Dark but necessary times for Mopar fans
One day out from release of the official plans, there have been enough leaks to understand that the remains of Chrysler Corporation will not be what Mopar fans want them to be.
[See the actual plan | See our response to the plan so far]
Over nine years, Daimler-Benz decimated the ranks of Chrysler engineers. Some left due to their refusal to say “yes” to anything that originated in Germany; others because of various early retirement schemes; others due to layoffs; and others were poached by other automakers, including Toyota, largely because morale at Chrysler sank after 1999 and stayed low until a very brief period between the Cerberus buy and the Nardelli appointment.
After Daimler, of course, Cerberus came in. There was joy and celebration everywhere. Then Bob Nardelli, whom Home Depot paid tens of millions to get rid of, was appointed, and a dark shadow fell over the hearts of most Mopar folk. Sure enough, there was another round of engineering cutbacks. The company had millions for NASCAR, but apparently not enough to continue development of actual production cars.
As a side note, I tried to think the best of Bob Nardelli, but both the Fiat people and the Obama auto task force found that what people thought of him was largely true. He continued the hollowing-out of Chrysler, with no apparent long term plan other than stripping costs and flipping. Nardelli can take his place next to Bob Eaton in Chrysler’s pantheon of corporate killers.
Fiat came in and was impressed by what they saw, but they also had some very hard choices to make. I’m sure they’d rather keep LX development in the United States, but from what I understand, that’s just not in the cards. The LX was ready to go — if one accepted Daimler’s terms. Daimler has apparently decided it doesn’t need to supply the parts it was contracted to supply — so much for Dieter Zetsche’s love of Chrysler. We read him wrong, too. You read it here first. I was wrong about Dieter.
So now Fiat engineers will apparently go over the LX and redesign it to be produced more cheaply, and without Daimler parts. Well, it’s hard to argue with the second part. The first part might get us into some trouble. But emotionally, this is the hardest blow to take. It reduces Chrysler to a truckmaker. The Chrysler lineup, in terms of domestically engineered vehicles, will now be Jeep Liberty, Jeep Grand Cherokee/Dodge Durango, Dodge Ram, and Chrysler Town & Country. Four vehicles groups. That’s a sad end for what was once the world’s engineering leader, the country’s go-to guys during World War II, and the most profitable, successful automaker in the mid-1990s.
So where do we go from here?
Jeep will be Jeep if it’s not too diluted.
The lovely Chrysler 200C that I’ve been slobbering over is probably dead. We don’t know, it hasn’t been mentioned. But I’m not counting on it surviving. Its place in the production scheme will be taken over by the Alfa and Lancia and possibly Maserati versions.
Chrysler itself will compete with Alfa Romeo and Lancia versions of the same cars, and in North America alone. I would suspect that all three will be tossed into the market and whichever comes out on top will survive. Maybe Lancia will be “old Chrysler” to Chrysler’s Plymouth — the same cars with more luxury trim. Maybe not. But either Alfa or Chrysler will probably eventually be junked in North America depending on sales. In a way it doesn’t matter because they will all be Fiat designs anyway, unless Fiat starts building up local engineering staff to translate Eurodesigns into American designs.
Dodge will survive for a time on Charger and Challenger. Maybe Dodge will get some cars instead of or in addition to Chrysler, but I suspect each car will have one American brand and one or two Italian brands. Dodge Ram will grow with or without Cummins.
That’s apparently the future. Chrysler may or may not survive. Fiat may or may not put more resources in; Fiat may or may not keep the old names. In the best future, Fiat would temporarily handle engineering while recruiting a new engineering staff in the US to build next generation cars tapping Fiat technologies and platforms. In the worst future, the remnants of Chrysler will be empty brands slapped onto Italian cars, along with a light-truck-and-SUV-and-minivan group — essentially, the old JTE (Jeep-Truck Engineering) plus minivans. And with minivans getting smaller and lighter, except at Chrysler, which dropped its short wheelbase model at JUST the wrong time (because Daimler apparently only looked at costs, not revenues), the minivans might not last too long, either. Especially if Fiat buys over 50% of Chrysler — then the “buy American” argument won’t even work.
Sergio Marchionne, for all his positive attributes, is no less arrogant than any of Chrysler’s other recent leaders, and that is bad because it will close his eyes to the past, to lessons learned, and to local market (and loyal Mopar buyers’) preferences. His workaholic ways won’t help either – while he might be able to work under those conditions, I don’t think his leadership team will necessarily be making the best decisions. A lot of good people may lose their jobs, willingly or not, because they don’t want to work for someone with that “leadership style” – or with those demands. I’m also not crazy about the levels of responsibility he demands – running two brands and a functional area, for example.
There is some hope but frankly, I don’t think these will be fun times for Mopar fans.
(Thanks to Jalopnik for some perspective.)
Addendum: it appears that things will not be so bad:
Expansion of Chrsler engineering workforce
Chrysler to handle large displacement and hybrid engines for Fiat worldwide
Journey, Caravan, Avenger: new engine, new interiors, exterior refreshing
2014: all new Grand Caravan
New C-sedan, B-hatch, D-car, 7-passenger crossover
Repackaging around lifestyles rather than … whatever they were using before
Possibly, new Viper for 2013/2014
Quality improvements will continue and extend to dealer service
WRONG! Wrong! You are so wrong!
signed me…lashing out and probably crying.
I hope I AM wrong.
I winced reading Dave’s treatise.
Although; knowing Chrysler’s history: ‘it ain’t over till the fat lady sings’———-and, she is merely warming up.
