It’s time for Plymouth to return
America seems to be celebrating the return of Chrysler to American soil. Though the company has been slashed and burned by Daimler, suffering insults, taunts, mass layoffs, factory closings, firings of key people who dared to talk back, cash-robbing, and insane levels of cost-cutting, Chrysler has survived and is being supported by many people who have spent the last seven years insulting it.
Now the Chrysler brand can stretch its wings, and I, for one, think it should do it for real. That means there can’t be a Chrysler PT Cruiser, a Chrysler Sebring sedan with a four-cylinder or a 200 horsepower V6, a V6 powered Chrysler 300 with interior trim that belongs in a Honda Civic, or a base Chrysler Town & Country that is identical in just about every meaningful way to the Dodge Caravan.
Those vehicles can’t all move to Dodge, which is trying to take the big, bold Ram styling and Cummins-diesel-power reputation and transfer them to its cars, as well. Then Dodge would be a great big mess.
Instead, the Chrysler brand needs to stop measuring itself purely by sales volume and start considering profits and reputation. The advertising has moved in the right direction, but the product doesn’t support it. There’s no personal status in owning a Chrysler when the brand includes a large variety of strippers, including heavy cars with small engines. It would be like BMW selling the base Mini as a BMW, which you’ll notice it does not do. Or like Cadillac selling the Cimarron, the car that nearly destroyed Caddy’s reputation. Or like Mercury selling tarted-up Escorts, which finalized the death of Mercury’s once-elite reputation.
Now think about the China cars, and you will probably agree -
Plymouth needs to come back.
Plymouth is the value division, the Chevy, the Ford, the Toyota, the big amorphous blog division that doesn’t try to strike out on its own and be unique and clear about where it’s coming from. Plymouth is where you get your bread-and-butter cars, your family sedans, your commuter cars, your standard minivans. Plymouth is where Chrysler houses its inoffensive, practical vehicles. If they make a performance car, it’s a Road Runner or a Duster, not a Barracuda or GTX or ‘Cuda. (Look back and see which ones sold well. The Barracudas and ‘Cudas stagnated on dealer lots with the GTX. The Road Runners and Dusters sold like gangbusters.)
Plymouth will happily take on the China cars, and they’ll fit. Plymouth will take on the base model 300, letting Dodge sell Chargers without 2.7s, and Chrysler sell ONLY 300C versions of the 300. Plymouth will take the four-cylinder Sebrings - or ALL of the Sebrings other than the convertibles. Plymouth will take any Town & Country that isn’t fully loaded, and call it a Voyager.
There are even lots of pre-made customers for Plymouth, assuming they get some cars. I estimate the demand for Plymouth to be at least 80,000 vehicles per year without advertising (but with marketing). That’s not a bad return considering how hard Chrysler and Dodge are fighting for each customer with rebates and advertising. But it’s not totally about Plymouth sales. It’s about profits.
The financial problem with Chrysler now, bigger than retiree costs, or health care costs, or warrantee costs, is the cost of sales. Rebates are thousands of dollars per vehicle, and advertising and marketing are both expensive. Some people say adding Plymouth would only add to the costs, but I disagree. Scion and Mini did well with guerilla marketing, and I think Plymouth could ride on Cerberus’ buzz and guerilla marketing for a while too. Plymouth would also have a built in advantage of being able to use existing names and reputations for cars people liked and remember well - Voyager, Valiant, Duster. (I’m thinking Horizon for the China car if Hornet isn’t used.)
The big payoff, though, isn’t the added sales that Plymouth might bring. The big payoff is strengthening Dodge and Chrysler so they wouldn’t need huge rebates and huge advertising to draw people in. People will pay for status, and Chrysler has none right now. To bring Chrysler up, it needs Plymouth to fill in its low end. Dodge could accommodate Chrysler, but then it would lose its desired “Ram tough” positioning.
Toyota now has three brands; Honda and Nissan have two each; Ford has Ford, Mazda, and Lincoln in addition to numerous other domestic and foreign brands; GM has many. Even BMW has two brands in the US now, and when Mercedes brings Smart here, they’ll have two as well. As the world’s fourth largest automaker, Chrysler can certainly afford a third brand, especially one that will tell the world - and its past, discarded, insulted customers, ready to return at the right time - that their pride has returned. Walter Chrysler said that without Plymouth, there would be no Chrysler. It’s hard to say whether he was talking about financials or branding, but I believe it’s true.
Providing that the Plymouth starts out not as an additional model on a Chrysler Jeep or Dodge dealer’s inventory, but as IT’S OWN BRAND with IT’S OWN STORES. That would take some marketing and selling acumen, but there are enough dealers around, that would put the Plymouth first. No more BS about Plymouth being “just a cheap Dodge.” Dodge about copied every model that Plymouth ever made, and then still didn’t sell it as well. If it were not for Plymouth, there wouldn’t be anything of Chrysler today, period. Time to bring it back, and put it in the correct perspective, where Walter Chrysler knew it should be, and what he based his future upon. He should have clued Keller in before he left.
I agree with pretty much everything Dave and Curtis says in regards to Plymouth, its postioning, and its reason for being. I am also glad to see that both posters mentioned Walter P. Chrysler and his conviction that Plymouth made Chrysler Corporation back in the day. I fully agree and it is why I would like to see Plymouth make a comeback.
