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90 SUNDANCE DIED WHILE DRIVING

Discussion in 'EEK! - Every Extended-K Car' started by pSun, Oct 17, 2012.

  1. Bob Lincoln

    Bob Lincoln "CHECK FAULT CODES"
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    Make sure that the cam marks are parallel to the head, so tilted back slightly instead of level with the ground; that the crank gear's *round dot* is lined up with the intermediate shaft's notch as shown in the photo below; and that the rotor then points to cyl 1 on the dist cap.

    [​IMG]
     
  2. Dave Z

    Dave Z It's me, Dave
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    We do have articles here on changing timing belts. Somewhere.

    Would not the tires have lower resistance at 44 psi?

    The old rule of thumb I remember for the K-derived cars was "more pressure in front, factory in back." E.g. if Mopar recommended 32 on all tires, keep the rears at 32, and if the front tires could deal with it (see tire sidewall), run to 35-36 psi up front. Gives you better cornering feel and supposedly better actual handling and such, without hurting the ride much.

    Don't forget my favorite: "anticipate." Most people will accelerate right up to a red light, then slam on the brakes. They'll drive on the highway and not change lanes until they're almost hitting the slow guy in front, rather than switching lanes before that's an issue, or coasting. Coast to red lights within reason (without being a complete jerk) and you save a lot of fuel. Anticipate and your highway mileage will go up AND you'll get there faster.

    In any car with lousy aero, like the Sundance (much as I do like them in other ways), higher speeds on the highway means lower mileage, in a big way. The gearing on those cars will also hurt you if it's an automatic (not so much with the stick which is well geared for highway speeds.) Not so much on a car like the new Charger ... or Challenger SRT8, with a manual transmission you can get surprisingly good mileage at 75 mph as long as you never leave the highway.

    I'd LOVE a traffic light shutoff system (stop-start) on my new car. The mileage stinks around town. When the EPA says 19 city, 31 highway, they're not kidding, -- though I'd say it's mroe like 17 city, 33 highway, I haven't actually gotten out of the break-in period, and EPA cycles aren't "pure."
     
  3. pSun

    pSun Active Member

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    Bob, you ROCK!!!
    My embarassment is only stiffled by my joy; I was using the oval shapped hole on the secondary. Ahhhhh!

    So now that I know how to set the timing correctly, how do I keep from doing 180 out on the crank?
     
  4. Bob Lincoln

    Bob Lincoln "CHECK FAULT CODES"
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    Put the crank at TDC as judged by the timing mark on the flywheel. Then rotate the cam so that both valves are closed on cyl #1 as judged from the rockers, with the cam timing mark in the correct position. This ensures that you are at the top of the compression stroke for cyl #1. Then rotate the intermediate shaft until the rotor points to cyl 1 on the dist cap. From there, just finesse the marks until they are exactly lined up, and you should be fine. Tension the belt so that the longest stretch will twist 90 degrees by hand, and rotate the engine through 2 full revolutions to be sure the belt is seated and the marks still line up at then end.
     
  5. pSun

    pSun Active Member

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    Thanks, after you straitened me out on the secondary gear mark I was in business. I cranked it it fired up put very rough. I shut it down and found I was retarded one tooth on the secondary, reset it again but was now one tooth retarded on the cam. So I broke it down a final time and finally have it right.

    Thanks until the Sundance developes it's next failure.
     
  6. Bob Lincoln

    Bob Lincoln "CHECK FAULT CODES"
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    Glad you got it fixed!
     
  7. pSun

    pSun Active Member

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    I did perform one additional step; I disabled the A/C system to see how much the load on the crank may be affecting fuel economy. I will know in one or two fill-ups whether or not it made a difference or how much.

    The car is running extremely well, starts right up and had super great throttle "feel". The throttle almost feels too sensitive now. I think that is a good thing as that is how it felt when it was a new car (I knew the original owner and drove it when it was new).

    "DaveAdmin": I have been fiddling with tire pressure too. I generally use 32 all around but do agree that these cars feel better with 35ish in front.
    "BobLincoln": Thanks a ton, I had way too little things to learn on this one. That darn secondary mark had me bad!