Chrysler needs a Steve Jobs (CEO of Apple, Inc) to come in and fix things like Steve did with Apple. He took a company that was just about dead and is now one of the top consumer electronics companies in the world with over $32 Billion in cash in the bank with no debt and has skyrocketing sales, even in a harsh economy. They need something to take a step back, stop and assess what the heck is going on, then develop a useful plan to fix things. They need to get a resurgence of what Chrysler really is. Get its core audience looking forward to something other than just another stupid large SUV with a tupperware interior in it, or a sedan with a big gas guzzling V8 in it. Don’t get me wrong there, I absolutely love the Challenger and it DOES give Chrysler’s core fans something to talk about. Maybe this is what this Sergio guy is going to do….perhaps not. What they don’t need, is another destructive relationship between Chrysler and Fiat. That would be the death of Chrysler.
Unfortunately, they let the company sink far too long. Its running off borrowed money and I’m sure they’re still bleeding money (our money) with maybe no positive outcome for us. I think they need to work quickly, but accurately to get some cars that Americans will buy and want to keep. I’m just not so sure if Americans will buy Fiat cars. Maybe they will until Chrysler can get some of its own cars designed and engineered to the quality they should be.
I have been a Chrylser product fan going back to a 69 superbee and a 70 Challanger SE RT. I have owned their vans (have one again, their trucks (Dakota) and a few jeeps. I have always sttod by Chrysler believing that thier engineering was tops. Always getting angry at the auto writers who seemed to be sucking the tailpipes of way too may Japaneese imports and never seeming capable of a good word about domestics.
What will happen tomorrow will happen, Fiat has been a great company with some good cars – minus tha fact that a salt shaker would rust them – I had a great time driving my old X19 and always wished for that type of handling and balance in a domestic.
So let us wait and see – but I for sure am about to buy yet another Chrysler product praying that it does not become a Desoto…….
David, I hope your wrong I too love Chrysler and can’t bear to see it struggle. I’m hoping Sergio does listen to us, the loyal Mopar guys. Ican’t believe he will let the 200 die. Chrysler just needs a chance and to stop letting thieves like Daimler steal the money and morons like Eaton and
the executioner Nardelli run it into the ground.
Good analysis. I’m still hoping for some better news tomorrow, still hoping Fiat will not actually be taking some of these decisions (such as dropping Caravan) but the die appears to be cast.
When I drive my Challenger, people wave, smile, shout “that’s a nice car.” I’ve never seen anything like it. I’ve not met anyone yet that doesn’t like it–it always elicits a smile or approving comment. There is so much potential for Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep to build other cars that draw people like that–NEW 200C, 300, ETC. I wonder if the folks leading Chrysler have driven one, or driven a Ram or Caravan. I really sense a lack of understanding for the brands, for their potential, for the North American market in general. That’s no criticism of Fiat–they have talented people. But Chrysler really has needed someone charismatic and savvy that really knows Chrysler and the customers–someone like a Lutz. Perhaps most of those dynamic men and women have been driven out. They don’t have such a leader now: so we get decisions like (perhaps) dropping Csravan, or (perhaps) creating a “Ram brand.” The Chrysler manager that suggested Chrysler compete with Cadillac is no longer there.
I can sense there is no money to develop many new products. But why not maintain those that have been succesful? Like Caravan (which is around 100,000 sales a year)? And wouldn’t it make sense to develop a world-class mid-size car that could wear a Fiat badge in Europe, a Dodge badge here? Fiat doesn’t have one at this time. People aren’t going to trade a Camry or forgo a Lexus to buy a midsize Alfa-Romeo–an unknown. But there are plenty of people that would buy a Dodge if it’s a well-designed car. Cars don’t substitute like toothpaste or cereal. There is an emotional component I’m not sure Fiat grasps–that is the same thing that hurt GM, the idea that we’ll bring the comsumer what we want, what our bean-counters tell us makes sense.
Why not buy ZF transmissions for the new Charger and get it into production? Cut Daimler parts out of the picture without having to bring in Fiat parts that will delay production may hurt quality (shades of Daimler’s insistence that Chrysler redesign LX to use more Daimler-Benz parts).
Why not keep Dodge as a united, full brand, and if need be just drop Chrysler? Dodge is arguably stronger of the two. Splitting it up will only weaken it. Splitting it up and having a confusing Chrysler everyday brand selling minivans and rebadged Fiats will not help sales.
Fiat gets Pentastar V-6 engines, factories, the Jeep brand, the third best-selling truck in the US, the best-selling minivans, a good foothold in police sales. In return, shouldn’t Chrysler get a commitment from Fiat to develop new product? My dad owned at least five Chrysler products. I have owned two. There are thousands of us that would want to stick with Mopar in the future: whether that be Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, or even Fiat, Alfa, or Iveco if they’re assembled in North America. That’s a large customer base to either court or turn away.
If Chrysler looks like Frankenstein’s monster after the Fiat takeover, that is because it is. The company is a corpse with some other add-ons, some borrowed and some stolen. Fiat needs Chrysler’s old sales volume plus their own to survive, I believe it is 6 million combined globally.
About the LX cars. They were designed in Stutgart. They are nothing but Mercedes in drag. Chrysler was reduced to a truck maker long before Fiat entered the picture. We could end up with Lancias in drag, At this point, so what?
I have seen Project D. It is a three ring binder with pages of specifications. I’m sure there is more on a flash drive in someone’s desk. That’s it. The 200C may have gotten the go ahead, but how far would it have gone with no budget and staff?
As I write this I haven’t seen the official plans due tomorrow. But the head of the Canadian Autoworkers says he saw it and likes it. We’ll see.