I’m not sure what the best way would be to bring Plymouth back, but I’ve heard everything from rebaging low priced Chryslers to bringing out new, totally innovative cars. I’m not for the rebadging idea because I’d want Plymouth to come out with a bang. It needs to set on its own path and pull the rest of Chrysler with it. I can understand the rebage idea would be popular with the accountants, however, and being that Cerberus is most likely in it for the money, I’m not sure they’d sign off on the idea of a new division.
I really think that if Plymouth could be introduced with a jaw dropping high mileage fuel efficient car that set the industry on its ear, the brand would have really no problem. Unfortunately, Chrysler is behind on hybrid and fuel efficiencies, so there isn’t anything ready to produce in the next few years. Make no mistake, however, that Plymouth needs to be a vehicle for the American people - rich or poor. It needs to be one that people will trust to get them home in a refined, efficient manner. This would mean sedans, subcompacts, mini-cars, minivans, etc… I’d even throw in the Barracuda and a nice roadster (Pronto Spyder perhaps?) as a way to spice up the brand.
I disagree with Dave on his use of the Roadrunner vs Barracuda, however. When I think Roadrunner, I think of heavy, big size cars. Usually, they are a little more expensive than compact cars so I’m not sure that would help Plymouth with its more affordable, efficient image. Maybe Dave is looking for the Roadrunner concept, which I think would fit fine with the Barracuda image. I just don’t see people buying a Monte Carlo sized coupe and wanting roll up windows and no air. You could sell a cheap Barracuda with a V-8 package as the ultimate sleeper.
I also feel that a smaller (Mustang sized) Barracuda would help differentiate itself from a larger/premium coupe being sold by Dodge as the Charger. I used to think that Dodge and Plymouth could have the same old combination of Barracuda/Challenger and Roadrunner/Charger, but in today’s environment, I just don’t see this working out too well. So, I figured that Plymouth could have the smaller, lighter, pony car (Barracuda), and Dodge could have the larger, more expensive Charger - much the way it should have been in the 60s.
All in all, we don’t know what Cerberus will allow Auburn Hills to do, nor do we even know if Auburn Hills even deems it necessary to bring out another division. Both posters above have presented rationales for bringing Plymouth back, which I fully support,however, Auburn Hills may not see it that way. If Chrysler sees no reason to bring out a small car brand, then that is their decision. However, if they do bring out a small, fuel efficient brand, I hope they decide to use the Plymouth name instead of inventing a new name. I just don’t think that would sit well. If you are going to do another brand in that segment, why not use something that worked? Why try and reinvent the wheel?
What is to happen to all of those dealers who bought out competitors and started selling Chrysler, Dodge and Jeep in one store? Can they be expected to add a fourth brand in the same showroom? Can you think of another company that has dealers selling more than two or three brands in one franchised store? Look, there was probably a good case to made against killing Plymouth, but the marketing barriers, not to mention the marketing costs and time, required to bring it back to life now would be a serious diversion of energy, money and effort which neither Chrysler Corporation, LLP nor its dealers can afford at this critical point in time.
AR2 mentionned a good point, althought Road Runner wasn’t too heavy first (1968-70) they became more heavier with the 1971-74 models. Also, how much Chrysler will have to paid Warner Bros for the trademark and royalties of the nameplate Road Runner? Duster and Barracuda might be a choice to reconsider, especially Barracuda, the buyers who didn’t buyed a Cuda and lefted them on the dealers lots yesterday might regret today if they knew how collectible they are today. I wonder if dusting off the old AMC nameplates Javelin and AMX might work as well if we couldn’t use Barracuda? As for the Barracuda, I could use the Demon concept-car platform and strech it to accept 4-passengers and a optionnal V6, to be different of the Challenger and also offering a alternative to the departure of the acura RSX/integra.
And as AR2 said, don’t invent a new name and if you still think of Plymouth from the K-car era and Horizon, DeSoto, Nash, Hudson, Frazer, Kaiser, AMC, Rambler, Willys, Valiant (briefly its own division in the US but stayed more longer on its own in Canada, the 1st-gen Canadian Barracudas was offered as “Valiant Barracuda”) Graham-Paige are available for a reviving ;-) (and come to think of it by exploring the Chrysler family tree, I could mention Maxwell, Chalmers, Columbia, Stoddard-Dayton and some others who was briefly together to form the United States Motor Company http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Motor_Company )
Personally I think rather then creating a new brand, Chrysler corp should be considering its future carefully and designing smaller more efficient cars like every other car maker. Right now their range is way too truck dependent. they need a hornet size car with different variant cos the price of petrol is going one way and that is up so people will be buying smaller and smaller cars in future.
Right now it should be a step at a time and having a smaller car will help establish dodge into various other markets like Europe, Asia and should also help dodge in america
I don’t think Plymouth should come back at all. Ford should be looking into ways to kill off Mercury. GM did it with Oldsmobile. There’s just too many nameplates out there as it is. There’s nothing wrong with having lower priced Chrysler models. I know how most people here hate the base model 300 but they are very important to dealer’s bottom lines. There are those buyers that just can’t afford a Limited or a C model so the base gives them almost the same look at a lot lower price.
As I proposed in the forums: Re-introduce Plymouth as the 4th brand and use 10 platforms, 1 new, the others retained or combined.
