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Discussion in 'Mopar News' started by Mike V., Oct 11, 2017.
I like the new Camry in certain trim levels. For example, I much prefer this...
They both look very "grounded to the ground" to me
OMG - my eyes!! I prefer this...
In person the non SE models look like a Ford Fusion mixed with a deformed catfish.
Ouch! I can't un-see that......
I think that's a bit of a stretch statement to make. While I recognize there is a place for the softer Jeeps, to say Wrangler wouldn't exist without them is backwards...they wouldn't exist without Wrangler as it and the iterations that came before are what built the brand and what maintain the image of the brand today. Wrangler, a rough-riding BOF SUV sells to capacity...and it's not because people are thinking of Renegade et al when they purchase one. Sure these other Jeeps bring in money for Jeep (as does Wrangler...a lot), and help with fuel economy numbers, but they in no way shape or form allow Wrangler to live. To say nothing of the massive aftermarket that exists almost soley because of Wrangler.
I am always surprised by the lack of knowledge of "Jeep" history of some posters.
Maybe they know better what is or should be a "Jeep" than the ones that created them.
And also at that time, what is now the "Wrangler", was only one of their vehicles lineup, with capabilities different from the others.
The 4 wheel drive vehicles.
Your arrogance and condescension in your post is rather misplaced. I’m assuming you’re referring to me by your statement, “I am always surprised by the lack of knowledge of "Jeep" history of some posters. Maybe they know better what is or should be a "Jeep" than the ones that created them.”
Perhaps you’ve forgotten that the first Jeeps...Willys and the Ford GPW...were the original military vehicles and it was the civilian versions that started the Jeep brand? The vehicles you’ve posted were all vehicles developed to expand the brand. Shall I remind you that the most direct relative to the original Willys and GPW is the Wrangler? Shall I remind you that all the vehicles that you’ve posted above all went the way of the Dodo...but the vehicles that eventually became Wrangler persisted? Unless you want to make the argument that these other vehicles somehow are related to the current crop of soft roaders...which is a bit of a stretch. You’re entitled to your opinion, but not to your own facts.
I’m very familiar with the history of Jeeps. I’m very familiar with what they mean to Americans, and how they fit into our history. I’m also familiar with how the Jeep brand is maintained based upon the capability of those original Jeeps right through to JK & JL. That legendary capability allows these other Jeeps to be produced as they capitalize on the image created by Wrangler. Without Wrangler, there would be no Jeep brand. To believe otherwise demonstrates a profound lack of understanding of the Jeep brand.
Times have changed, too. Except maybe in more rural areas, we have much more reliable snow-clearing, very few places you can freely off-road for fun off-trail, and relatively few everyday people that are willing to dent up their brand new Jeep. Most just want something that'll get 'em through winter, or the occasional mountain/ski trip.
Even back in the Willys, and Kaiser days, Jeeps were available with 4wd, they weren't standard. This isn't Subaru with it's AWD-all-the-time mantra. They are vehicles with best-in-class capability, even without 4wd/awd. Sure, the non-trailhawk bumpers don't help much, but if the driver knows what they're doing, you can go off-road in a 2wd vehicle.
I still think it's unfair to compare the halo to every vehicle Jeep has. If it weren't for those lower end vehicles for the 'dreamer' end of the scope, we might not still have a Wrangler, or even be considering the upcoming Wagoneers. The people that are too busy to go have fun in their Jeeps, or simply enjoy the idea of the lifestyle they can't necessarily have, aren't any less valuable to the brand than the Wrangler buyers.
The fact that the Wagoneers and Wrangler exist still, is proof that Jeep hasn't lost their way, as so many of you like to think. They know people love to utilize the most capable off-road vehicle Jeep makes. So what, you're not in the market for a soft-road Jeep, well then don't buy one. -shrug- But the fact they still sell, and sell well, without much complaint, outside of those who don't like them for not being "worthy" of the Jeep name, says a lot.
But by being condescending to people who can't afford a Wrangler, or don't need that kind of capability, while still wanting to support the Jeep brand/heritage, is just.. asinine.