DAVE, I DID NOT HAVE THE HEART TO READ THE WHOLE THING. I FEEL THIS IS JUST MORE EVIDENCE THAT AMERICA AS WE KNOW IT IS OVER. IF WE DON’T GET SOME GUIDANCE FROM PEOPLE THAT ARE LIKE THE FOUNDING FATHERS WE WILL CONTINUE ON THIS DOWNWARD SLIDE. YOU KNOW, POLITICIANS THAT PUT AMERICA FIRST, NOT THEMSELVES AND THEIR CRONIES. WITH ALL THE DAMAGE THAT HAS BEEN DONE IN THE LAST FORTY YEARS IT WILL BE A LONG ROAD BACK AT BEST. I TRULY HOPE I AM COMPLETELY WRONG. REGARD, JOHN LEWIS
If people complained that Chrysler produced cheap cars with crappy interiors before, wait until they see the first Fiat-based vehicles….
My coworkers are already listening to the media.. If consumers listen as well, that will bring us down. Time for everybody to bond.. band together.. Hold this company afloat. Fiat has the opportunity to make plenty WITH Chrysler.. but not with disposing of Chrysler. If they destroy an iconic American company.. The domestic buyers will have no use for them. Sergio MUST know at least that much.
Stop getting rid of the engineers, designers, and workers.. They are Chrysler/ Dodge. The company is not about an emblem. Chrysler is about heritage & style.. Dodge is about muscle and durability.
The LX cars were not designed in Germany, in any way. Even the claim that they use the Daimler supension units, is erroneous. New parts were designed using Daimler’s ideas, but that’s about all Chrysler wanted to use from Daimler.
The Benz’s used aluminum parts for weight/size savings… all of the similar suspension parts are cast-iron in Mopars; to reduce costs. The parts could not simply be made in cast iron, but required an all new design just using lessons learned from the Mercedes suspension. The parts are far from interchangeable, or copies.
The rest of the LX HAD nothing of Daimler, let alone anything the same as a Mercedes; which was why Daimler insisted the LX be re-engineered to use a lot of their parts. It was also why the LH was killed prematurely, after a great deal of expense on it’s re-design. The LH used nothing from Daimler. It was all about profit for Daimler, at no cost savings to Chrysler. It also tied Chrysler’s hands from doing anything Daimler didn’t like, back then; and again now, as the parts Daimler insisted be integrated into all Mopars, are now being withheld from Chrysler.
Personally, I hope Dave is wrong… but, I have to say I find no flaws in his reasoning.
We’ll have to wait, and see… and hope.
It is sad to see what we have all grown up careing so deeply for appariently fading away. For one I will be sad that there will probably be so few Chrysler choices that for my next car it may be hard to choose Chrysler. On the bright side for me and those in my age group, I may only have one or maybe two ‘new’ cars in my future before I can no longer safely drive. Thankfully I have my vintage cars which are or will be ‘Classic Dodge’. And, who knows. If what we all fear does come to pass, perhaps, maybe, just maybe those vintage cars could be worth far more than what I thought they could be worth before. Of course I guess it is also possibly the case that the opposite could also be true.
If what we believe we see in the crystal ball does come to pass, then tomorrow will be a sad day in history. At least in the eyes of the current Chrysler fans.
Everyone in the USA and CANADA-say little prayer for CHRYSLER tonight!!
here’s my take on Fiat:
Fiat historically has left good engineering alone when buying out another company, so why would they not do the same here?
Ford tractor (then Ford-New Holland) sold out to Fiat in the 90s, which changed the name of the company to New Holland, then bought out CaseIH to form Case-New Holland.
The blue Ford tractors are now sold as New Holland, but they’re still blue, still have an excellent Ford designed PowerShift transmission and industry leading SuperSteer technology.
New Holland’s product line has never been better than it is under Fiat. Small New Holland tractors are made in Italy by Fiat, while the big tractors are built in Wisconsin.
So, who’s to say that the Caliber may be replaced by a Fiat design (no great loss), but the Charger/Challenger will stay, trucks will stay, minivans and Jeeps will stay, so where’s the flaw? If Fiat can build better small cars and they sell better, why not? Calibers aren’t exactly selling themselves, you know…
I hope this works out, anyway, maybe wishful thinking on my part. Long live Chrysler, including Chrysler engineering and powertrains.
JS
I HATE TO ADMIT IT BUT AFTER BEING WITH CHRYSLER CORPORATION FOR 39 YEARS IN FACTORY AND DEALER MANAGEMENT I’VE SEEN THIS COMING FOR SOME TIME. WE HAVE CONTINUALLY HAD THE PROMISE OF WHATS COMING AND THE ONLY TIME WE REALLY GOT THE PRODUCT WAS 1993 WITH THE RAM,2004 WITH THE 300,2008 WITH THE CHALLENGER.
OFF AND ON WE HAVE HAD GLIMMERS OF HOPE WITH P/T,300M,AND OTHERS BUT THE PROMISES NEVER FULFILLED THE EXPECTATIONS. I ONLY HOPE SERGIO LOOKS BACK AND FIGURES OUT HE HAS THE MOST LOYAL GROUP OF OWNERS,DEALERS AND EMPLOYEES ALL LOOKING FOR THE RIGHT ANSWER. LETS HOPE THIS IS NOT ANOTHER EUROPEAN INVASION. PRAY THEY GET IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Fiat should consider bringing back Plymouth because it would allow Chrysler to compete with Cadillac by becoming a luxury company. Plymouth would be the American versions of some Alfa Romeo, Lancia, and Fiat models. Dodge would be the muscle and truck brand. Jeep would obviously stay the same. Fiat, Alfa Romeo and Lancia would be their own.
In all reality, it could be time to say good bye to Chrysler. I’m not an advocate of the merger/takeover however between Eaton and DB, the three headed dog didn’t have a chance. It’s not a matter of what, in the past, Chrysler accomplished, it’s a matter of money… and ego. I can see much of what Chrysler’s Engineerng staff has done in the past decade become a footnote in history as Fiat, with their alliances with Allis, etc. will most likely introduce their own diesels for the Ram series of pickups… Ram becomes IVECO? GEMA to be retooled for Fiat designs… the list is most likely a legal pad loaded front to back.