New sub-compact platform (could be designed here and produced in China):
Dodge Demon coupe and roadster, SRT-4
Chrysler LeBaron coupe and roadster (upscale version of the Demon, to replace the Crossfire)
Dodge Hornet, SRT-4
Plymouth Scamp (Dodge Hornet variant - think Mini Cooper fighter with PT-esque curves), maybe a convertible eventually
Small car platform:
Dodge Caliber, SRT-4
Jeep Patriot
Jeep Compass Rallye
Dodge Dart coupe and sedan (Neon replacement), SRT-4
Plymouth PT Cruiser, convertible, panel van (moved to Plymouth brand and Caliber platform, refreshed styling but still easily identifiable as a PT Cruiser)
Mid-sized car platform:
Dodge Avenger sedan, coupe, convertible, SRT-6
Chrysler Sebring sedan and convertible
Plymouth Reliant sedan and station wagon
Dodge Helix crossover, SRT-6 (JC-49)
Chrysler Pacifica crossover (JZ-49)
Plymouth Satellite crossover (PT’s big brother)
Large RWD car platform:
Dodge Charger sedan, SRT-8
Dodge Magnum station wagon, SRT-8
Chrysler 300C sedan, SRT-8
Chrysler 300C four-door convertible, SRT-8
Dodge Challenger coupe and convertible, SRT-8 (starting at around $25,000)
Plymouth ‘Cuda coupe and convertible (starting at around $18,000)
Chrysler Imperial
High-performance sports car platform:
Dodge Viper coupe and convertible, SRT-10
Chrysler Firepower coupe and convertible
Minivan platform:
Dodge Caravan (SWB “Sport” version, maybe throw a Hemi in there for fun ;-p)
Plymouth Voyager, Grand Voyager (SWB and LWB base level “people-movers”)
Chrysler Town & Country (LWB “luxury” minivan)
Compact truck platform:
Jeep Wrangler
Jeep Wrangler Unlimited
Jeep Wrangler JT
Small truck platform:
Jeep Liberty
Dodge Nitro, SRT-6
Mid-sized truck platform:
Dodge Dakota
Dodge Durango
Chrysler Aspen
Jeep Grand Cherokee, SRT-8
Large truck platform:
Dodge Ram, SRT-10
Jeep Commander (a true full-sized SUV)
Adding Plymouth could actually help the other brands define themselves more clearly. Jeep could keep being Jeep, Dodge could become more performance-oriented (notice almost every Dodge on this list has an SRT version), and Chrysler could become more “upscale,” while allowing Plymouth to take over the more affordable, family oriented vehicles. Give each a strong visual identity: Dodge continues to be more and more aggressive, Chrysler could be more refined, Plymouth could have a curvy line-up that includes the PT Cruiser and appeals to women and families, and Jeep could continue with its rugged, “Trail Rated” style. I agree that Plymouth should not be targeted at younger buyers; let Dodge and Jeep handle that.
Note that not every brand will have a version of a every car. Plymouth would have the only mid-sized station wagon (Reliant) but would not offer any SUVs or trucks (other than the Voyager and the Satelite crossover) or any full-sized sedans. Chrysler will not sell any cars smaller than a Sebring except for the Demon-based LeBaron (no PT Cruiser or Caliber variant), and will offer the only four-door convertible (300C). Jeep will offer the only full-sized SUV (new Commander) and the only compact pick-up (Wrangler JT), while Dodge will offer the only mid- or full-sized pick-ups (Dakota and Ram). Dodge will offer only the SWB minivan (in keeping with its “sporting” image) and Chrysler will offer only the LWB minivan (in keeping with its “luxury” image), while Plymouth will offer both (in keeping with its “family” image). Etc, etc.
Each brand could have its own “halo car”: Chrysler Imperial and Firepower, Dodge Viper, Plymouth ‘Cuda, and Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT-8.
James
I guess I should have saved my fingers for this thread rather than the one about the Three Headed Dog guarding the gates of hell.
In a nutshell - I’m not MoparNUT for nothing:
> IMPERIAL - Head to head with Cadillac
> CHRYSLER - Only slightly below Imperial in “attitude” but with the cachet of the 300’s of old and also with that of the new ones.
> DeSOTO - YOU HEARD ME! GM was out of it’s freakin’ mind when it killed the oldest name in American automobiles. And I have heard this from countless SALESMEN as well as customers. But in any case, DeSoto could have a special niche market where a VERY upscale MINIVAN starts with all kinds of goodies for the upscale soccer mom. Much as I hate it, put a bit of badge engineering into it from the nameplates below. In addition, this is where the DIESEL, like Cadillac’s FWD European Diesel which is now appearing, could now be featured. As I said, a NICHE MARKET.
> DODGE - The Buick/Pontiac/Mercury fighter. Upscale Plymouth but known for PERFORMANCE and loads of it. Yet has tons of family friendly goodies, too and MINIVANS.
> PLYMOUTH - Dry your tears as the marque comes back, from entry level to wild and hot performance. Even the minivan.
The only Plymouth I would builld in China is the Composite Sedan. Just before the long winter of the Mercedes nightmare the Chrysler Liberty Group (remember them?) developed a Composite Concept Vehicle or CCV. The car was developed for markets such as China and India. The body structure is made of four plastic parts. Its cost was to come in at half of that of a Neon. The prototype weighed 1200 lbs. and had a 790cc two cylinder motor. The irony is that the Chinese like big cars. The new Buick Park Avenue V8 is a good example. Mercedes is building a factory in India to save on shipping costs and meet demand for its luxury cars in that part of the World. Build the car for us. Federalizing the CCV would require doubling the engine size and adding 1000 more lbs. Use the Horizon name and its suspension design for the car. For drive train use a four cylinder version of the 3 cylinder Mitsubishi builds for the ‘08 Smart. The transmission would be just like the one Smart uses. I forget who builds it, but it is from an outside vendor. This new age Horizon could be the ultimate Eco car. Made out of recycled materials! Weighs less than a Honda Fit.
