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95 Concorde Transmission 'Lurching' - Ideas?

Discussion in 'LH: Large Cars, 1993-2004' started by dno36, Jun 29, 2013.

  1. dno36

    dno36 Active Member

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    My daughters '95 Concorde has been an excellent car for her through High School and 3 years of College. We wanted to get 1 more College year out of it.

    2 weeks ago the trans started slipping, wanting to go in-and-out of gear.
    I did a trans service to it and found a dirty filter with a pasty covered magnet and pan. No larger metal parts in the pan at all. Changed filter, added +4 and It immediately drove fine.
    Problem solved, right.....

    Yesterday while driving home from work, she said when stopped at a light, the car started 'lurching' like it didn't want to stay stopped and then the engine died.
    When she restarted it, the car would not drive normally at all, just 'lurching' a bit forward.
    She pulled off the road and we called a t-truck.

    I have never had a vehicle do this and need some ideas as far as diagnosis and solutions.

    My 1st thought is torque converter locking up.
    2nd thought. Could it be valve related caused from the previously dirty transmission??

    Thanks in Advance

    Dean
     
  2. ImperialCrown

    ImperialCrown Moderator
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    Sounds like it could be misfire and not related to the transaxle? Low fluid from a leak could cause it to slip in and out of engagement. Cooler hose leaks were common. Is it wet underneath? Torque converter lock-up is a possibility. This will have to be diagnosed first.
    If it is low on ATF, make sure that they add ATF+4 only.
     
    dno36 likes this.
  3. dno36

    dno36 Active Member

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    Thanks again IC,

    I changed the filter and gasket and progressed the new fill to the proper range. +4
    It is still at the same location on the stick.
    Below the car is dry. Nothing leaking anywhere.

    The car is running relatively smooth. No misfires at idle. Could use new plugs and wires I suppose, however it got them about 40K ago and really should not be critical here.

    Does it need to be scanned to determine torque converter issue?

    Would there be any distinguishing sounds from this failure?

    Thanks Again

    Dean
     
  4. dno36

    dno36 Active Member

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    I have a friend who says he has an older 'Snap-On' code reader at the rental shop where he works. he said he thinks it reads transmissions and has a bunch of different plug-ins.....

    As it is not easy to get this car to a shop, I may try this option tomorrow.
     
  5. valiant67

    valiant67 ...

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    Yes, there are SnapOn scanners (like the MT2500) that can read the TCM in your car.
     
  6. dno36

    dno36 Active Member

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    I asked my buddy if their reader was a Snap-on 2500, he could not remember.

    I have a OBD1 & 2 reading tool with 4 different plug-ins for scanning pre-'96 cars.

    I read that the Concorde has the plug near the right knee of the driver, a blue 6 male flat prong plug, which is what I have.
    My reader has a semi-square-ish plug with male prongs in 2 different directions...it won't work. different plugs and both males.

    Do I even need it or can I just do the key-flip.
    When doing the key-flip I get codes of 12 - 21- 66 - 54. Lots of codes?? ......none relate to the trans.....and the car runs fine.

    I shall wait and see what the Snap-On can do and repost.
     
  7. ImperialCrown

    ImperialCrown Moderator
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    TCM faults won't show on the key dance and won't turn on the 'ck eng' light on older cars, only PCM codes will. You would need a scan tool to read TCM codes.
     
  8. valiant67

    valiant67 ...

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    If the guy has the right scanner, cartridge and cable he can plug into that port you mention inside the car.
    There is a separate plug under the hood for the engine codes/diagnostics. I'm going from memory but the cable you mention might be for that connector.
     
  9. dno36

    dno36 Active Member

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    So if he had the right adapter, I should be able to read the TCM codes through the blue plug with the 6 flat male prongs, as well as the standard engine codes....

    One post said they changed the type of plugs for the hook-up mid-year on these cars.

    Why my Can-OBD reader would not have the proper plug is beyond me........Would there be 2 different plugs?? I looked all over for one that matched the chrysler/jeep plug with the scanner, to no avail.
    One post said it was near the brake booster. Another said it was on the firewall passenger side.

    I found neither.