In so far as a crystal ball goes, my guess is no more accurate than the next but if I look at this from a corporate stand point, the days of Walter P Chrysler have come to an end…….. unfortunately.
Why is everyone on the “Let’s cry in our beer before it’s even served” bandwagon?
Yeah, maybe Fiat will announce that they’re going to close everything tomorrow(worst case scenario)? Maybe they’ll show up in a 200C, with a big list of what they are going to keep showing everyone they were wrong about Fiat(best case scenario, and just as unlikely as the shutting everything down)?
Let’s WAIT and see what they have to say before we start looking for a new car company to be loyal to!
Chrysler lineup
chrysler is to become a entry luxury brand to compete with buick, cadillac lexus, audi
1. Chrysler Imperial* XL sedan: top of the line luxury flagship 55k-60k awd diesel only
2. Chrysler 300*** fullsize sedan: Icon of chrysler 30k-35k rwd pentastar v6 and hemi v8
3. Chrysler 200*** Midsize sedan: highest selling model 27k-33k rwd 4cyl and pentastar v6
4. Chrysler 100*** Compact sedan: fiat engineered 23k-28k fwd 4cyl
5. Chrysler Cruiser** Minicar: competes with mini cooper 15k-18k 4cyl
6. Chrysler Firepower* Super car: replace dodge viper 90k-110k awd v8 sport diesel
7. Chrysler Crossfire* Sport coupe: comes in roadster 35k-40k awd pentastar v6 turbo/ super
8. Chrysler Alpine* midsize crossover: shares 200 platform 31k-36k fwd/awd 4cyl/pentastar v6
9. Chrysler Aspen* fullsize crossover: shares 300 platform 38k-42k fwd/awd pentastar v6
* comes in c trim level
** comes in c trim level and ev
*** comes in c trim level ev and touring (wagon)
c class is top of the line essentially adding 10k worth of features
Dodge Lineup
Dodge will become more toned down but still maintain a hint of sportiness like Alfa Remeo
1. Dodge Hornet vs cube : Cheap person mover 10k-12k fwd 4cyl
2. Sub compact sedan**: fiat engineered 14k-16k fwd 4cyl fwd
3. Dodge Rebel com sedan**: fiat engineered 15k-18k 4cyl fwd
4. Dodge Avenger mid sedan**: reworked from current 18k-21k 4cyl fwd
5. Fullsize sedan:
6. Dodge Caliber com crossover*: reworked design taller shares com platform 16k-19k 4cyl fwd
7. Dodge Journey mid crossover: redesign longer on avenger platform 19k-22k 4cyl/pentast v6
8. Dodge Challenger fullsize coupe: redo interior new suspension 23k-26k rwd pen v6/hemi v8
9. Dodge Demon midsize roadster/coupe: shares avenger platform 22k-25k fwd pentastar v6
10. Dodge Caravan mini minivan*: like mazda 5 sold mainly in europe 17k-22k fwd fiat diesel
11. Dodge Grand Caravan Minivan*: basicly the same as it is 19k-23k fwd 4cyl/pentastar v6
* comes in ev version
** comes in ev version and hatchback or wagon
Challenger also comes in convertible
Jeep lineup
Jeep is to become a large/commercial brand to compete with GMC. but retaining its Jeep heritage. possible military development
1. Jeep Grand Cherokee mid suv: high end opt 3rd row 32k-35k fwd/4wd pentastar v6
2. Cherokee comp suv : high end . 27k-30k fwd/4wd pentastar v6/4cyl
3. Fulle sized Crossover: comes with an opt 3rd row fwd/4wd pentastar v6
4. Midsized Crossover:
5. Patriot comp xvr: same as it is improved interiors fwd/4wd pentastar v6/4cyl
6. Jeep panda minicar: i know but its neccesary to meet cafe standartds 4wd 4cyl
7.Jt lifestyle truck: replaces dodge dakota stretched wrangler unlimited fwd/4wd 4cyl penta v6
8. Jxt 100 Fullsize truck: replaces dodge ram 1500 same platform v8 rwd
9. Jxt 200 Fullsize truck: replaces dodge ram 2500 same platform v8 rwd
10. Jxt Fullsize truck: replaces dodge ram 3500 same platform v8 rwd
11 Jxt hd 1 ton truck: consolidates 4500 and 5500 Cummins diesel
12. Wrangler 2 door com suv: it stays no matter what 4wd pentastar v6 with direct injection
13.Wrangler Unlimited mid suv: Also stays 4wd pentastar v6this is what i hope and pray for
Before others join in, I don’t think it’s a good idea to start doing “fantasy Chrysler” vehicle lineups at this time. Regardless of what should or could happen, we have some pretty good triangulation now on what will happen. 200C MIGHT happen. Other than that, we can be pretty sure any sub-LX car will be Fiat designed, etc. I did say that it’s possible Fiat will rebuild Chrysler Engineering…
To see this live as it unfolds, visit the following link:
http://www.chryslergroupllc.com/en/?redir=cllc
From what I read David is correct. So far it looks like they want no duplicates on vehicles. Dropping caravan instead of T&C, Nitro instead of Liberty etc. Lets make no mistake, Diamler started this whole thing. Bob Nardelli was a joke also. What makes me nervous is why split up Dodge and Ram. Are they planning on dropping dodge 5-10 years down the road and doing this they can still produce trucks? Who knows, but lets wait untill Wednsday untell we sound the death bell. I am sure we will be seeing Fiat tech in engines like there multi-air tech go into Hemis, and the Pentastar V6. Also will we see there diesel tech here. Also they only own what 30% of Chrysler? How many changes can they make? Lets hope for the best. This could be the begining of the end for Chrysler or the best come back of all time.I am hopping for the latter.
