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88 Aries 2.5 - code 17 - 1st time I have seen on this car

Discussion in 'EEK! - Every Extended-K Car' started by tomlct, Jan 9, 2018.

  1. tomlct

    tomlct Member

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    I have had this car since it was new, and it has not been a 4 season driver car since 2006 (I don't drive it in winter, to keep the rust away as long as possible). Anyway, the other morning, when the temp was near 0 degrees F, I started it and it started OK, and then I decided to check for any codes. The code descriptions are from minimopar.net.
    It always reports a 34 (Description: Speed control solenoid(s) circuit is open or shorted), because it has an after-market speed control, so that is a non-issue.
    The new code was 17 (Description: Engine stays cold too long). Sometimes, there would be a code 22 with this, if the coolant temp sensor had failed, but I don't have that - only code 17.
    It starts & idles OK, and today, I let it idle & raced the engine a bit, and I think the thermostat had opened. The upper coolant hose was hot and felt like coolant was flowing. But the code still is there.
    It's not a big deal, and maybe it would have done this many years ago, if I had ever checked, but wondering if anyone has seen it. I am guessing that when the roads are finally clear enough from snow melt & salt that I can take it for a drive (dying waiting for that!) that the code might clear itself, but looking for comment, please.
     
  2. Bob Lincoln

    Bob Lincoln "CHECK FAULT CODES"
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    Replace the thermostat, flush the system, change all hoses and clamps. Code 17 is often reported when the car is too slow to warm up. Also check the CTS, as my truck had one with a cracked body, and it was not showing fully warm temperature until I replaced it.
     
    Doug D likes this.
  3. tomlct

    tomlct Member

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    Thanks. I replaced the t'stat (drilled a small hole in it first), and thus most of the coolant and CTS and radiator earlier during 2017. Once it is warm enough to drive it around, I will probably see if installing the former CTS makes a difference. It was not so old and I think i still have it in the back of the car.
    During the summer, I was seeing the rad fan seeming to take a long time to come on, and I discovered that when the water pump had been replaced last year, they probably used straight antifreeze - the concentration was too high. So during the summer, when I found that, I drained off maybe 3 quarts of solution and replaced it with distilled water, so the coolant was flushed out even more.
    Still, I will probably replace the coolant if the code does not clear. The hoses don't have many miles on them (probably < 10K) and the heater blows hot when you want it to, so I think I have good circulation.
    As to buying coolant, the Home Depot near me sells some motor oil & other stuff. I saw in there today that a gallon of Prestone green was normally $ 12.95, marked down to $ 10.95, and next door, in the AutoZone store, the same Prestone green was $ 17.95.
    So now sometimes I can find oil & polish & miscellaneous stuff like that in the local Home Depot.
     
  4. Rickorino

    Rickorino Well-Known Member

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    With the new parts you already installed and considering the temperatures you are encountering, I would not get too concerned. I hope you didn't drill a hole any bigger than 1/16 inch in your stat and make sure it is an OEM unit. I have had past issues with Stant. I had the same issue(code 17) on very cold mornings with my 2.5. No matter what I did, I never really resolved it on those very cold mornings and the engine would take a very long time to warm up. I was never very impressed with the cooling system on 2.5's but it is a very durable engine.
     
  5. tomlct

    tomlct Member

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    Thanks. Once i can take it for a properly long drive (no salt or slush around), I will update this. I don't remember the size of the drill bit that I used, but it was definitely 1 of the thin ones, and I had to be careful to not break it. I found the box, and the current t'stat is Stant 195° (same temp as the previous one) but if this continues in the warm weather, replacing with a new OEM t'stat with a small hole in it would be an easy enough thing to try.
     
  6. valiant67

    valiant67 Rich Corinthian Leather
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    Stant could well have been the OEM supplier when new.
    It may be worth testing any new thermostat in a pan of water to verify the temperature it start to open at.
     
    Bob Lincoln likes this.
  7. Bob Lincoln

    Bob Lincoln "CHECK FAULT CODES"
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    Stant makes a "SuperStant" thermostat that is supposed to fail open. I've always found it to work great in these engines.
     
  8. tomlct

    tomlct Member

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    I checked the box and it is Stant SuperStat # 45789, 195°. Oh man, I wish it would get warm & wash away the salt - I enjoy driving my old-timer, and after the next run, I will check the codes.
     
  9. dc8flyer

    dc8flyer Member

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    Just a suggestion. Codes take time to remove on their own at times so you may consider disconnecting a battery cable to reset the computer. Leave it off for several minutes and then reconnect. You will see a 1/2 code which is power loss but other codes will be removed. Then drive the car for a bit and probably a couple of days to see if the code returns.
     
  10. tomlct

    tomlct Member

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    Thanks. I can also try that once I can drive the car. Hoping for an early melt-off and arrival of spring this year.
     
