AF: 2018 Vienna Motor Symposium, FCA showed turbo GSE | Allpar Forums
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

2018 Vienna Motor Symposium, FCA showed turbo GSE

Discussion in 'Mopar News' started by T_690, May 9, 2018.

  1. T_690

    T_690 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2015
    Messages:
    2,944
    Likes:
    3,768
    The new engine family is called GSE - short for Global Small Engine Family, so group-wide small engine family. Nickname: "Firefly". Since 2016 FCA builds the variant without turbo ("N3", "N4") for the Brazilian Fiat Uno. At the Motor Symposium in Vienna, the group showed the first time the turbo version: The engines T3 and T4 come with 120 hp and 190 Newton meters (1.0 l displacement, three cylinders) or 180 hp and 270 Newton meters(1.33 l displacement, four cylinders).

    When designing the new drive, the engineers scrutinized the extent to which components of the Fire engines could be reused. The first prototype took over the crankshaft of the old drives. Later, the developers tested versions with old cylinder heads. Ultimately, it only managed the long-stroke design in the GSE engines .

    With this design, a compact combustion chamber can be realized. FCA claims to achieve good turbulence and short flame paths. Both variants receive direct injection with a fuel pressure of 200 bar, four valves per cylinder, a MultiAir and an exhaust manifold integrated in the cylinder head.

    In this way, the warm-up phase of the engines shortens. Especially small bearings on the crankshaft reduce the friction. Both save fuel. Engine block and cylinder head are made of aluminum. FCA claims to build a lighter engine than the competition. It weighs 91 with three cylinders and 110 kg with four cylinders.

    The T3 and T4 engines start as standard with a small monoscroll turbocharger. It allows a liter output of about 90 to 100 kW and a liter torque of 190 to 200 Newton meters. In the long term, the use of a twinscroll turbocharger is planned. However, FCA does not yet provide any information on this.

    In the preliminary configuration, the engines meet the new emission standards according to WLTP . However, the realistic RDE cycle requires load ranges that increase particulate emissions - a common problem for direct-injection engines. Therefore, the manufacturers install a gasoline particulate filter directly behind the catalyst.

    That there is a variant with three cylinders, decided only during development. The engineers noted thermodynamic advantages over a four-cylinderwith the same displacement. Both variants are similar in bore and stroke (70 mm x 86.5 mm) and in the compression (10.5: 1). The camshafts are driven by a silent chain. The current FIRE engine has a timing belt.

    The new design will be significantly more economical than its predecessor. A diagram from the development shows that much less fuel is injected, especially at high loads. The predecessor is cooled here with comparatively much fuel ("full load enrichment"). An important development step, because FCA has big plans: The GSE engines are to be sold long after 2025.
     
  2. JayhawkOne

    JayhawkOne Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2013
    Messages:
    79
    Likes:
    72
    Chain drive, baby!

    20hp bump over the 1.4 turbo is nothing to sneeze at!
     
    ScramFan likes this.
  3. T_690

    T_690 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2015
    Messages:
    2,944
    Likes:
    3,768
    Belt is better for lower fuel consume. And modern chains are not as durale as they once was. And this is a silent chain...

    Power bump is 10 HP. 1.4 turbo MultiAir has 170 HP in Europe. 180 power rating from 1.3 GSE is for Europe. Also GPF is there to achieve more strict European emmisions for GDI engines. It's not necessary in USA as we have seen from 2.0 GME inside of Cherokee and Wrangler.

    The questions are... Power delivery, turbo lag and fuel economy.
     
    Morty likes this.
  4. AlfaCuda

    AlfaCuda Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 18, 2012
    Messages:
    1,115
    Likes:
    1,237
    91kg and 110kg must class leading?
     
  5. Deckard_Cain

    Deckard_Cain Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2016
    Messages:
    947
    Likes:
    1,629
    I could deadlift two of those 3-cylinder engines... :D

    Those seem to be some really amazing engines. Not sure in what are they going to use them, though. Fiat is going to be only 500's and Pandas.
     
  6. T_690

    T_690 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2015
    Messages:
    2,944
    Likes:
    3,768
    I don't know who said that. And I haven't seen a transcript or video where Sergio is saying that.

    GSE T3 is an obvious candidate for Tipo. That's what's really missing from Tipo's engine line up. Maybe even in two different power steps for Tipo. I do not believe they will offer GSE T4 in Tipo but who knows.