Chrysler died in the Blitz, but I believe it can be reborn. If America always stayed the same the rest of the world would run it over, time to get way out in front.
It is hard to say, they have already gone out of their way to create the Ram division, so what would that leave Dodge with?
I think mostly Fiat wanted Chrysler for Jeep and its American factories/dealerships. Chrysler was diagnosed with cancer in 1998 and has been dying a slow death with periods of remission.
I have purchased two brand new Chryslers in the past 10 years and I love both cars, but I will never buy a Chrysler again. I think that within the next 5 years it won’t exist anymore.
If Fiat was smart, they would keep Jeep a niche division with Wranger, Liberty and Grand Cherokee. Maybe a Scrambler (nee Wrangler) pickup. Grand Cherokee needs to have status again. Chrysler should move upmarket with a 3-series/CTS sized car, a 5-Series/E-Class sized car (300 gone upscale) and a full sized S-Class type car (Chronos/Imperial). Dodge should be the everymans car, a small Fiat car, a midsized Fiat engineered car and of course the LX based Challenger and Charger remain. Town and Country is discontinued leaving Grand Caravan with a Limited trim level to replace T&C. Dakota/Nitro are discontinued and a smaller crossover replaces Nitro.
If Chrysler is to survive, they need new product. 5 years ago I wouldn’t even look at another automaker without first looking at Chrysler. Chrysler now builds nothing I want (and most of the US/Canada agrees). They need to dazzle with quality and reliability. But it just won’t happen. Hope all of you Toyota brain-washed people are happy with yourselves. Americans have no pride and we are selling out.
Lets hope they are going to get rid of the duplicate cars, Caravan going up against T&C, Nitro and Liberty etc. Also I am sure they will say what engine tech is going into chrysler cars. Like Multi air into Hemi and the Pentastar V6. What about Viper? I thought I heard that they want to redesign the Sebring. that could be the 200C. Also how much can they change when they only own 30% of Chrysler?
Unfortunately, what may be the real final nail in the coffin isn’t any of this. It may be consumers rejecting, for good, the Chrysler brands. There are more, and more attractive, alternatives than existed during previous Chrysler comebacks, and it’s entirely possible people will refuse to take a chance again.
Some folks point to Hyundai and their turnaround from cheap junk to where they are now as a guiding light for Chrysler. And that’s a noble thought and worthy goal.
However it just may be that people look at the incredible instability around Chrysler, the uncertain product portfolio, and the still weak economy and think of that *other* Korean auto company that sold cars here once upon a time…..Daewoo.
” Chrysler was diagnosed with cancer in 1998 and has been dying a slow death with periods of remission.”
Nice revisionist history. In fact, Chrysler was the world’s hottest automaker in 1998, with strong customer loyalty and increasing new captures. Was the Neon an issue? Well, yes, but they were still moving on and grabbing awards, market share, and profits.
When I was a young fella, a long, long time ago, I recall seeing a sort of “scrap book” and a journal that my paternal grandpa had. In among the pages was a sort of off while business card. There was no writing to describe it. However, it was in the name of “WALTER P CHRYSLER”. It had a company name, Chrysler Corporation, and an address. It has had a sort of smudged greasy fingerprint on one corner that grandpa admitted that he had checked the guy’s oil (our sort of service station and blacksmith shop with ethyl gas pumps & oil) when he accepted the card. A conversation was struck. Turns out the guy was looking for places to store Chrysler branded cars. Could have been late 1928 or 1929. In any event soon after, a whole LOT of new Chrysler, Chrysler Imperials, DeSoto, Dodge, and Plymouth, along with Dodge Trucks were being unloaded on the 25 of so unused acres behind grandpa’s smithy shop. It lead into my Dad going to Chrysler Institute for Warranty work in 1930 or so, and subsequently, the leading independent dealer in the entire part of the state. Now, my friends, I look back over that sort of history. Moreover, I remember being with a couple of my friends in Dad’s 1946 DeSoto S-11 with Fluid Drive back seat. It was like a gymnasium back there, it was that big! At least to us kids. The ‘46 was Dad’s first brand new car ever, even though he could have had many, he always choose some sweet “cherries” as he called them. So, I grew up in the 50’s. God, guts, guns, military service, Country, Mom, home, and apple/cherry pie!
The story (and so proved factual) about a reporter that worked for the Detroit News went through the Chevrolet, Ford, and Plymouth factories in the early 50’s. He was astounded, and reported it just as it was, when he asked the Plymouth factory workers what they do with “defective” frames for the Plymouth cars. He had been told by both Chevrolet and Ford that defective parts are sent back to be reworked. The Plymouth guys looked at each other, then said: “bud, if we got a defective frame it would be sent to the Smithsonian!” That….. is what Chrysler engineered cars were all about.
So, here I sit, trying to digest what Dave has put forth about the Chrysler we might see for the future. It is disheartening. I have had other makes of cars as “SECOND” cars, but, always had a Chrysler product for my wife. I have never been without a Chrysler product, all of my life. Today we own a Town & Country and a PT Cruiser. Nice, both of them, trouble free, and not to hard on gasoline. I can NOT imagine what I might be forced to drive should Chrysler end up “gutted” as Dave has put forth.
Today sales came out. GM actually up 5%. Ford up 3%, Chrysler DOWN, tumbling to 30%. What sort of change or chance does that bode for the company? To be honest, I agree with Dave about Marchionne. He tasks and asks way too much of his people, AND, he puts too much on himself. You have to take time to smell the roses, and that means paying attention to history.
