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2014 500L DDCT Issue

25K views 58 replies 11 participants last post by  DBY2014 
#1 ·
So today in stop and go traffic the 500L put out a nice cloud of smelly smoke then started shifting a bit more harshly. Just under 1800 miles on it.
Happened very near to the dealer so I just changed my course to the service department. Service guy says this happens occasionally on the DDCT, they do a relearn on the clutch and transmission and he hasn't seen any cars come back a second time for this. I guess I'll find out, but I'm not thrilled to have an issue like this on a 1800 mile car.

Two interesting things:
1) Since I bought the car at the end of December, Fiat has been moved from the building it was in to a small building on what was once the used car lot. And they opened a Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep/Ram dealership in the building where Fiat used to be.
2) There were no 2015 300 models in stock, just one 300C Platinum in transit that supposedly has an almost $51k MSRP but still only has the V6 engine.
 
#32 ·
Fiat implementation of the dual clutch is a poor adaptation of the awful VW implementation of a copy of the idea behind the ORIGINAL Eaton AMT twin countershaft brakes. Eaton has successfully defended their patents against Magnetti Marelli, ZF, Mercedes-Benz, Ricardo, FEV, and others since 1982.

No one has yet been able to equal or improve on the Eaton design.
 
#34 ·
The first DDCTs had a recall (M37) for leaky slave/actuator cylinders. It was an invasive operation that required removal of the transaxle on a new, unfamiliar vehicle.
http://www.dodge.com/webselfservice/pdf/M37.pdf
While the hydraulic leak issue may have been resolved, this clutch dragging/burning seems like more than just a software issue to me. I really hope they can resolve this.
The DDCT could be a promising idea to realize new 'automatic' drivetrain efficiencies. The Fiat 'quality and reliability' reputation seems to be failing due in part to these quirks and FCA needs no more transaxle horror stories to get to the public through the media.
The 500L may be an attractive alternative to those who think that the 500 is too small.
 
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#35 ·
The first DDCTs had a recall (M37) for leaky slave/actuator cylinders. It was an invasive operation that required removal of the transaxle on a new, unfamiliar vehicle.
http://www.dodge.com/webselfservice/pdf/M37.pdf
While the hydraulic leak issue may have been resolved, this clutch dragging/burning seems like more than just a software issue to me. I really hope they can resolve this.
The DDCT could be a promising idea to realize new 'automatic' drivetrain efficiencies. The Fiat 'quality and reliability' reputation seems to be failing due in part to these quirks and FCA needs no more transaxle horror stories to get to the public through the media.
The 500L may be an attractive alternative to those who think that the 500 is too small.
I'd be one such customer, but for my reluctance to just jump-in to obtain a 500L. Then hearing Valiant67's near-term history with his 500L justifies my hitting the <Pause> button on further looking until I get an All Clear signal of some sort.

Meanwhile, back in the first moments of the Fiat/Chrysler mash-up in 2009, there was some discussion about the direction of the then Chrysler Dual Clutch design languishing without the 'go' signal.

Is it worth back-pedaling at this point to re-consider the decision to move ahead with the Fiat DDCT?

I'm really just tossing this out to see what, if any, benefit there might be to seeing if there's value in A/B testing the earlier Chrysler Dual Clutch design since current deployment of Fiat's DDCT is yielding a peculiar USA user profile . In other words, the Fiat DDCT programming for the common Euro-user has not produced this same or similar profile; it appears to be a NAFTA phenomenon.

Is it, then, that the Fiat DDCT does no at all suit NAFTA users? Would the Chrysler Dual Clutch work better for North American driving style and dynamics? Is the current Fiat DDCT a future problem for FCA? Or is it a simple matter of programming needing to be massaged, but it will be otherwise trustworthy? {Which begs the question: 'Why isn't it that way already after this many model years in use?' }
 
#36 ·
They did at first. The basic design of the Eaton AMT was first announced in the late 1970's and has been under development and refinement since then up to today's UltraShift. The controls of the CEEMAT version were particularly troublesome. The twin countershaft brakes worked from the start and were quite reliable.
 
#39 ·
Reading the Allpar notes on the Chrysler Dual Clutch automated transmission, and owing to Valiant67's situation with his now former 500L DDCT losses, what stood out during that quick read was that the Chrysler Dual Clutch was designed to have lubricating/cooling fluid ... The Fiat DDCT being the Dry Clutch counterpart.

The report that the dealership removed and dismantled the DDCT and mentioned the fried clutches leapt of the page given the context. Add to that what the dealer reps conveyed as their presumption about slippage with the car operating, but at rest.

Can't recall any other 'Gotchas' with the Fiat DDCT as used in the Dart or other FCA models, though. But I do now wonder about the decision to go with the DDCT. Sounds like an 'Off the Shelf' argument was favored over re-structuring a contract with Getrag. I'd wonder if it was that, and only that - otherwise, perhaps, we might've/could've had the Chrysler Dual Clutch.
 