For the rest of the Plymouth line use the Neon/PT Cruiser platform. How about a “Legends” inspired club coupe? Plymouth was going in that direction before it got the axe. Steal the door design from the Dakota Club cab. Like the PT put practical before retro. When the novelty wears off the owners still has a great car.
It would be very stupid for chrysler to bring back Plymouth. At the moment it is simple - Dodge small cars and Chrysler big (jeeps are for jeeps). I bet GM or ford would love to kill buick, mercury, hummer, pontiac and who know what but unlike DCX couldn’t because they never had the money to shut factories and dealerships.
Personally i feel like Daimler should have split the company into three owners by keeping 26%, giving 25% back to the workers in exchange for halfing health care liabilities to $9 billion and given the remaining 49% to cerburus. That way Cerburus couldn’t strip and flip as they would need DCX or UAW to agree to get the required 51% of votes.
James’ 10 platforms are a good road map for Chrysler–Pylmouth or no Plymouth!
O.K. …… here’s the problem with bring back Plymouth as the “low price brand” that spot is already taken by Dodge. Ford & Chevy sells pickup trucks… they are their company’s low price brand, the car buying public perceive ( rightly or wrongly) the if you sell pickups this brand is the lowest man on the totem pole. Chrysler tried to change this back in the 70’s by selling trucks with a Plymouth name plate……it just didn’t sell. Now if the “Plymouth” brand were to be marketed like Saturn….. sold retail…..not by “Dealers” this might have some legs. As for “Desoto” salesmen will say anything…..still laughing at that one.
Gotta agree with that assessment. They need to market Plymouth like Toyota did with the Scion brand. Plus, I think that DeSoto should remain dead. Sad to say, but that is where it belongs.
DeSoto has been gone far too long to revive. Those that remember it (and miss it) are a very limited in number. Plymouth, on the other hand, does have an audience. I agree that his should be limited to the economy division of Chrysler as per Walter P’s original intent. I would market it as a Saturn with limited options and a fixed price. No dealing/no haggeling. Saturn sells a lot of cars this way. Keep the price consistently low but make it final. To not use the most famous name in muscle cars, Barracuda, would be a mistake. The Challenger platform already exists and it would not take much to make a ‘Cuda version. Again, Road Runner has been gone too long and many people don’t know it’s history or what it was. The Road Runner is not a popular cartoon with kids today so the marketing appeal would be limited. Almost everyone has heard of the Barracuda though. Using the new Challenger platform to reintroduce Plymouth would be a marketing triumph.
Lots of good ideas here, folks. I’m liking what I read. Do you think that anyone at Cerberus or Chrysler reads these? I hope so. I agree about the Desoto nameplate; it’s been gone too long to revive successfully, but they definitely need to bring back Plymouth. It was and always has been Chrysler’s value leader, since the day of it’s introduction, as well as being one of it’s top sellers. No company can afford to give away those sales in today’s marketplace. Start small, and grow the brand back. No large vehicles, period, just affordable, reliable, fuel efficient vehicles with some attitude, a la PT Cruiser. For you Desoto fans, myself included, why not use the name on a lower priced Chrysler, and bring back the Imperial as the top end model. This would give Chrysler a full model range in the mid to upper mid price point. Dump the low end 300 and the non-convertible Sebrings, along with the minivans. No other premium nameplate has a minivan, Chrysler shouldn’t either. Better yet, dump the Sebring, and introduce a redesigned 300 (not C) as a Desoto, with a coupe and convertible. That way all Chryslers would share the same platform, only with different wheelbase and engine combinations. Simplifies the whole brand, yet gives the appearance of 3 to 4 different models. Skinny down Dodge, too many models and platforms. Lose the Magnum, (Town and Country, anyone?),expand the Charger line-up, (Coupe and Convertible), keep the Avenger, add the coupe and convert here from the Sebring. Keep the Caliber , but fix it, and share it with Plymouth, along with the minivans, SWB and LWB. Plymouth gets the PT exclusively,
and maybe the Pronto or Razor as a halo car, along with the ex-Chrysler Sebring sedans. AND PLEASE SOMEONE, bring back the pillarless coupe, a la Mercedes. Marketers say coupes don’t sell, B.S.! I’d buy one in a minute if they still made them, NOT 2 door sedans called coupes. I predict the new Sebring hardtop will sell well for exactly that reason, no damn pillar hanging over your shopulder and impeding access to the rear seat.