    GSE T3 and IMO two power steps of GSE T4 will see the light of the day this year in 500X and Renegade facelifts.
     
  7. T_690

    T_690 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2015
    Messages:
    2,944
    Likes:
    3,768
    For Americans. 190 Nm of torque is 140 lb ft. 270 Nm is 199 lb ft. IMO, a very nice numbers from tiny engines.
     
    Orsalak and ScramFan like this.
  8. KrisW

    KrisW Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2015
    Messages:
    2,042
    Likes:
    4,094
    These engines will be the backbone of the FIAT brand in Europe. The high torque figures also make them suitable for larger vehicles, especially in a hybrid where it would be coupled with an electric motor to get the vehicle rolling from standstill.

    I could even see the high-output Small four-cylinder being offered in whatever Alfa C-segment vehicle will replace Giulietta.

    The 3-cylinder looks like it will replace both the 1.2 FIRE (Panda, Ypslion and 500) and also the TwinAir: TwinAir weighs 85 kg*, which isn't much of a weight saving compared to 91kg for the three-cylinder.

    [ * based on press-releases for the original 85 PS model ]
     
    AlfaCuda and somber like this.
  9. T_690

    T_690 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2015
    Messages:
    2,944
    Likes:
    3,768
    I'm thinking about GSE T4 with 48V P0 mild hybrid. VAG already announced 1.5 TSI with 48V BSG mild hybrid foVW Golf Mk VIII. So why not counter it?

    Absolutely. But IMO in premium cars 2.0 is more desirable for power levels of around 200 HP and above.

    But IMO, GSE for Alfa Romeo will be more expensive. Most likely with twin scroll turbo. This one is with single scroll.

    I wasn't aware of it. But IMO already a GSE N4 could replace 85 HP version of TwinAir. Yes, N stands for naturally aspirated. But I think that 101 HP and 134 Nm at 3500 rpm is a lot from naturally aspirated engine and it's not much lower compared to 145 Nm form TwinAir. Of-course if they offer it in European market and if they keep high compression ratio as in Brazilian market versions. Also for city car it's more desirable to have a naturally aspirated engine, turbo is not desirable in short distance travels and stop and go traffic.

    For GSE T3. I think that 120 HP and 190 Nm of torque are superb numbers. I mean, 10 years ago we had 1.4 T-JET with 120 HP and 206 Nm of torque and I'm sure this new engine will consume much less fuel. It's an ideal engine for Fiat Tipo.

    IMO, a 1.2 liter NA FIRE engine has couple of years left in its life. GSE N3 will replace it. I don't know if FCA will offer a 12V mild hybrid version as base or that will be an option.
     
    somber and Deckard_Cain like this.
  10. KrisW

    KrisW Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2015
    Messages:
    2,042
    Likes:
    4,094
    Agreed that a normally-aspirated engine would be better in a city car, and the cost of a mild-hybrid could be offset by not having the turbo. Additionally, even the basic N3 could (and should) replace the FIRE 1.2 - at 72PS, the N3 is 3hp stronger than the 1.2, and has much higher torque.

    I would be very disappointed to see the 1.2 FIRE continue in the range. It's the one engine in the group that needs to be retired. It used to be a good entry-level engine with just enough power to be useful, but the remapping to meet Euro 6 robbed it of torque. Perhaps it could continue as a value offering in Panda, but my understanding is that the FireFly engines are as cheap, or cheaper, to make as their FIRE predecessors, so the 999cc N3 would be a better option.

    Was there any word of where these will be made? I'd read that Bielsko-Biala had stopped making TwinAir and was going to build at least the 3-cylinder FireFly motors - that would be a strong indicator that 3-cylinder engines will feature strongly in the Panda/Ypsilon/500 lineup.


    I had a 69PS 1.2 in a 500 on a recent Italian holiday, and it always felt like a slow car - yes, it was able to keep up with Autostrada traffic once you got up to speed, but getting it up to speed was hard work. On a previous trip, I'd driven the 85PS TwinAir, which felt like a much faster car than a 16PS power difference would suggest.
     
    AlfaCuda likes this.
  11. T_690

    T_690 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2015
    Messages:
    2,944
    Likes:
    3,768
    That's certain. 1.2 liter FIRE will be retired. Only questions is. Will the base engine be a GSE N3 or GSE N3 in 12V mild hybrid set-up? Fleet fuel economy in Europe is more and more strict and FCA must do something about it.

