, more than the lie detector companies will admit. A congressionally appointed President? NO, I don’t like that. That needs independent selection. Too much cozying up going on there already, despite the public display of phoney fights. However, it is quite obvious that something does need to be done with the current system. I don’t see much public satisfaction with a President rated at a 30% good job image, and Congress at a 23% good rating! Our system is good, it just needs a complete restoration, and fixes to rid it of the political shenanagins when finding people to serve in public elective offices.
Air America? Is that the Liberal Left radio program that can’t seem to get funding, commentators of note, or advertisers that will pay rates that would allow expansion of their air coverage? I have heard of it, but so far, haven’t found station locally that carries them. Yes, I would listen to it, if it were available, only to make sure that the concepts they were advocating made sense….. which sometimes is difficult to see because the facts manage to get mangled before they get to the air. However, all news is editorialized, which means it gets to be spun by whatever media presents it. Even a cub reporter can add their own bias to the presentation. Lengthy and unwieldy as it might seem, I would like to view a commentary corner where stories are presented from the right, left and in the middle, allowing me to digest all the issues presented, and rely on my own common senses to filter out the “spins.” Such as the Plame issue. While her name may have been “leaked” it can’t be a crime because she was not a CIA agent when it occurred. And now we find a Lt. Colonel in the Army being court martialed for a host of career ending charges from the Abu-Garev alledged torture thing in Iraq. All in the name of political correctness when the real crimes go uninvestigated, unreported, and never will come out.
The citizen testing is to find the people who can be drafted into government.
Air America - yes, that’s the “failed” liberal/left radio network. It’s doing far better than right wing sources want to admit though of course nowhere NEAR as well as all the right-wing networks.
I checked out moveon.org and George Soros. I found that he did not start it, does not contributye more than a minority of funding, and does not seem to control it, unless you believe right-wing propaganda sites that use terms like “George Soros and others contributed $15 million…” and then you find out that his share is less than one third of that amount - the only solid-year I could find was $200,000 in 2004. (I didn’t do a LONG search.)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Soros has an article on him. Apparently his father survived the Nazis and Soros himself has contributed greatly to the downfall of the Soviet Union and the liberation of Eastern Europe. Of course anyone right of George Bush Senior with any cash or political influence is described as a commie/socialist/pinko nutter by the Great Right-Wing Spin Machine, so I’m going to reserve judgement and just say that I don’t see him as being evil in his politics, though how he raises his money - him and all the other currency speculators - is what I’d call sleazy but legal, and probably not as harmful as investing bankers tend to be.
Congressionally appointed presidents would only work if the random selection was used.
I don’t see how Bush continues to get the 30% approval, though it could be because there are SO many suspect “news” sources that simply repeat his lies over and over, along with those of his friends, so that people actually believe Iraq was a big threat and the best way to counter it was with a big war and occupation (for example). Blaming everything on East Coast liberals also helps.
The people of the REAL Air America:
http://www.air-america.org/
Their motto:
“Anything, Anywhere, Anytime, Professionally.”
OOH-RAH!
Best as always,
Bob
Yes, well now the name is connected, which I failed to comprehend prior to this, and I will state that I feel resentment to a radio station utilizing a name that historically represents a whole lot of people whose bravery is being mocked by doing so.
Yes, that was in bad taste.
PS> Speaking of stains on the CIA, anyone notice the breaking scandals?
Let me elaborate a bit.
Which one is worse, outing an active CIA agent - and excusing it by saying she was on a desk job anyway (which wasn’t even true) - and ignoring the fact that an entire active covert operation was blown, or using the name of an abandoned CIA operation in bad taste?
Which is worse, appointing a party hack to lead the CIA and then firing him when the scandals get too hot, … you get the idea, I think.
It’s all quite sickening but I think this administration has been very good at keeping us focused on the less relevant - anthems in Spanish, happy holidays instead of Merry Christmas, the horrors of bilingualism, etc - while leaving the borders open, destroying the economy and value of the dollar for a good period of time by sending us into irrevocable debt, ALLOWING 9/11 to happen when they had damned good evidence if they had kept their ears open, refusing to send aid (or information) to several states affected by a major hurricane when they KNEW what would happen, condoning and encourage torture, paying other countries to torture kidnapped citizens and suspects, etc. I mean, really, the things people get mad about when all this is happening…making a big deal about whether kids in a single school say “under God” in the Pledge while the president goes around committing what would be called treason if Bill Clinton had done it?
Speaking of which, Gore DID win the election including in Florida if you believe the recount done by a number of independent newspapers. He only lost because the Supreme Court stopped the counting and chose a winner - months before inauguration, so there was no real issue of who would lead the country. Had the count gone on for another day, we would have elected Al Gore; the 9/11 hijackers would almost certainly have been stopped; and without 9/11 and a big war, Gore would have been replaced by someone else in 2004, probably not George W. Bush, maybe someone trustworthy and responsible.
And that’s the end of my political posting here.
Ok i am currently doing a project in my class about how hydrocarbons effected the gilded age…and i got down coal…but i need some info on how fuel effected the gilded age and im stuck.Can anyone please help me?
You could try starting with transportation; the Gilded Age largely concerned the nation’s industrial build-out which was greatly enhanced by railroads (both local and long distance) and much of the corruption centered around railraod building.