Lots of good ideas here, folks. I’m liking what I read. Do you think that anyone at Cerberus or Chrysler reads these? I hope so. I agree about the Desoto nameplate; it’s been gone too long to revive successfully, but they definitely need to bring back Plymouth. It was and always has been Chrysler’s value leader, since the day of it’s introduction, as well as being one of it’s top sellers. No company can afford to give away those sales in today’s marketplace. Start small, and grow the brand back. No large vehicles, period, just affordable, reliable, fuel efficient vehicles with some attitude, a la PT Cruiser. For you Desoto fans, myself included, why not use the name on a lower priced Chrysler, and bring back the Imperial as the top end model. This would give Chrysler a full model range in the mid to upper mid price point. Dump the low end 300 and the non-convertible Sebrings, along with the minivans. No other premium nameplate has a minivan, Chrysler shouldn’t either. Better yet, dump the Sebring, and introduce a redesigned 300 (not C) as a Desoto, with a coupe and convertible. That way all Chryslers would share the same platform, only with different wheelbase and engine combinations. Simplifies the whole brand, yet gives the appearance of 3 to 4 different models. Skinny down Dodge, too many models and platforms. Lose the Magnum, (Town and Country, anyone?),expand the Charger line-up, (Coupe and Convertible), keep the Avenger, add the coupe and convert here from the Sebring. Keep the Caliber , but fix it, and share it with Plymouth, along with the minivans, SWB and LWB. Plymouth gets the PT exclusively,
and maybe the Pronto or Razor as a halo car, along with the ex-Chrysler Sebring sedans. AND PLEASE SOMEONE, bring back the pillarless coupe, a la Mercedes. Marketers say coupes don’t sell, B.S.! I’d buy one in a minute if they still made them, NOT 2 door sedans called coupes. I predict the new Sebring hardtop will sell well for exactly that reason, no damn pillar hanging over your shoulder and impeding access to the rear seat.
Sorry, hit the submit button twice.
Here’s what I see that needs to happen:
First off, no Plymouth or Desoto. Doesn’t make sense to bring back old nameplates that don’t mean much to the younger generations. Also definitely NO IMPERIAL. The thing looks terrible and Chrysler does not need to play in the 50K price range.
CHRYSLER: Drop PT Cruiser (at least the name) and re-engineer the vehicle along a modified version of the Caliber/Patriot platform. It must get lighter in weight and better fuel economy. Also offer a diesel version since that seems to be the coming thing. They also need to develop a small four door sedan that they will share with Dodge. 300: Keep the 300 model lineup as is except make the optional “Great American Package” from last year standard equipment on the base model (aluminum wheels). No 300C convertible. SEBRING: Fix the styling on Sebring sedan to make it look less bubbly and get rid of that stupid ribbed hood. No 2 door Sebrings. Since the Convertible is brand new there’s not much they can do to it right now but for the next model they need to get rid of that high beltline look it has now. It looks like it’s rear end it sticking way up in the air. MINIVANS: Again since the 2008’s are brand new not much can happen right away. But I would try and get away from the boxey look. Right now they look just like GM’s old minivans at first glance. I would also try to work diesels into minivans. Also maybe look at bringing back SWB minivans. PACIFICA: Pacifica just needs a little exterior reworking because it finally has a nice package driveline wise. ASPEN: Drop it. FIREPOWER: I think this deserves another look if you can keep the price in the mid 40’s or lower, it just might work. However, it definitely has to be offered with a 6 speed manual and maybe even a convertible after a year or so.
DODGE: Rework Caliber as discussed above. AVENGER: Soften the Avenger’s looks a little bit and make it more aerodynamic. MANGUM: Drop it. It should have never been built (dealers warned Dodge about this before it ever came out). CHARGER: Offer the SXT model to look just like an R/T (body colored mirrors, chrome aluminum wheels) but at about the 25 or 26K price range. Next generation Charger needs to get back to the prototype from a few years ago (this might not be possible due to sharing the platform with 300). No Charger 2 door or convertible. DEMON: Good idea that could work but that crosshair grille needs to shrink down quite a bit. Keep the price down to where it’s affordable but have a higher performance version as well. MINIVANS: Same as Chrysler. CHALLENGER: You’re going to have to come up with a 6 cylinder base model like it or not. It’s just a matter if they can get the price low enough to compete with Mustang. I think the convertible is coming in 2010 or so. Make all models available with 6 speed manuals.
JEEP: Kill the Compass (should have never been built). PATRIOT: Keep as is except make fuel mileage improvements. WRANGLER: Don’t mess with a good thing right now. Develop the Scrambler. It could be a good seller. Maybe look into offering diesels in Wranglers also. LIBERTY: Bring back the diesel option as soon as possible, it will definitely work as proved in the previous models. This new folding top could be trouble if it starts giving trouble with wind noise and water leaks. COMMANDER: Drop it. It’s not a true 7 seater and is not that much larger than the Grand Cherokee. GRAND CHEROKEE: The diesel option is fantastic. Not much I would change to the lineup except dropping the SRT version. GLADIATOR: I think this needs to be built. Public response to it was very good.
DODGE TRUCKS: DAKOTA: Have to reduce the price. You shouldn’t see Dakota’s over 30K. Too early to say what the new front end is going to do. Develop a 4 cylinder diesel option (maybe from the Liberty) or even the 3.0 diesel from the Grand Cherokee but that might drive the price too high. NITRO: Offer a diesel from the Liberty. HALF TON (1500): Shrink that huge grille down a bit. Definitely offer diesels because they could be huge sellers. Have to come up with a different 6 cylinder because the 3.7 doesn’t cut it. Maybe the 4.0 could be switched to a RWD layout. DURANGO: The hybrid is probably a good idea but I might also consider a diesel option. Also needs 6 cylinder changed to whatever goes in 1500 series trucks. M80: I would give this another look also. A lower priced small truck that looks good would be a great idea with other trucks now moving up in size (Tacoma, Frontier, Etc.)