When was Chrysler the hottest ever? The 90’s. How did that happen? That is what needs to be examined, re instituted, and put forth as “THE PLAN.” Marchionne has said that his “plan” will take about 6 (SIX!!!??) hours to be put forth. Come on! No news hound is going to wait around that long. Neither is the public. Get it to the news with synopsis, and make an impact not a “thud.”
Fiat shouldn’t kill Chrysler because if Chrysler goes down, there is no hope for GM to compete with Ford. If Fiat decides to bring back Plymouth as the bottom of the barrel brand and letting Chrysler have all the good car but letting Plymouth still have some nice cars like the ‘Cuda, Road Runner, and Prowler. It would revamp the life back into Chrysler and they would have a new empire again.
I hope that the 5 years plan to be annonce tomorrow will be the first step of the reborn. We miss the passion of the top managment in the U.S. And Canada for the success of chrysler. We here in Canada remenber the years of Yves Landry. We had during those times a daily desire to give our best shot. Since 1998 when Daimler arrived in the picture, we felt that the pursuit of success was none from the HQ in Windsor or Detroit. Chrysler and the whole network of dealers need some car man and woman in every level of the distribution network for the survival of the brand. Simply built cars, truck and so on to get the customers excited again. We know what is the customer want so built it they will buy it. If the top managment continue to do business the way that they did for the last 10 years, well
we will have the same result. Somebody in Detroit better wake up and do something real fast.
well this is a intersting turn or events. intersting thay FINALLY MAKING A JEEP TRUCK. but its a fair dich effert to save the company
The reference to Jeep/Truck meant “Jeep and Truck Engineering” … sorry for the confusion.
Note – if your replies get caught in the filter, I will free them tomorrow morning – got to rest up for the Big Announcement tomorrow. I’m not Sergio Marchionne.
I will have to piggy back on Dave’s oppinion. As much as I have loved Chrysler over the years, I honestly can’t stand to see it go through another failed relationship, just to have watever is left passed on to another vulture. So yay if Fiat works, and if not, why keep bleeding us all slowly?
I hope tomorrow will bring good news about Chrysler. It’s hard to beleive a company with such great
past history and engineering could end up like this….down to the wire again. Too many people with too many hands destroyed this great company. If fiat fails I beleive it will be the end of it all.
Chrysler’s public image will be totally shot and not a person will look to that company in the future, it’ll just go away.
The loss in sales are worrying, I hope it won’t be like when Chrysler took over AMC, and the brands/products were phased out over time (except Jeep).
I think the market is way over burdened with too many manufacturers with too many choices.
In that situation, something is gotta give.
Good Luck Chrysler.
“Nice revisionist history. In fact, Chrysler was the world’s hottest automaker in 1998, with strong customer loyalty and increasing new captures. Was the Neon an issue? Well, yes, but they were still moving on and grabbing awards, market share, and profits.”
Historical revisionism nothing. The minute Mercedes got a hold of Chrysler things began to fall apart. Besides the ‘99 Grand Cherokee and ‘99 300M I personally found Chrysler’s post ‘97 styling a bit off. So again, I stated in my post that Chrysler was diagnosed with cancer in 1998 (“merger of equals”) with moments of remission (Grand Cherokee, 300M and later 300C). It has been a long 11 years and Chrysler would not be where it is today (read, really, really bad) had they not been diagnosed with the cancer of Mercedes in 1998.
I think it is sad what has happened to Chrysler. First the Killing of Plymouth. Then the raping of Chrysler by the Germans. Then the bankrupie of Chrysler. Now Fiat and this will bethat last stab to its heart. I for one will never by anything from them again. Hope no one else does so it can just die, and not go on bleeding as it is.
the one thing sergio needs to realize is there is no real demand or market for alfa/lancia they would compete with Cadillac/Lincoln/audi/bmw/lexus/infiniti all those brands make better products and have a strong foot hold, plus fiat/alfa have horrible reputations in america they say chrysler is a damaged brand and can’t compete what about there damaged reputations in the U.S. and they think they can just introduce those brands and sell hundreds of thousands of units i doubt they would sell more then 100,000 between all brands they introduce there is not demands or market for Fiat/Lancia/alfa they need to leave the U.S. to Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep
I’ll say it again… I’m not an advocate of this merger, bottom line, but this is a business world and business wants their market share… one word… profit! Fiat didn’t make it work in this country before (remember their cracker box?) and I don’t see them making it here this time either but I do see them, even at 30% participation (and deep pocket books, regardless of how they speak), walking away with staggering amounts of technology. I wholly agree Chrysler’s herd needs to be weeded out while, at the same time, putting into place, competitive models and I don’t mean Chargers or Challengers as they’re a cult car, power, performance while not being overly practical… the high output Camaro is ten grand cheaper with better mileage than the Challenger thereby making this a valid argument.
As for the rest, I’ve wandered through Fiat’s offerings and in all honesty, they’re not for the American public… they’re born and bred European buggies…
I expect, and i’m being realistic as hoping doesn’t work… hoping in a business world is not realistic… Chrysler, in another decade, will be gone with the Ram becoming IVECO. As for the rest of the vehicles, they too, unless Chrysler can become competitive in model comparison (6.1 doesn’t cost but a few dollars more than the 5.7 to manufacture… again, cult car) and mileage up where it belongs, they’ll be gone. As for the Pentastar, there’s a myrid of corporations out there who could realistically purchase manufacturing rights to the engine… Fiat would be rich!
Personally, if I wanted performance the only car out there would be the Camaro… ten grand less for equal performance is a compelling amount of monetary leverage…
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What an awful thing to say. Why are you even an Allpar member? Can anyone stand to be just the slightest bit optimistic here?