    Thanks Again

    Dean
     
  10. ImperialCrown

    ImperialCrown Moderator
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    The LH cars used the driver's side interior (body) diagnostic connector for all module communication, except for the separate airbag control module (ACM) connector in the center lower dash. There was no underhood diagnostic connector. It was the only Chrysler product like this.
    CAN/OBD2 won't talk to OBD1 as they are different protocols (digital language) from each-other. It's more than just a different cable end. There was a major software vast improvement to the TCM for better shift quality and less sensitivity to intermittent faults putting the transaxle into limp-in in late 1995 on TSB # 18-24-95.
    If the scan tool can read the TCM part number or if you have any label under the hood or on or near the TCM stating that the software upgrade was installed, then it has already been done. The new TCM software part number is 4797708.

    https://sites.google.com/site/bammerichko/home/a604-software-update
     
  11. dno36

    dno36 Active Member

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    Thanks IC,

    My Innova reader is an CanOBD 2 & 1 reader. It looks identical to a Craftsman unit I used about 10 years ago, with 2 nice black cloth zipped-together bags for storage...However, there is no hookup for the 6 pin plug near the drivers right knee.
    Is the TCM located next to the battery?

    This morning I moved the car...kind of. When cold this morning, it did not want to move, but slipped badly in both forward and reverse. Finally after about 5 seconds it hit reverse fairly hard at idle and went forward as well.

    I shall post back any progress.

    Thanks
    Dean
     
  12. ImperialCrown

    ImperialCrown Moderator
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    Yes TCM is on the inner fender panel next to the battery with a 60-way connector.
     
  13. dno36

    dno36 Active Member

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    OK Allpar goers, I finally got the Snap-On 2500 with the Chrysler 2 adapter for the plug under the dash.

    It gave me 1 transmission code 24.

    Now when I moved the car it acted fine. I drove down the road about 1/2 mile, and it acted quite normally.....clank.
    Now what direction do I go??

    BTW, this trans has NEVER gone into 'limp-in' mode.

    Any Ideas??

    Thanks Again

    Dean
     
  14. ImperialCrown

    ImperialCrown Moderator
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    Fault code 24 is the LR (low/reverse) pressure switch circuit. Probably not that the switch is bad, but that the transaxle couldn't build enough pressure when it was slipping/lurching into 1st or Reverse?
    These can be intermittent and affected by hot or cold.
    Erase code 24 and see if it returns.
    You may want to drop the pan for a 2nd look and maybe another fresh filter/fluid change. Make sure that the valve body-to-case bolts are snug and that the filter o-ring is seated in its hole. Many times the old o-ring is left in the hole when the old filter is removed. Any trace of coolant in the ATF?
    Is the radiator ATF cooler able to flow? Sometimes they plug, especially if debris is circulated in the fluid.
     
  15. dno36

    dno36 Active Member

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    Thank for the help I-C,

    The trans seems to 'act-up' when it is hot. It runs very normal when cold.

    I dropped the pan again and put in a new filter and refilled with +4. There were no pieces in the pan at all, there were very few when I did it the 1st time, the magnet had a little fuzz on it, but not much.

    The old o-ring was gone and the new one was seated properly and the filter snapped-in properly with the little side clamps.

    I did not pull the cooler lines. I would want to blow it out backwards. Do you know which way the fluid flows in these??

    Thanks Again

    Dean
     
  16. ImperialCrown

    ImperialCrown Moderator
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    Warm ATF is thinner and more prone to leaking past worn seals than thicker cold ATF.
    The upper cooler line on the 42LE transaxle is supply out to the cooler and the lower cooler line is the return from the cooler. To back-flush the cooler use the factory procedure and push ATF in the opposite direction.
    Many radiator coolers can't be successfully purged if they are restricted as the debris clings to the inner cooler labyrinth.
    See p. 24: http://www.scribd.com/doc/83860300/11/TORQUE-SPECIFICATIONS
     
  17. valiant67

    valiant67 ...

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    A newer transmission controller software may also deal with these low pressure situations better. If it hasn't been reflashed, that may be something the could help.
     
  18. ImperialCrown

    ImperialCrown Moderator
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    The newer software is more forgiving of faults, provides better shift feel and it gives more diagnostic enhancements than older software, but I am also starting to think that this transaxle is in deeper trouble than the newer software will fix. I asked this back in post #10.
    The LR clutch may be beat.
    CVI values and a LR pressure gauge measurement may help determine if a rebuild is in order here if the condition of the rest of the car warrants it.
    1995 may be the old lip-seal style for the clutch pistons.
     
  19. dno36

    dno36 Active Member

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    Thanks IC,

    You feel an air hose with XX pressure would not suffice...?
     
  20. dno36

    dno36 Active Member

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    Thanks Valiant,


    Yes IC, I do not want to chase this if it is really hopeless. The car is in decent shape and runs like a stallion, 3.3L of course.
    I would not rebuild it if needed, that is why I am searching for a possible 'simple' & not costly fix.

    I am having trouble understanding why when hot it starts to act up and runs perfectly when cool.
    It has never gone into 'limp-in' mode, like any of our others when they were ill-feeling.
    I cannot find an update sticker anywhere.

    What entails a re-flashing and how much cost is involved?
     

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