    Just so the "WORLD" knows what I am up to, I aspire to get 41+mpg on this little Sundance. If it does work it will be a tribute to the engineering of Chrysler in the 80's. Like I mentioned earlier in this thread, it is currently getting 26/31 with the 3 speed auto, I am hoping for up to a 10% improvement in performance for disabling the A/C. I can feel the difference, it isn't huge but then again 10% of !00 is only 10 horse power, not a huge gain; unless you take it from a percentage of power increase/dollar. The cost $00.00 or no air conditioning in the heat, depending on how ya look at that.

    Next is the crank pulley, then headers, followed by Port/Polish the head and intake manifold and valve job. If I have 41 mpg or higher, I will have to leave it alone until I can afford to consider the rest of the parts to incorporate a turbo system.
     
  8. Bob Lincoln

    Bob Lincoln "CHECK FAULT CODES"
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    I predict no more than 34 mpg with all mods. The automatic revs a little too high to do better than that.

    Dave: I don't inflate to 44 psi because I've found that on tires rated for 44, I get uniform cross-sectional wear at 37 psi. More than that, and there will be wear in the center of the tread only, and too little tire in contact with the road. And I think it rides best when all 4 tires are at the same pressure.
     
  9. B10alia

    B10alia Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, the fluid losses from the tx are significant in an auto. The manual has a much more positive link between the engine and wheels, and that really helps. I maintain that the 2.5 cars would have been much more pleasant with an overdrive, the ratios in the 3spd are okay, but the engine can really struggle with them, especially the direct drive at highway speeds. The 5spd manual cars are supposed to be a world of difference.
     
  10. Bob Lincoln

    Bob Lincoln "CHECK FAULT CODES"
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    Not a whole lot of difference at highway speed with power. Auto gives about 2900 RPM at 65 mph, 5-speed manual gives 2600 RPM. Max torque for the TBI is at 2800 RPM.
     
  11. pSun

    pSun Active Member

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    This may come as a shock to you guys, I know it did for me. About a week prior to the belt giving in, I put the timing light on it to see where it was and consider adjusting it for better performance. What I saw was piculiar; I warmed it up until the thermostat opened and the fan came on, unpluged the temp sensor on the thermostat housing and took a look. There were no marks visible on the flywheel. I new that was odd but dismissed it as operator error, since the car was running reasonbly well (the problems associated with the belt hadn't shown themselves yet).

    So, 3 days ago I realized that I should check the actual timing with the light, since I had in fact installed a new component in the timing system. The results puzzled me. I did everything the same as before, ecept that I also re-reviewed the information on the bellhousing marks and what I should see and what it means (including which way to move the distributor to advance/retard).

    There was no mark visable, but the engine sounded "normal" @ 915 RPM (at the timing setting), so while watching the bellhousing marks, I reached over and carfully started moving the distributor. I moved it clockwise first, just a little, then advanced, about the same (back to 915 RPM). This didn't sense yet so I advanced it a bit further, until I finally saw the flywheel mark (I would have to guess that I moved it about 12-15 degrees to see it at TDC). I thought about this for a moment as the engine sounded better, but turned it off and decided to reverify the information regarding the way to set the timing.

    I read that the mark towards the front (of the car) is the "0" or TDC mark and that each subsequent mark was for 2 degrees of advance. I warmed it back up (noting that it never started quicker in the history of this autos use, which I liked very much), disconnected the sensor, and advanced the timing to 12 degrees btdc to hear it; it sounded very smooth, so I went to 14 btdc.

    This had a different sound, so I. Disconnected the battery to clear the codes and took it for a short drive. I didn't expect much as I know the computer needs some time any time it is disconnected. It is 3 days later and I find myself still not completely pleased running it @ 14 btdc. I plan to fill it up and get a good mileage estimate; it was getting impred economy after the belt, but seems to have worsened since the timing advance.

    I don't expect 4-5 mpg for 2 degrees of advance but it seems that I have gone from about 15 of retard to a much less torquie feel @ 14 btdc and seemingly suffering fuel economy (I do need to verify the mpg). The other thing that struck me as odd is the idle went from 915 while adjusting it to 1029, and continues whenever in park or nuetral to be at a higher that normal rate.

    One thing I didn't do when setting the timing was put it in nuetral as the book directs; I assumed that was intended for manuals only and that PARK or NUETRAL are the auto transmission equivilants. If this is an error, then that is one thing I can correct.
     
  12. Bob Lincoln

    Bob Lincoln "CHECK FAULT CODES"
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    Timing should be set in Park.