I’m 100% with you “Good Grief”, wtf is going on here?? Anyone believe in chrysler? Where are the real moparfans? Stop crying like babies and give a chance to Marchionne! Sorry but, good god, is sad to read most of you.
Being rasied in a Chrysler family and getting to work for them was a great time in my life. But after the Germs gutted us and then the Three Headed Dog took us to the edge, made working for this beloved company unbearable. I left when my plant an AMERICAN plant was to be shuttered. I can’t shake the feeling of walking into work and seeing all of those HARD working people who did nothing but their jobs and did a GREAT JOB everyday, it was like walking into a funeral home everyday no light at the end of this tunnel. I sure hope Fiat does somehow hold CHRYSLER together but from what I saw internally it didn’t look good and somehow dread that the end is near. The people spoke today with sales down 30% when GM and Ford posted gains. Chrysler cannot sustain itself if sales do not pick up! I hope there will be a Chrysler in the future and a strong company at that!!
I am pretty sure David has a good deal of his informed speculation correct, but lets see what Fiat and the new new Chrysler have to say this week.
At the time I was not keen on Iaccoca and his changes, remember all of the large RWD sedans and V8s disappeared? Into the late 80’s and 90’s some balance came back and in the late 1990’s early 2000’s we saw a profitable company with quality products, even though the Daimler rot was setting in.
There is good profit in the large vehicles, but a company needs the volume of the smaller end cars to survive. At present Chrysler simply do not have that.
Let’s see how this pans out.
As with most of the comments so far, I too am a diehard Chrysler loyalist. As such I have to hold onto the hope that Chrysler will pull a Phoenix again and rise from the ashes yet again. Here in Canada we seem to have had more faith in Chrysler but how many times can this happen before the general public says enough is enough? Give that and the fact that Ford and GM are producing truly North American designed cars and trucks. I will remain optimistic for tomorrows news release.
MoparSeb, I agree with you fully. Anybody who says they will never buy a Chrysler again is not a real Mopar fan. I-scratch that-We can only hope that Marchionne knows what’s good in Auburn Hills. People compare him to Iacocca, I say good. Many have said that Iacocca had a nasty personality, I won’t argue because I don’t know enought to have the right, BUT he did manage to pull Chrysler around in the 80’s.
I hope they pull throught. My-Our beloved company can become great again, it just takes the right people and smart decisions.
David, you may or may not know that Fiat, Alfa & Lancia were not undone in America from rust or mechanical problems, but from politics. Italy was riding the fence, America or USSR. And even if the American government had allowed Italy to decide on their own, Fiat was the only car company doing business on both sides of the Iron Curtain. When Regan came to power it was curtains for Fiat after that. But they have paid for their second world sins & and have always been at the for front of engineering. Italy loves America, Fiat wants Italy to love them, so a Chrysler failure is not an option. Germany & Japan have been rewarded for their loyalty to America since WWII, now it’s Italy’s time. Fiat R&D (since ‘68) Ferrari Formula 1 – Constructor Titles ‘75 ‘76 ‘77 ‘79 ‘82 ‘83 ‘99 ‘00 ‘01 ‘02 ‘03 ‘04 ‘07 ‘08… Now how’s Toyota done since ‘01? Forza ChryCo!
The Hey-Day is Over
I hate to break it to everyone, but Chrysler is on life support and is not worth saving. The management that I have seen over two decades believes in hopes and prayers, but practicality does not enter their vocabulary.
When it comes to product, they ignored fuel economony so they could build big block mid-sized vehicles that would try to capture the uninformed motorists, and those that were interested in this type of vehicle obviously had not checked out the competition for several years. Chrysler interiors were atrocious, the reliability was worst in class, and the imagination of MOpar was sucked dry as they sold vehicles on their historic name.
I worked for Chrysler. It has horrible management. The Human Resources/Union Relations department ran all operations into the ground. Nancy Rae (HR VP)was a joke. If you can’t have excellent or even consistent operations, how can you build a product that people want to buy? We consciously built an inferior product so we “wouldn’t make waves” for the UAW, but even more so, for the Chrysler HR folks and our legal counsil.
So, if you really want to know about the sinking of Chrysler, just ask a former production manager who will tell you it is hard to engineer and build a great product when your own management leadership has bet the house for their next year’s bonuses.
I was very nervous when rumors surfaced about a Ram brand,thats Dodge’s heart and soul….Most loyal buyers buy a DODGE Ram and a Dodge car…If the Ram is no longer a Dodge the Ram truck brand will fail..
As they dont have a Dodge ram or Caravan they are setting up to kill Dodge,then kill off Chrysler..And have Jeep and Ram but as the Ram will not be a Dodge I wont buy one I will only buy a Dodge truck!!!As many Dodge owners will..Remember Plymouth people did not go over to Dodge or Chrysler,I will not go over to Ram..unless its a Dodge,no F word infront of my Ram…
“[T]hey ignored fuel economy so they could … capture the uninformed motorists, and those that were interested . . . had not checked out the competition for several years.” What about 300M, 300C when it came out, the 31 mpg Concordes? These LED their competition. What about best-in-class mpg minivans (4.0 V-6)? Ram’s going back to 1993 (just plain better design and engineering than the competition), the Challenger? Chryeler being the first mass market car to have multi-displacement system to save fuel–not Honda, not Toyota, not Mercedes-Benz, it was Chrysler that offered taht. Isn’t that design leadership? I seem to recall T&C, Concorde, 300 C all winning JD power initial quality awards over the last ten years. I have to disagree totally about product–for all the areas where there were/are deficiencies they were far outweighed by the successes, the great cars people will remember for years to come. 30 years from now people will be collecting Chargers, Challengers, 300C’s, SRT-4 Neon’s, Wranglers, the recent Power Wagons. I don’t know if we can say that about many of the cars made by the supposedly superior “competition.”