It’s not about condescension towards those who don’t want, or can’t afford a Wrangler. It’s about recognizing the foundation (Wrangler level ability) upon which all the other Jeeps currently sit. Without Wrangler, the others would fall like a house of cards. Which vehicle has persisted throughout the years, while others came & went? CJ, YJ, TJ, JK, and now JL (and all others I may be missing in between). Jeep station wagons have come and gone. The same for trucks, Jeepsters, Wagoneers, etc. All came in an attempt to build and expand the brand, and one by one they went away only to be replaced by another attempt.
You see the level of interest in the new JL. Contrast that with the release of any of the newer Jeeps. Do you think Renegade, Compass, Cherokee...any of them carry the same level of interest or fanaticism? Absolutely not. And to think that these other Jeeps enable Wrangler to survive? That’s just not the case. Wrangler sold in the years when none of these current vehicles existed...perhaps at times not in the numbers we see now...but enough that it survived. Do these other Jeeps drive the massive after market for Jeep parts? Absolutely not.
I have owned a TJ. I currently own a Liberty. Believe me, I’ve heard the crap fall out of people’s mouths about Liberty. You know what? I couldn’t care less. I understand the brand very well, and I understand why people think that way...not saying I agree with it...but I understand. People are very passionate about Jeep...and for a great many of them, that means Wrangler...not any of the other vehicles.
This has all been covered in depth in the DOJ thread, and by better & more knowledgeable people than me. This is dragging this thread to a place it doesn’t need to go.
No referred to You, but, for example, at Erik Latranyi.
And your "Dodo" station wagon is what later became Wagooner, Cherokee XJ, ...
And better to not write what was the thoughts of "purist jeepers" about the XJ with its monocoque or when were abandoned the leaf springs.
And the Wrangler model that has actually more success is not the most capable off-road, in the definition of "rock crawler" as supported by some, when in reality there are many different ways of off-roading.
About 3/4 of the sales are for the Wrangler Unlimited.
And I made my last post since there are some posters (not You), that practically in every thread re-propose always the same arguments. of "watering Jeep", ... Maybe "watering", and give persons with different needs, different vehicles was inside Jeep since is born for civilian use.
First off, thank you for the explanation.
Secondly, I believe that many here, including Erik, feel very strongly about the Jeep brand. It has a very rich history in the US including the military usage, and the civilian usage. It represents a spirit of ruggedness, and outdoors adventure, not just for off roading but for a variety of outdoor activities. But with Jeeps especially, they have been able to take you as far off the beaten path as you would like to go...not just how far your vehicle can take you. Wrangler and it’s ancestors have historically been the most capable and the best candidates to take you where you wanted to go. They’re not perfect by any means, and certainly not invincible. But no vehicle is perfect for all situations.
What they fear, and myself included, is that with the softer Jeeps (not being derogatory) the thinking may shift to the point where, if most people don’t go far off road, then they may be satisfied with a less capable Wrangler as well. And if Wranglers become less capable, it’s a slippery slope where Jeep’s main pillars of brand identity...its ruggedness and capabilities...are diminished thereby diminishing the brand as a whole. And loss of brand identity can be deadly. Yes, there have always been less capable Jeeps. They’ve always been an attempt to grow the brand and reach new customers. There’s nothing wrong with that by any means, in fact it’s smart business. As long as it’s in line with what the focus of your brand is.
The other non-Wrangler Jeeps have a role to play. Very much so. And they don’t need Wrangler-level ability in my opinion. Though it would be nice if they did. As long as Jeep engineers can wring every ounce of capability out of these softer Jeeps (to at least beat their segment competitors), and maintain or increase capabilty in Wrangler, then I’m happy. We’re all passionate about Jeep, we may just have slightly different opinions of how to keep them successful.
Thank you, @Zagnut27.
There are strong competitors, like Subaru, that are rising rapidly in the marketplace.
The Jeep Brand has value, unlike the Fiat Brand, which stands for nothing in particular.
Look at Alfa, that lost its brand image due to crappy FWD vehicles that did not project the image of an incredible racing heritage. Now, they are spending big dollars to recapture that because they pissed it away with Alfa products that did not align with the valuable BRAND.