#37 ·
I took the Jeep in Saturday for the detail since it was too late Monday for them to do a good cleaning. Plus they had to do the ECM/TCM reflash for the 9 speed. Service manager said they had dropped the trans out of the 500L and the clutches were fried (an all day job for the tech to replace the clutches). He said for them to be that bad they had to be slipping while standing still and probably also slipping while being driven. I still think it's a nice design for a car, but the powertrain is not up to the task. I could deal with the 1.4 turbo, but the Fiat DDCGT is not ready for prime time. I wonder how sluggish the 1.4 turbo is with the true automatic in the 500L? I was tempted to try a 500L with the conventional auto but I think I'm going to stay away from Fiat branded (and built) cars for now. They did not have a Renegade but I would have been hesitant to buy one even with the more conventional powertrain.
 
#38 ·
Glad to hear the update, but even more glad you didn't have to suffer any longer. And even way more glad that operating the 500L brought you to a different vehicle - those conditions were in fact jeopardizing your life, evidently unbeknownst to you at the moment you were operating the vehicle.

Also very interesting is your outlook on the Renegade. Nothing like a fresh disaster to help one form a more abiding conclusion .

My son is interested in a small group of cars, Renegade being but one. This might resonate with him after he reads your input.
 
#40 · (Edited)
The Eaton design was developed for, again, TWIN COUNTERSHAFTS. THAT is the difference. Every other implimentation uses concentric dual clutches to brake the gearsets to provide the shifting synchronizing. The main power transmitting clutch is not involved and in Eaton transmission is also ceramic. That is the failure point. You need to cool the braking clutches to handle the input torque to them.

The UltraShift must handle 2100 pounds feet of torque at each of up to 18 transmission ratios.

The brakes are located on the left and right side of the mainshaft at the forward gearcase support bearings.
 
#42 · (Edited)
Perhaps they will move away from the Fiat DDCT as a sole solution in favor of the NAFTA 500L having the Fiat DDCT/Start-Stop as an option, or the 6-speed Auto or the Manual Transmission ... just not the Fiat DDCT alone. Hope that makes sense. In other words : in the NAFTA region the DDCT must be paired with Start-Stop.

Later Edit - I don't see Start-Stop available on the 500L for 2015. I didn't scour the options list, however; and Build-n-Price didn't show it.
 
#43 ·
I think my experience was worse than average, something must have been defective from the beginning in my car. It's a shame, in some ways the "form factor" of the 500L was better than the Cherokee that replaced it (for my needs). The Cherokee is definitely a CUV/SUV but the 500L was more like a small minivan other than the lack of sliding doors.
I guess for most users the clutch will provide a satisfactory life. But this design is not well suited to city use in traffic congestion.
 
#45 ·
I went to the Fiat-Uk site (I do not read Italian, unfortunately). Found, in a roundabout way, the 500 can be had with Start-Stop ... a few others. But alas, not all. I found no reference to Start-Stop being available in Britain on the 500L. Haven't taken the time necessary to confirm the same on the Fiat.it site, sorry to say. (In Britain Qubo and Doblo, and I believe Punto have Start-Stop as an available option as well). So, my earlier stated hope falls to the ground. Perhaps the MultiAir World Engine 2.0L and its auto trans package can fit the architecture. Maybe now that's called 'Hurricane' . It would be interesting . Perhaps a cooperative SRT/Abarth ... SabaRTh could come of it :D
 
#46 ·
Here Fiat 500L model sheet for Europe

On some models there is start&stop system like diesel, on some no, like 1.4 T-Jet gasoline enfine and 1.4 FIRE gasoline or the alternative fuel engines, methane and LPG. The last very likely since when started they start with gasoline and than automaticaly switch to the other fuel.
There no Fiat 500L with dual clutch transmission in Europe.

500L: http://www.fiatpress.com/download/2014/schede_tecniche/140724_500L_EN.pdf
500L Trekking: http://www.fiatpress.com/download/2014/schede_tecniche/140724_500LTrekking_EN.pdf

European 500L Trekking is a little bit different, a little bit more ground clereance and Traction+ system that uses brakes to mimic a locking differential (except LPG version).

If You look at Jeep Renegade datasheet there is a fact, 1.4 Multiair gasoline engine in Europe has Stop&Start system, for NAFTA no.
All engines with exception of 2.4 Tigershark and 1.6 E.Torq have Stop&Start system.
Maybe is it because is not available with the 2.4 gasoline engine?

http://www.fiatpress.com/download/2014/schede_tecniche/Technical_Sheet_Jeep_Renegade_ENG.pdf
 
#47 ·
The saga continues.
While I had my Jeep in for service, one of the service people told me my old 500L had returned to the dealership with the new clutch assembly smoking. Never even lasted long enough for owner #2 to get the temporary license plate off the car and get a real one. Dealer bought it back from him. I saw it sitting behind the service department, wonder if they will try replacing the entire transmission next. The clutch assembly is 8 hours of labor plus something like $700 for the parts.