SRT’S: Drop the Grand Cherokee. Offer 6 speed manual transmission as standard equipment with automatics optional.
ACROSS THE BOARD: All interiors must be reworked AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. Get rid of the cheap metal looking plastic and hard seats. Offer the 7/70 powertrain warranty again. Drop all 4 speed automatics. I would say offer more manual transmissions but I just don’t think they would sell enough in mid sized cars and larger cars to make it economically feasible. They have to fix the New World 4 cylinders. They are just too loud under acceleration. All vehicles must be engineered to be quiet at road speeds and at idle. If you’ve ever had a Honda, Toyota, Nissan come by you in a parking lot, you can barely hear them running.
HELLO ALLPARIAN FRIENDS:
I agree that Chrysler Should get an Eco-Friendly Line, perhaps not as small as the Smart, but pretty much, i would encourage Cerberus Gang to look again at the concept cars that got the (NIET NIET NIET) by Daimler, like the Pronto, the PT cruiser Styling its not dead yet, and with a smaller car with a 1.6 or 1.8 4 cyl light weight named Pronto, and Rebrand the PT as Plymouth, would work, i know we all loved the Plymouth´s with HEMI´S, driven by the Petty´s, but in this new century performance is second to Budget, Just picture it in your mind, forget if its called plymouth or not, a car the size of the Yaris with PT convenience features, like the removable back seats, or the temporary table, with cool looks, fancy gadgetry for young people(not the power windows and locks) gadjetry like 120 volt outlet for the laptop or like 4 power outlets for the cellphones of the driver´s friends, GOOD SOUND, GOOD LOOKING WHEELS, TWO TONE INTERIORS, FUTURISTIC INTERIOR DESIGN LIKE THE ONE USED AT THE CONCEPTS, Led dashboard lighting, maybe an MTV endorsment, or even a Recording company endorsment like how the B52´s said in the late 80’s (Hop in my Chrysler that´s as big as a whale and it´s about to set sail, wooooo) the Fantastic 4 its “OK” but i don´t think it would help sell Avenger´s.
Re-Start Plymouth like it was a new brand, start from a small entry level car to appeal the young buyers, then biff it up a little bit with more power and cooler looks and equipment, but keep the base model, and build from there a new model every year or two going upscale and then using existing platforms from other brands but hide it well like the Sebring/Avenger that share no sheet metal or interior part so its hard to tell it´s the same platform.
Best Regards
If that Idea its not good enough, other option would be making a Halo Car first like a renewed updated PROWLER, yes, just build a concept, but sell millions of posters, t-shirts, notebooks, endorse gatherings of existing prowler clubs, with showings of the new “concept prowler”, a few months later buildit, sell a few houndreds, and start building from there small cars with HOT ROD looks, but greate EPA ratings.
Plymouth instead of value would become the HELO BRAND for young new buyers.
You guys have some very good Ideas here on this forum I wished we worked/owned for chrysler!!!
I was sad when daimler axe the plymouth name I owned a 1970 340 cuda and a 1971 plymouth roadrunner 440 two sweet rides I also owned an 1985 voyager 88 sundance 93 grand voyager mopar all my life 2003 1500 truck .
They were the bread and butter econo fun line as far as new concepts you hit on some nice ones .I think their weakness has been tranny troubles..
Why cant they go back and redesign a 727 but scaled down with an overdrive for their whole fleet from a i4 to a v8 it would solve a lot of relability issues . I think they should instead of dual overhead cams for their 4 use a single cam hemi design still good power less parts simpler…… barrow from truck 5.7 hemi head .
Keep their v8hemi for truck Also make a small diesel for encono omni like car maybe 50mpg ?? Also make a small poorsmans plymouth like a duster to compete with the mustang for around 18k you cant tell me it cant be done the problem with chrysler is the have always been more costly model per model compred to gm an ford. make more rear wheel platform cars again …….!
I would base all of my engines off of three design platforms to save costs utilizing the 5.7 cut 4 cylinders off you got a 4cylinder pusrod hemi same head for all take hemi chop back two cylinders off then you have a hemi v6 its very cost effective and the advantage would be less parts to stock in inventory the v6 hemi heads would be the only item that woul have to be added
So What do you think ??
Samrock,
I like your ideas. I think the new 62TE transmission will solve alot of the tranny reliability issues. It should be excellent. Hopefully, it will be used across the board in passenger cars. And the new Phoenix engines will result in much more commonality, and eventually help costs, going from four V-6 families down to one. In theory, basing four and six cylinder engines on the 5.7 would work, but economy and emissions concerns weigh against it: multivalve, multicam technology is all but essential in meeting those targets. And many customers have come to expect overhead cams.
I am skeptical about the China cars. The cars that made many of us Mopar fans (Valiant / Duster, K, Omni / Horizon) were rugged, locally made, and affordable. I would love to see Chrysler do the small cars locally, and achieve top marks in quality. The Neon / PT platform is proven. I don’t think the customers would mind the older components underneath the skin: it would lower costs and increase quality. Chrysler desparately needs to change the public’s perception on quality. Ford is now leading Toyota in JD Power with five top models in initial quality. Chrysler must do the same–and more.
The bottom line is not the bottom line if quality glitches result from bean-counted Chinese components: Chrysler doesn’t have time to repeat the same mistakes as it made with pinching pennies on the Neon head gaskets. Flaws in the new small cars will turn another generation away from Chrysler cars.