I agree with you on the points about management. GM had the same problem: too many bean-counters, too many people that should have worked for General Mills or Goldman Sachs rather than a car company, not enough people (in the executive suites) that cared about building great cars.
To everyone working for Chrysler today I say good luck, my thoughts and prayers are with you guys today.
“The minute Mercedes got a hold of Chrysler things began to fall apart. ”
Oh, THAT cancer. OK. Though I’d argue for 1999.
I’ve bought Dodge vehicles all my life since 1985……Shelby Charger, Dodge Diplomat, 4 Caravans, a Shadow, now, in April of 09, a Dodge Charger……All have been GREAT vehicles for me. What do I do in 4 years from now?
Again, I will see what happens today, I am going to listen to the broadcast. But when its over i very well may go out and buy a Challanger. That may be the last great MOPAR!
To me, Chrysler was all about the engineering. The cars were thoughtfully designed for reliability, innovative features related to operation of the car (vs. toys), were rugged, and easy to work on, and fun to drive. The Mitsubishi alliance never really met the standard – the 2.6L, the 3.0L, just were inferior. I never could buy one of those. And if all we get are rebranded or Fiat-engineered cars, then I will have to look elsewhere for a future new car purchase. And since I can’t tolerate defective electrical systems and/or vehicle fires, Ford is off-limits, so it would probably be Chevy. They do have very fuel-efficient cars and are now advertising that fact. But in the meantime, I’ll keep my Daytonas and my Dakota running as long as I can, because I enjoy them far more than anything I see now or in the future. Looking forward to today’s announcements.
Hey Dave, enjoy your Challenger! I love my Dodge Magnum RT. I’d love to see this body style come back.
In reply to Chryco fan who commented “Why not buy ZF transmissions for the new Charger and get it into production?” I work at the plant that builds the Mercedes WA580. Under the three headed dog from hell we looked at replacing it with a ZF 8-speed but it would have cost more than the WA580. At least that’s what I was told. It always costs more to outsouce the engineering of key components like transmissions than it does to build them in house. It costs Chrysler over $1300 to build the WA580 but it costs less than $300 to build the 42RLE 4-speed that Chrysler engineered. The cost of the WA580 includes $350 per transmission that goes straight to Daimler’s back pocket.
With all that said I hope you are wrong Dave. This whole episode has been a boon for the antidepressant makers.
“Oh, THAT cancer. OK. Though I’d argue for 1999.”
Okay, I will give you that LOL.
Well the news came out today and it wasn’t as bad as everybody had been anticipating. I do wish them the best and it will be interesting to see what happens. Diesels in Wrangler, finally!
What’s left?? That’s my take. I think Chrysler was a corpse before Cerberus bought it. Killed by Dieter Zilch & Co. It’s becoming more apparent by the day that Cerberus was fooled into paying a lot of money for nothing!
The only truly outstanding products left are the Ram and the Wrangler. The LX’s aren’t bad, but there are no other decent cars to go with them. Daimler saw to that. They even managed to screw up the best selling minivans in the world. I hope they’re proud. I don’t know if there is enough time or money for FIAT to save them. How fast can the two companies be integrated and merge the best of both? That’s the challenge for Sergio. He also needs some help from an improving global economy. I’m not convinced that’s in the cards.
I believe we are witnessing the end of America’s economic and manufacturing dominance. This is a bigger issue than the survival of just one car company. Our government is crushing the life out of businesses here. The economic burden of excessive taxation and regulation have stamped the life out of too many companies and even whole industries. It it looks like it’s going to get worse before it gets better….if it ever does get better. Does anybody think health care reform is going to IMPROVE the business climate? How about cap-and-trade? How about tinkering with executive pay? Here comes the “Brain Drain Express”. I hope people are prepared for a lower standard of living.
Come on, a Fiat, (fix it again tony). I’m an old Mopar guy. I’ve owned union made Mopars forever and will not buy an Italian made car just because it has a Mopar badge on it. I guess the Chevy Monte Carlo is starting to look pretty good to me.
Once again, let’s go over what they said vs what the media are implying.
They showed three groups of cars: Chrysler-engineered, based on Fiat platforms, and Fiat imports.
Everything C or bigger is going to be either Chrysler engineered, or “based on Fiat platforms.” And made in North America – which includes Mexico and Canada.
Now, what’s a platform? It’s a set of hard points – dimensions – according to our friend Bob. I’d assume the Chrysler vehicles based on Fiats will range from simple “swap out shock absorbers and bend sheet metal” changes to full scale “it’s basically our car using their dimensions.” The advantage to doing it that way is that Fiat has conquered the all-important scalability issue – C and D cars of all types use the same basic dimensions so they can be assembled in the same factory. on the same line, interchangeably, like the Caliber, Compass, and Patriot are, but much more differentiated.
As for engines, it appears that through 2014 we are looking at almost exclusively Chrysler engines, which surprised me. The diesels will be Fiat but I don’t think that Chrysler ever actually made their own diesels anywhere, anytime, anyway despite an experimental slant six. They used Cummins and Perkins and briefly Mercedes and VM Motori. The various engines will get MultiAir and Fiat direct injection and that’s the Fiat influence on engines.
As for transmissions, the Chrysler dual clutch appears to be dead for the moment with the Fiat dual clutch coming in – anyone want to say that’s bad?!?, and the Chrysler six speed automatic being used in more vehicles. A new transmission supplier (probably ZF) will replace Mercedes for the LX cars and I doubt anyone will say that’s unfortunate.
So it MIGHT be that they’re misrepresenting things and all the smaller cars will be Fiats. It might NOT be that way. We don’t know but it’s early to reject all of the future vehicles now.