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AN: Ram 1500 Diesel finally official

Discussion in 'Vans' started by Allpar News System, Feb 14, 2013.

  1. johnsims

    johnsims Member

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    I have to say that the 3.0 would interest me heavily if it was in the Power Wagon. I dont need 800 or even 660 ft lbs of torque. 450 would work. I will occasionally tow a small trailer (or possibly a car on a trailer)
    and that`s all I need. People did that back in late 90`s with diesels that made 450 lbs. I love my 05 PW. But I need better mileage. If Ram doesnt do it, I`ll probably just drop in the new V6 or new Hemi with the 8 speed
    behind it.
     
  2. ImperialCrown

    ImperialCrown Moderator
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    The advantage of a straight-six is perfect primary and secondary mechanical balance. Of course package requirements, design and material advances have made the V more popular. We also don't have the 'long hood and RWD-only' packaging like we used to.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight-six_engine
    Clean diesel (ULSD, BlueTec and DEF) has made them more acceptable in more vehicles and in more states. I know that the local NY legislature was concerned about the respiratory distress and deaths in urban areas from the oil burners. Now the buses smell like fresh popcorn.
    http://yosemite.epa.gov/opa/admpress.nsf/d10ed0d99d826b068525735900400c2a/73511d7b23952d02852579de005322c6!OpenDocument
    Although the diesel torque handling components have to be heavier than gasoline drivetrains, the overall efficiency is greater:
    http://www.compacttractorreview.com/articles/Diesel-OR-Gas.aspx
     
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  3. AutoTechnician

    AutoTechnician Well-Known Member

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    You're being ambiguous with "V Diesels", V6, V8 or even V10?. A V6 diesel will make about the same power and torque as an equal displacement, bore, stroke and deck-height Inline 6 diesel. Friction and torsional differences between the two designs will prevent them from both achieving the exact same power.

    Inline 6's inherently developing more torque than an equal displacement V8 engine doesn't really hold up either:
    Cummins ISX15 600: 600HP @ 2000 RPM, 2050 lb-ft @ 1200 RPM
    Scania 15L V8 : 620HP @ 1900 RPM, 2213 lb-ft @ 1000 RPM
    Believe it not, another reason why I6 engines have fallen out of favor is NVH. While perfectly balanced I6s are smooth at idle and lower speeds, things change once you get the engine speed up. At high revs, those long crankshafts and and blocks tend to start twisting and flexing in unfavorable ways. It's difficult to design a block and crank that's stiff enough while not ending up being immensely more heavy than an equivalent V6 design.

    For example: The import-tuner people have found that modern 5.0L+ V8 engines are often actually lighter than the 2.5-3L I6s in vehicles such as the Toyota Supra or Nissan Skyline.
     
  4. ChryslerFiatfan

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    Please remember that although EU VI is a regulation only now going into effect in Europe, it isn't really that tough to meet.

    Europe once again, likes to talk tough about pollution , but in reality has not gone very far in cleaning up its autos and trucks. Upcoming EU VI is roughly comparable to the "transition" regulation for America in the 1980s, that is now illegal as too polluting.

    Transition regs required T2B9-T2B11 levels of cleanliness. Ever since the 1990s, almost 20 years ago, America requires both diesels and gasoline ICEs to be clean enough to attain T2B5 levels of emissions. At T2B5, we have successfully cleansed America's air to compliance with only a few metro locations not yet there, but well on the way.

    In America, we are in the midst of further tightening to require T2B2 cleanliness. A category that was defined to describe Battery EVs, and to rub the automakers nose into the "superiority" of BEVs. IOW, Zero Emissions Vehicles, will soon be required for every type of auto and propulsion system, which will be adopted and required most likely before 2020, here in America. Ther can be no further tightening after that as Clean, Pristene Air, is just clean, pristene, Air.

    These IVECO engiens will need both SCR and EGR to meet those much tighter specs or even todays American T2B5 specs.
     
  5. ImperialCrown

    ImperialCrown Moderator
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    The VVT software can control the amount of valve overlap and has done away with the troublesome EGR valve on the gasoline world engine, for example. This technology could introduce new efficiencies to diesel engines. DEF will be a requirement here as well.
    Turbo-diesels generally need EGR cooling and it is just another place for soot to collect and clog. Soot-collector regeneration software has gotten much smarter from the early days of catching nearby things on fire. We are making progress.
     
  6. uglyvaliant

    uglyvaliant New Member

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    well, not exactly.

    Two gas engines of differing size producing similar power will burn ~ same amount of fuel...but when comparing a diesel to a gas engine, there ARE substantial differences....

    The inherent advantages of diesels general economy, and it's efficiency while towing with a diesel are numerous. One advantage comes from the sparkless nature of a combustion event in a diesel....

    In a *gas engines*, to prevent pre-detonation, we enrich the aif:fuel ratio fairly substantially to keep combustion temps down and stave off pre-ignition. A diesel relies on the heat of compression to ignite the air/fuel mix, so one doesn't have a great need to alter the air/fuel ratio greatly. Couple this with superior energy conversion efficiency of diesel engines and the fact that diesel fuel is 15% more energy dense than gasoline helps the diesel get superior mileage...especially when towing.
     