    AFAIK 48V P0 mild hybrid should add around $1000 additional costs. So 12V is cheaper but it also depends on type of battery used for mild hybrid. Is it a Lithium based battery or not.

    Ah. For power level. Brazilian GSE N3 indeed has 72 HP. But in Brazil gasoline has 25% ethanol content.
    There is an example for GSE N4 in Brasil and Argentina. GSE N4 has 101 HP and in Argentina it's 99 HP. But it's greater difference in max torque numbers. And even that is not a major issue. Argentinian GSE N4 has maximum torque at 4000 rpm, Brazilian at 3500 rpm.

    Is a HPDC aluminium engine block cheaper to make? I don't believe. Although that might be the case because of large quantity. Volume is the king.

    That's confirmed. For now there is no word about Italy as a source for new engine although engine block is produced in Italy by FCA subsidiary Teksid. Of course for South American market engine blocks are being made in Brasil. There will be GSE made in China. AFAIK GAC and FCA signed a contract on that one. I gave a link on that some time ago.

    It depends on what's your daily driver. If it's a diesel than it's obvious. I never tried 1.2 Euro 6 version. But in the past short 1st and 2nd gear compensated a lot in the city. But it's was always an engine for a city car and nothing more.

    TwinAir is very rare engine. It's not a loved one. Unlike FIRE. I think that most people will be more than happy with GSE advent.
     
    KrisW likes this.
  12. KrisW

    KrisW Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2015
    Messages:
    2,042
    Likes:
    4,094
    TwinAir is very popular in the UK and Ireland, and the UK market buys a lot of 500s. I think it really suits the 500, and its low official CO2 figures make it good value in countries that levy purchase-time and annual taxes based on exhaust CO2. In this part of the world, TwinAir 500s hold their value better than any other petrol variant, so there's definitely some love for them. (I should note that we only get the 85 and 105 versions of TwinAir here, not the 60 CV one)

    My daily driver is a diesel, but I have driven the 1.2 in its pre-Euro6 version as well as the post-Euro6 model. The revised engine definitely feels like it is lacking in power when compared to the older one. In flat countries with low incomes and no annual road taxes, it might make sense to keep the 1.2 around, but it probably should disappear from the markets where buyers have more money to spend, need to consider annual taxes, and where performance expectations are higher - especially in the 500 model.

    On the Italian source for the fours, I would have expected Termoli to change from FIRE to FireFly N4/T4, just as the current applications for FIRE shift to FireFly too, but that's just a guess with no information behind it.
     
  13. Prabhjot

    Prabhjot Active Member

    Joined:
    May 4, 2015
    Messages:
    1,360
    Likes:
    1,369
    Although most likely not the turbo-ed versions, to the best of my outside-observer/no-inside-info-from-fca-india, some version of the gse, likely both with and without a very inexpensive 'mild' hybrid WILL also, by 2020, be locally manufactured (NOT merely assembled from imported parts, or kits) in India, for deployment not only on the rhd India-made Jeeps (Compass+Renegade?+an a/b-Jeep) but, for pretty large volumes, for supply to Tata Motors and even the Maruti-Suzuki+Toyota combine here in India. It will replace the HUGE, and very profitable for fca, engine-supply business to Suzuki, of the to-be-decommissioned-around-2020 1.3 multijet small diesel. The reason being the same as in Europe: new emissions and fe regulations here coming into effect around 2020. Neither Tata Motors nor Maruti-Suzuki (now in Indian alliance with Toyota) have the ability to develop, test and locally manufacture such a small, yet emissions compliant AND fuel efficient AND inexpensive replacement for the HUGE-selling in India small 1.3 multijet diesel.
     
  14. 77 Monaco Brougham

    77 Monaco Brougham Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2017
    Messages:
    1,712
    Likes:
    2,576
    When I think of Toyota expanding its co-operation (and in some cases, ownership stakes) in other OEM's.....I keep getting this picture in my mind of some gigantic octopus....with its tentacles extending continuously.....sort of like a creature you would see in some cheaply made 1960's Japanese monster movie.....complete with english voice dubbing that nowhere near matches the movement of the actors' lips.:p:D
     
    UN4GTBL and wtxiceman like this.

Share This Page

Loading...
 We are not affiliated with FCA. We make no claims regarding validity or accuracy of information or advice. Copyright © VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.