The China cars will be average cars at best. The new small cars need to be so good that people will WANT to buy them: first, there needs to be a small Plymouth sedan so well designed that people will say, “Who makes this?” and trade much more expensive cars for it. Chrysler can indeed recreate the triumphs of the past: 1960 Valiant, the 1981 Reliant, Neon (but without the problems of the latter). If anyone can do it, Chrysler can. Second, build the Dodge Hornet–it could very well become the American Mini (a cool little car that can command a premium price and make a profit. Scion’s redesigns are uncool so Chrysler can tap that market with Hornet). PT is already a success: build on the achievement like BMW has done with the 07 Mini. Like the original Valiant, always be prepared to take a step ahead with technology: beat Honda and Toyota to the punch by offering small, direct injected turbo engines.
Do what Chrysler used to do: 1. over engineer and 2. show the public how good the cars are in flat-out endurance runs, and coast-to-coast fuel economy runs. Succesful small cars will be the equivalent of the first Plymouths, the building block of Chrysler in the 21st century. Customers will respond to quality and value. Regardless of where they are sourced, the small cars should get a 150,000 mile warranty. If Plymouth is recreated, the whole brand should get such a warranty.
Chrysler has great people; as a matter of fact, Cerberus has just hired Tom Gale. It may not be what we expect, but I know Chrysler will have a good plan.
Thanks Jeremy for your great Ideas and sharing some of yours but for simplicity reasons I still could prove that utilizing the 5.7 pushrod hemi and basing all them I4 to v8 and still making emissions and fuel economy possible
NO1 using the hemi would require fewer moving parts…Use the new viper variable cam technology a cam in a cam along with the new electronc fuel management system.
These engines would not only perform but would meet or exceed twin cams with fewer parts as well as not having to use big old long timing chains and extra cams..less to break the elegance in a design is simplicity and that is a strength….
Maybe they could with their fuel managent sytems turn off 2 or 3 cylinders at cruising just like the big v8 hemi think about the cost savings it would work I am very sure I have been a mechanic for 28 years always thinking!!!!!!!!! The pushrod motor is not dead !!! It just been perfected IT works well
The 2008 Dodge Viper uses Mechadyne’s concentric camshaft assembly to help boost power output to 600 Bhp
I agree that we should bring back plymouth from the dead. And when it does come back then I think that it should become not a company that sells a bunch of cars but it should sell several cars. Particulary {sorry I am only 14} the old muscle cars like the barracuda, duster or roadrunner. People out there are dying to own one of these awsome muscle cars. And the hemi should actually look like a hemi. Not an engine with a plastic cover on the top. They should bring back the old 426 hemis and stuff like that. And since plymouth would not and has not been a threat to dodge or chrysler or jeep then why not make only old muscle cars? Everyone misses them and we all now it. And besides, who cares about fuel effecient? I like the old gas guzzling cars. And if you need an everyday car than dont go buying a plymouth if it comes back.
I believe that the time is perfect to bring back Plymouth. Unfortunately, Daimler demonized, raped, and nearly destroyed Chrysler for their benefit; they needed a talented company to destroy to help themselves become financially viable.
They were the hottest car company in the ’90s for a really good reason…untold talent and a car guy (Bob Lutz) that cared about the company. I think that if they analyzed today’s market, brought back their immense styling talent, and really focused on quality, they would be the company to beat. This is what I think each division should do:
CHRYSLER: Focus on quality and superb luxury; they need to make their name synonymous with luxury once again. Build the hot concept cars of recent years - the arguably best styled supercar ever, the ME-412, and the Firepower. Keep the 300C (drop the base version) but bring out a coupe and convertible version, move the Town & Country to a crossover platform, give it dramatic, elegant styling, enlarge the PT Cruiser (it was always too small), and completely redesign the Sebring. It needs to become more of a BMW fighter than a Camry fighter.
DODGE: Commit to making high performance cars ONLY. Bring on the Challenger, expand the Charger to a 2 door and convertible offering, redesign the Avenger (bad front end), and the Caliber should be an SRT offering only; this model also needs redesigned. The Grand Caravan is too strong of a seller to discontinue, but it should be given a little more dramatic styling to deemphasize its minivan heritage.
PLYMOUTH: This should be the value division! Using the 300 / Charger platform would be fine for a large model, but it should have its own unique styling; absolutely no badge engineering. It should be reasonably priced to the point that someone could spend the cash difference in customizing it in the aftermarket. A base minivan (Voyager) should return; this would be your Odyssey / Sienna competitor. The Hornet should be badged as a Plymouth; they also need their own version of the Sebring/Avenger platform. They need to have what Dodge has (except for the Viper) but the vehicles should look 100% different. This divison would be your ‘Scion’ competitor.
JEEP: Become more of a ‘HUMMER’ competitor. The Compass is a complete joke; it looks like a joke and is destroying whatever reputation Jeep had left. The Patriot is fine, as is the Grand Cherokee (although in bad need of a redesign) and the Commander needs to either be enlarged and feature streamlined styling or be dropped. The TrailHawk concept is nicely done and should be added to the lineup.
SUMMARY: If companies like Hyundai and Kia can make significant inroads with market share and reputation, even though they make the ugliest cars and SUVs found in this country, then Chrysler should be able to easily rebuild and thrive, especially if they utilize the talent they had to regain the momentum they had built in the 90s. I only hope that CERBERUS does not plan to ’strip and flip’ the company, selling to a company in India or China, which would completely destroy this American icon, no matter how you look at it. All they need is very clever marketing, high quality, and a return to having the best styled cars made on the planet.