When the day comes that a base Subaru legitimately beats a Trailhawk over a course, it will be the day Jeep takes its first hit.
Right now, Jeep has the brand image of being unchallenged in almost all non-paved conditions.
When God starts to bleed, people stop believing.
That is what I fear.
Right now Jeep claims the title of best in class off road performance. But is it true? Is it similar to the big kid in school...everyone leaves him alone because he’s big and they assume tough. But when finally challenged, they find out he wasn’t as tough as they thought. Have there been serious off road comparisons done? Or are people assuming, it’s a Jeep, it must be better?
With the limited research I’ve done, I haven’t seen very many serious comparos. There must be more out there...and I’d love to see them...I can’t get enough of Jeep videos...
I’m not saying that the soft Jeeps aren’t best in class...I just want to know that they are for sure (with evidence). The video I posted of a Renegade vs a Crosstrek wasn’t very reassuring...though the Subaru was a bit modified.
Jeep is also, and very soon will be majority-'global' rather than Rugged Automotive Americana/etc. It may be difficult to believe but almost everywhere else in the world the WRANGLER is neither affordable nor necessarily central to the Jeep brand 'image'.
Off-roading chops/super-capability/heritage etc is NOT the utter centre of Jeep's global appeal that folks in the usa imagine: either in europe, in latam or in china, india, asia. And that appeal is far lower than folks imagine. There are millions of suv buyers in asia, latam and even perhaps europe who'd buy a Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Chevrolet or Ford truck, or a Mercedes or Land and Range Rover for that matter, long before they even consider a Jeep.
Soon enough the Wrangler will be among the least sales volumes models of the Jeep brand, globally speaking. It is not just FCA that is a global automotive firm, but Jeep itself has been sortof global from the outset: long before there was any such thing as a Wrangler as lifestyle cum offroading icon, or a high priced 'sport' 'utility' vehicle, or 'off roading' as a 'sport'.
The fact that strikes me is that it appears the Subaru is easier to modify for a bit more capability than the Renegade/Compass is.
Easier to modify than a Jeep Renegade or Compass? In which way?
Removing front fascia?
As from front fascia of Subaru XV Crosstrek in the video, well they took it off since approach angle is 18° (break-over angle 19.7°, departure angle 29° and ground clearance 8.7").
For the other parts, as I already wrote, can be found if one search.
As I also wrote I will not post other links, already shown video with a lift kit, since they alter vehicle dynamics and that can cause danger onroad.
The fact remains, there are kits to lift a Subaru and increase wheel travel. I’ve not found a lift kit to increase wheel travel on Renegade or Compass. You can speculate all you want about vehicle dynamics in an attempt to divert scrutiny of the FWD based FCA Jeep products, but you are avoiding the question of why a soft AWD brand like Subaru is easier to modify for off-road use than a Jeep.
No Trailhawk spy shots of the front end? I'm excited to see it.
The lift are not to increase wheel travel, that are limited to the angles that a CV joints can safely tollerate for the life of the vehicle as the car manufacturer has established to use.
Than one can go over them, at his/her own risk, with of without modifications to be made to avoid interferences with other parts of the vehicle.
The lifts are installed to allow the use of tyres that are taller.
Some, few, increase of travel is done by using spacers, but is a side effect since main reason for spacers is to allow to use wider tyres.
Disconnecting front sway bars, that can be done easily in a Renegade or Compass, allows rear tyres to not go in air later.
Sway bar disconnected in a Jeep Renegade (Daystar 1.5" lift and 225/75R16 Cooper Discoverer Pro STT tyres)
source: Jeep Renegade Sway Bar Disconnect Write-Up & Testing (at https://toasterjeep.com/index.php?threads/jeep-renegade-sway-bar-disconnect-write-up-testing.604/ )
Before and after sway bar disconnection (about 3" difference)
Than there are also springs for the Renegade.
For example Eibach has springs to lift and they have also a kit to lower the REnegade (no Trailhack).
And here is one that is also for Trailhawk version (sorry is in italian).
(no tow hooks at the front since in European Union are not installed since pedestrian protection rules)