    14 degrees can be a little much. It can lead to pinging, especially in warm weather. Best to set it at 12.
     
  13. pSun

    pSun Active Member

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    Like I suggested, all apearances are that the timing was @ 15ish degrees ATDC (retarded), it ran very well with very prominant torque and excellent accelleration from 0-45mph! Additionally, as I have suggested, with the new timing belt and the A/C disabled, it was running even stronger (my 16 daughter even felt the improved accelleration)

    On the other hand, @ 14btdc, the throttle response feels very GOOD. When I decellerate, it is much quicker also, like on a motorcycle with a slide carb vs a vacuum operated carb.

    I am going to set it to 12, but so far aside from what appeared to be great (15 atdc), 0 degrees or TDC, also ran well??? This certainly can't just boil down to personnal prefference! I will run it @ 12btdc 1st to see what that is like. Bob, thanks for your continued interest and help.
     
  14. Bob Lincoln

    Bob Lincoln "CHECK FAULT CODES"
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    There is no way it would even run at 15 after TDC, so the intermediate shaft must have been timed wrong or the belt had already slipped at that point.

    Also, you can't even see a mark at 15 ATDC - zero is at the 'front' of the engine, so 15 ATDC is not even visible, it's rotated beyond where you could see it.
     
  15. pSun

    pSun Active Member

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    Bob,

    While I conceed that I don't know exactly how far retarded the timing was it "felt" like the distance from where it was to zero was approximently the same as from TDC to 14 btdc.

    My local mentor suggested the same as you, I may have had the secondary shaft off or it slipped out a tooth (again).

    I may need to get a new hobby as I don't usually mess up this much.; I have, however, learned more of what I know by messing upthan I care to admit.

    I will recheck all 3 pullies, the distributor and the flywheel positions in the morning.
     
  16. pSun

    pSun Active Member

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    I opened it up and rechecked the timing positions. I took photos of each so that it may make sense to someone viewing (I don't know how to add photos yet). The results are that the crank appears to be in the correct position in relation to the intermediate shaft, cam shaft, and distributor but when I looked at the flywheel the timing mark was off (engine off, just attempting to verifying TDC). It looks as though it is on 3 degrees btdc.

    Sadly, during the process of gathering this information my coolant sensor started working when it wanted to, the thermostat was sticking and the coil began shorting to the frame (all at the same time!!!).

    After I was able to keep the engine cool, I reset the distributor timing to 12 BTDC (?using the 6th mark to the right in the bell-housing window ?). I had to drive it in the morning and I noted the following driving experience; it felt very quick and powerful and was sucking fuel like mad!!! I now have the parts to perform the corrective actions regarding the coolant temp. sensor and the thermostat but will need to do it in the AM.
     
  17. Bob Lincoln

    Bob Lincoln "CHECK FAULT CODES"
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    If the flywheel was indicating 3 BTDC, then you aren't adjusting the valve timing correctly. FIrst step is to set the flywheel at TDC for cyl 1, then line up the marks for the three gears at the front end of the engine.

    12 BTDC is the 7th mark, the first being zero. So the marks are, front to back: 0, 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, 12, 14.
     
  18. pSun

    pSun Active Member

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    Upon checking the timing again, I realize I explained it incorrectly. I was using the 1st mark as 2 degrees vs 0 and gsaid retard instead of advance by mictake in my explination.

    The flywheel was not @ 3 ATDC, but in fact @ 1 BTDC, so I advanced it 11 more, to 12 BTDC. Then reset it to 12 BTDC, now it seems good.

    I believe I need to follow the proceedure to reset the correct idle speed as it is idling at or about 1260 RPM.
     
  19. Bob Lincoln

    Bob Lincoln "CHECK FAULT CODES"
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    Idle speed is not adjustable.

    I'm confused.
    Are you saying you had the flywheel at 12 BTDC when you set the valve timing, or the ignition timing?
     
  20. pSun

    pSun Active Member

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    Bob,

    Appearently, I need to set the flywheel first, so that is how I am doing it now; it is set correct and running very well/srong.
    Now I can install the crank pulley.

    Thank you very much for all of the kind assistance.PSc is do hope you are incorrect about my maximun MPG. Unfortunantly, that doesn't seem to happen al too often. If I can't break 40 mpg, I will change to a 5 speed manual; if that still isn't enough, well, 34 is very respectable in my book. Thanks again.
     

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