Like what some of the others have said I don’t think that DeSoto should be brought back (Imperial should though). But I have a very different opinion on what should be done with the “new” Chrysler Corporation. Bring back Plymouth but also bring back Eagle as a mid-priced vehicle (like Olds was with GM) (Remember them?, Vision,Talon,etc.)and for my brightest idea yet bring out a nicer truck than Dodge with a name like I don’t know, Fargo? for the upscale brand dealers to sell. I like the way that Chrysler was in the ’90s the best because I was growing up then and really liked cars like the LH’s,Neon’s,and P-Bodies,and not to mention the Minivans (we had a ‘89 Light Blue Grand Voyager SE that we drove the wheels off of and got rid of in 2000). Here’s the way I would make the lineup work.
IMPERIAL (High Priced like Cadillac, independent sales unit can be grouped with other divisions if necessary)
I would make a ultra-nice long/short wheelbase version of the 300. A HEMI is a must in the long wheelbase but a Phoenix V6 should do in the “shory”.
A 300 coupe convertible (Challenger LX platform). Should have a HEMI.
Make a smaller totally new convertible (like the Chrysler/Maserati hybrid the TC, I know it was a Chrysler but it was much nicer). It should have a 4-cyl or a Phoenix V6.
CHRYSLER (Mid-High priced like Buick)
Consolidate Chrysler-Plymouth into one sales unit so that Plymouth can be the low priced alternative. (Like above can be grouped with other divisions).
Get rid of the 300 nameplate off of sedans. Put it on a nicer version of a Challenger (and call it 300N,weren’t they all coupes in the olden days anyway?). Again the HEMI is a must!!!
Call the 300 sedans New Yorker and offer Phoenix V6’s only.
Pass the Sebring Sedan to Plymouth and let them call it the Acclaim (Maybe with a Valiant Luxury trim package), Keep the Convertible and return the coupe on another totally new platform. (make them a 4 or a Phoenix V6)
Get rid of the Pacifica & Crossfire
Make the PT Cruiser a Plymouth (rename it Pronto).
EAGLE (Mid-priced like Olds was). (Consolidate Jeep-Eagle into one sales unit like the olden days, like above can be grouped with other divisions)
Make a LX called Vision with a Premier Luxury trim package that is just a little bit toned down from a 300/New Yorker but more refined than a Charger. No HEMI here.
Make a Talon off of the sebring coupe platform
Make a Summit Sedan,Coupe & Wagon with only a 4-cyl on that same platform with a Medallion Luxury trim package.
FARGO TRUCKS (Just like Dodge’s but nicer appointed for Chrysler-Plymouth,Imperial,and Jeep-Eagle dealers,independent division though).
Totally new platform for big vans. Will be called H-Vans (Ford and Chevy have already used or are using C,E,F,G,K prefixes and Dodge will get B prefixes again like they used to have for it’s version)
Version of the Ram Truck
Version of the Dakota
Throw in a Dodge Power Wagon concept inspired full-size truck
DODGE (Performance oriented like Pontiac, Low-Mid price) (Independent division as always)
Drop the Charger name and HEMI on sedans, as well as the Daytona,Plum Crazy,and Super Bee Editions on Sedans (Save those for the coupe).
make a LX Platform Charger coupe with a HEMI
Keep the Magnum
not change anything else
PLYMOUTH (Performance/Value oriented like Chevy)
LX Platform Barricuda,Roadrunner,and Superbird
Short wheelbase Minivans
Sebring sedan named Acclaim
Sebring,Talon,and Summit coupe called Sundance.
A Caliber has to be in there somewhere.
JEEP
Get rid of the ugly Compass
Rename the Patriot, Cherokee with a Patriot trim package.
Not add the gladiator
Keep everything else
I sure hope that I didn’t bore you to death!!!! but now we are at the most brands that Chrysler has had in it’s history in the US at one time, 7!!! (I really don’t know about the rest of the world). They used to have 5 at one time,or actually two times (we all know that, right?).
Hear is how I see a revitalized Chrysler Corp.
Imperial: (luxury) a super deluxe version of Chrysler with a longer wheelbase.
Chrysler: (prestige) Top of the line 300, mid level LaBaron, and lower price Newport
Dodge: (performance) Revamp four door charger and call it Polaris. Come out with two a door Charger. Restyle the PC Cruiser to a non retro design and call it Dart. And minivan. for true performance, let’s not forget the Viper.
Mopar Truck. (utility) Eliminate the Dodge Ram name. Start a new truck division called Mopar Truck. This includes pick-ups, vans and SUV’s. And like GM and their GMC trucks. Mopar trucks can be ordered through any Chrysler Corp. Dealer
Plymouth. (economy/ performance) Build a line of cars based on the 1970 Duster/ Valiant/ Scamp platform. Complete with RWD, front torsion bars and rear leaf springs. This platform is inexpensive to build. And can be used for an entire line from the new Duster, Barracuda, GTX/ Road runner. As well a 2 and 4 door family cars and a 5 door (oow that dreaded word) station-wagon called Satellite. With inline 4’s a V-6 or small V-8. Build a wider array of vehicles based on the PC Cruiser with a 4 cyl. Diesel option.