Then they told me a lady in another 500L had a DDCT clutch meltdown and they (with Chrysler's trade assistance like I got) got her out of her 500L and into a Jeep. I think there's a lot of ticking time bombs out there in early Darts and 500Ls.
 
#49 ·
The 2013 Dart had a recall M37 to address improperly manufactured (leaking) hydraulic clutch slave cylinders. I was hoping that was the end of the problem. When a slave cylinder leaks down, the clutch will apply.
http://www.dodge.com/webselfservice/pdf/M37.pdf
I don't know how prevalent this issue is in real terms. I hope that it doesn't become widespread. It does sound like a hardware rather than a software fix.
The transaxle does have to come down to replace these clutch cylinders. A real PITA for the technician on warranty time and pay.
 
#50 ·
I was just reading a review on Edmund's about the 500L and it seems for 2015 models, the DDCT have been replaced on most models except the base with a new completely automatic 6 speed. Must be a lot of burn ups out there we don't hear about! Edmund's still reccomends NOT buying a Fiat 500L as there are other better vehicles available for the same money. It looks like Fiat got smart when biulding the 500X and used the the Renegade/Dart 2.4 drivetrain. That should bolster sales and dependability a bit.
 
#52 ·
I gotta wonder what would've been had they moved forward with the Chrysler Dual Clutch. Being a wet-clutch type, it would not likely not have had this exact overheating Gotcha to cause owner confidence problems. I also don't know if the Chrysler Dual Clutch was intended for an engine of the size of the FIRE engine.
 
#53 · (Edited)
Wondering since the 500X and the Renegade have the 2.4L available if the 500L can be packaged with that same engine? I tend to like the overall use of space in the 500L, but the combination of the DDCT situation and the Turbo 1.4L is too much of a departure from my comfort level. Not being automatically against Turbo I4's, I don't want to deal with off-the-line lag (thus a major component of desiring Small Diesels). However, maybe after the Sugar-Plum Faerie delivers a GDI Hurricane I'll change my mind (supposing they'll find a way to fit it into the 500L). I still think the 500L needs Abarth treatment, too. But I digress. I'd very likely change my mind and consider the 500L as a Micro-van type of vehicle - just not with the DDCT meltdown history still so fresh.
 
#54 ·
The Fiat 500L now uses a conventional Aisin 6 speed automatic (not the Powertech)- same automatic the 500 uses with the Abarth and Turbo with the 1.4. I've read real good things about the Aisin automatic in the Abarth 500 so I assume it will perform well in the 500L. The downside is I think the highway mpg goes down to 30 with the new automatic.
 
#55 ·
The Fiat 500L now uses a conventional Aisin 6 speed automatic (not the Powertech)- same automatic the 500 uses with the Abarth and Turbo with the 1.4. I've read real good things about the Aisin automatic in the Abarth 500 so I assume it will perform well in the 500L. The downside is I think the highway mpg goes down to 30 with the new automatic.
The downside is not that bad ... it appears a DDCT after a meltdown is getting zero mpg.
 
#56 ·
Wow, I can't get away from this car, the 2014 500L. Dealer called and they want to sell it again and want me to come back in and sign the trade assistance paperwork again. I went through this once with them but the first time they resold it (with full disclosure, mind you) the car never lasted past the 45 day temp tag before the failure of the new clutch assembly. So they voided that sale and they are trying with a 3rd clutch and another sale. So I told them I'd stop by and they said they'll give me something for my trouble (they usually offer a free detail or a top off of the gas tank).
 
#58 ·
The 500L now offers three transmissions, the manual 6 speed, the DDCT 6 speed and the automatic 6 speed (it depends trim which are available, I believe).
The DDCT (when working) delivered the same highway MPG as the manual, but lost 1 MPG in the city. The new true automatic loses both 3 mpg in town (which is where a car like this is going to be used more) and 3 mpg on the highway. Being how heavy the 500L is compared to an Abarth 500, I'd have to wonder if it's going to feel sluggish. The retuned 1.4T and DDCT felt pretty peppy when it worked in my 500L (for what it was).
I wondered out loud what they could do for this architecture here in the States, what with the 500X out now and powered by the 2.4L / Nine-speed combination. The 500L seems to be the more practical configuration - not that the 500X is so bad. That leaves either the manual or the 6-speed with the 1.4L engine. If they could fit the 2.4L, that might be the right combination.
 
#59 ·
The 500L now offers three transmissions, the manual 6 speed, the DDCT 6 speed and the automatic 6 speed (it depends trim which are available, I believe).
The DDCT (when working) delivered the same highway MPG as the manual, but lost 1 MPG in the city. The new true automatic loses both 3 mpg in town (which is where a car like this is going to be used more) and 3 mpg on the highway. Being how heavy the 500L is compared to an Abarth 500, I'd have to wonder if it's going to feel sluggish. The retuned 1.4T and DDCT felt pretty peppy when it worked in my 500L (for what it was).
The 1.4L torque rating increased using the Aisin automatic in the Abarth, wonder if it increased in the 500L over the DDCT or manual.
 
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