  11. tomlct

    tomlct Member

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    This has been interesting. We had unseasonably warm temps & rain on Friday, which pretty much washed away the snow piles & salt on the roads, and now it is cold & dry & sunny, so I took the car out & tried a few things. First, I went for around a 30 minute drive and it did not clear the code. Per the Minimopar site, the reading at the coolant temp sensor should be between 9,120 ohms to 10,880 ohms at 77F. I was not able to get a good reading with the sensor on the car, so I tried the original one, which i still have, holding it in my hand. It was outside in the car, so around 20 degrees, and was around 16K ohms, and dropping as I held it, because it was getting a little warmer by being held. Then I placed the tip in a cup of hot water for a few minutes and I was getting around 9K ohms, so this looks like it is behaving as it should. So I cleaned the sensor tip and swapped the original one back in.
    I went for a drive this morning but it did not clear the code. Then I disconnected the battery and cleared the code, and then went for around a 45 minute drive, without a warmup period. I just drove away and drove around for a while, including around 10 miles at a non-stop 55-65 MPH.
    Then I checked codes again and the 1-7 code came back. But the car seems to run OK. I even observed when I returned home and it was idling, that the fan came on, so based on the ohmmeter readings and the fan coming on, I would say that the coolant temp sensor seems OK.
    The new sensor (out of the car for now) also behaved the same when I had am ohmmeter on it and held it in my hand to warm it, so that one is also probably OK.
    I will just see what happens when the warm weather returns.
    I probably had not checked codes in more than 1 year, so maybe it has been like this for a long time.
     
  12. Bob Lincoln

    Bob Lincoln "CHECK FAULT CODES"
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    How long/how many miles does it take to warm up, and how far on the gauge does the needle go when it warms up?
     
  13. tomlct

    tomlct Member

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    The outside temp was around 20° and the needle rose around 1/3 of the range & not higher. In warm weather, it would probably be closer to the mid-point of the gauge when it has warmed up. This might have been around 10 minutes, and 4 miles, into the drive. In warm weather, I think that the gauge would be fully at its normal point in less time. I normally don't use it in cold weather, so I can't say if this was the way it was last winter, but maybe this has been typical for this specific car for some time, in cold weather..
     
  14. Bob Lincoln

    Bob Lincoln "CHECK FAULT CODES"
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    OK, so that all sounds normal for that engine. Not sure why it would trip a code 17.

    Try this: Run the engine until fully warm and when you shut it off, immediately unplug the CTS and measure its resistance. Should be about 700 to 1000 ohms if you can get to it fast enough. The resistance curve is steep, so it will start increasing rapidly in value once shut off.

    If the warm reading on the CTS is bad, that might trip a code 17. Don't be surprised if it goes over 2Kohms or 3Kohms if you don't get the reading within 30 seconds or so.
     
  15. tomlct

    tomlct Member

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    Thanks for the reply. I found it difficult to poke the probes of my voltmeter to the contacts when it was installed, but I will practice with the spare one, and update this thread when I can - but that might not be very soon, because the forecast is for some snow, and if the roads are salted, I will wait until they are clear.
    As to increasing rapidly, I noticed in the other direction - resistance was decreasing very steadily when I was just holding the cold one in my hand, so I hear what you are saying.
     
  16. tomlct

    tomlct Member

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    I tried to hold the ohmmeter connector pins in place on the spare one, while it was mounted in a vise, to simulate trying this on the car to the "live" one, but I could not get a consistent reading, so I have decided to do this the easy way, instead, which is, I have ordered Standard # TX3A, coolant temp repair connector. I will tape the ohmmeter probes to the wires of the repair connector and then probe the real one at full temp, when the weather permits, and then report back.
    I can use this repair kit anyway, since the locking tab of the original connector broke off a long time ago (probably more than 10 years ago - having a car for so long, i can remember where the broken stuff/stripped screw holes in the plastic interior/etc are, but not always when it first happened). Fortunately, it stays connected, by the force of the seals along the sides, but a fix would probably be better, in the long run, anyway.
     
  17. Bob Lincoln

    Bob Lincoln "CHECK FAULT CODES"
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    If the latch has broken off, it's possible that the code 17 was generated by an intermittent connection at the CTS, in which case the repair kit would take care of that.
     
  18. tomlct

    tomlct Member

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    Update -
    first, I found the drill bit that I had used to drill a hole in the t'stat back when I did that, and it is 1/16 inch (i bought 2 at the time, thinking I might break it).
    Now, thank you for the advice, Mr. Lincoln - here is where I am now.
    I received the replacement for the temp sensor connector end, and I installed it today. I disconnected the battery, and now I have driven it 2 times, and the 1-7 did not return. I will continue to check codes frequently for a while (since it is easy to do with this car, not a bad idea to check them periodically).
    I noticed that the insulation near the connector on the tan-striped wire has a crack in it, so maybe it was this, and not looseness from the broken latch, that was causing this problem. See the picture. I decided to place it against the seat cushion for contrast. I have seen these maroon colored interiors called bordello red, on sites like ttac.com (the down at the junkyard forum) - called "bordello red" or worse.
    It is an 80's color, isn't it?
     

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    #18 tomlct, Jan 20, 2018 at 2:31 PM
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2018 at 2:36 PM
  19. Bob Lincoln

    Bob Lincoln "CHECK FAULT CODES"
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    Why is there electrical tape around the wires, and why do they change color? Was the sensor spliced in previously? What does the splice look like under it, and is it a solder connection or crimp?
    That cut in the insulation may or may not have an intermittent break in the wiring underneath.
     
  20. tomlct

    tomlct Member

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    The tape that you see is where I taped it to the probes of my ohmmeter. If the code had remained, that was going to let me quickly measure the resistance, by disconnecting the real connection and pushing this on, and see the reading.
    I did not do that after all, since the code has not returned, although I will keep this in the car for a while, so that I can test if the code does return.
    The sensor connection and wiring were original, no splices, until I cut & replaced it a few hours ago. I don't know how long that break in the surface had been there, because the sensor was spun around, and that side was not easily visible when you would look at the engine.
     

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