  7. burtstwins

    burtstwins Well-Known Member

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    Hence the reference to the compression ratio differences, they will not burn the same fuel amount
    The original post was from #45 of this posting comparing the 5.7L Hemi to the 3.0L VM
     
  8. Bran

    Bran Well-Known Member

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    According to my data Euro VI is nowhere near T2B9-T2B11.

    .....................CO.......NOx...........PM
    T2B11...........7.3......0.90.......0.120
    T2B9.............4.2......0.30.......0.060
    Euro V...........0.8......0.29.......0.008
    T2B6.............4.2......0.10.......0.010
    Euro VI..........0.8......0.13.......0.008
    T2B5.............4.2......0.07.......0.010
    Are you sure? I've found this quote - "The Tier 2 standards are phased-in between 2004 and 2009".

    http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us/ld.php
    http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/us/ld_t2.php

    I thought that the T2B5 and Euro VI were close enough, but I guess we should wait and see. Iveco Euro V engines feature both a SCR and EGR, and the Euro VI engines have a SCR without EGR.

    All in all, it's not very relevant to this topic as the Ram 1500 3.0L V6 have both the SCR and EGR.
     
  9. 66coronet

    66coronet Well-Known Member

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    I suppose the allpar VM page should change again because the motor has changed again.
    For the Lancia Thema Gold 190 it's 188hp 324lb-ft.
    For the Lancia Thema 240 executive it's 236hp 406lb-ft
    For the Jeep grand Cherokee {and probably for the Ram 1500} it's 240hp 420lb-ft according to Motor trend.
    Torque news on the Jeep GC & Ram 1500.
    But this is up to Dave to change again.

    As for better fuel economy that's mostly thanks to the 8sp trans. Even though the 5 sp + Vm 3.0L did good too.
     
  10. 66coronet

    66coronet Well-Known Member

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    I didn't mean or want the 3.0L to replace a 6.7L. I just want it as a lower package option for those who do not tow big items and will use it for around the home. Like hauling rock for the driveway, or putting a camper on it and maybe towing a 12ft row boat for those weekend escapes. If you want to tow bigger items, go with the 6.7L.
    If you want to make a power wagon with monster tires, go with the 6.7L.
    Plus for countries that will tax the 6.7L beyond affordability, the 2.987L might be more affordable tax.
     
  11. Dave Z

    Dave Z It's me, Dave
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    Will update the page, thanks.

    At the risk of straying over the edge into politics, I would argue that Europeans, because they drive cars with far, far higher gas mileage than Americans (on fleet-average), have less concern about parts-per-million (etc) -- that is, proportions -- since there is a radically lower total amount of fuel burned, they can have much looser restrictions on the percentage of tailpipe emissions that are pollutants while still generating less pollution.

    In other words, if you have a much smaller pie, cutting a larger piece will still get you less pizza. In this case, pizza being bad. Which, if you are a typical older male looking at high cholesterol and blood pressure, it most decidedly is.
     
  12. ChryslerFiatfan

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    What units are you measuring in? Please update your specs for the same units of measure. Don't forget that EU standards vary with engine size, and start with sub 1 liter engines and go up from there. In America the same T2B5 specs exists for all engines under 8500 # GVWR vehicles. Furthermore the EU VI specs as well as are extended into 2016, for larger engines sizes, before going into effect. The EU standards for greater than 2 liter engines typically found in America, are significantly different in emissions ratings then the tiny emissions for city micro cars.

    Europe is to be congratulated for FINALLY joining the pollutiion cleanup, even though America is near successfully completing and nearing the end in its anti-pollution efforts.

    But please use the simple rules of common sense. There are few to no Euro compliant cars for sale in America, but the obverse is NOT true. Common sense suggests that the polluting EU vehicles are simply too dirty and not legal in the USA, rather than vice versa.
     
  13. ChryslerFiatfan

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    Interesting observation, until you consider that a Euro propaganda-only "clean diesel" emits as much toxic pollutants as over 1000 US autos equipped with much bigger engines. Plus American car sizes are converging with Europe and the rest of the world. Heretofor it was impossible to purchase A-segment and and a wide variety of B-segment cars, with the most common size in America being D-segment. Now in America all sized cars are for sale, and the most common size sold is the C-segment offerings only one size up from the most common Euro B-segment offering.

    For a startling example to overturn conventional wisdom, did you know that America is now the largest market in the World for the popular A-segment Fiat 500, which is sold in over 100 countries?
     
  14. Dave Z

    Dave Z It's me, Dave
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    @ChryslerFiatFan, care to share your numbers? I see the EU vs US numbers above which look pretty close.

    That makes sense to me from a "what's the point of these things" point of view. If the point of pollution controls is to reduce pollution, in absolute terms, then restricting in proportional terms just seems iffy.
     
  15. Ramfan

    Ramfan Member

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    Auto Tech, Interesting about the Scandia V8 making more HP & TQ and at lower rpms than the well respected comparably sized Cummins I6. Any info in regards to fuel useage comparison or durability?
     
  16. MoparNorm

    MoparNorm Active Jeeper
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    You're ignoring a few things,I wrote. ;)
    An inline makes that power at LOWER rpm, a V requires higher rpm to achieve those numbers. That means two things, a V is less useable for hauling, working, towing or off road use.
    A V consumes more fuel because of the needed rpm's.
    Is that Scania smogable or even practical in size and weight at 15 liters?
    What is possible isn't always practical.
     
  17. 68RT

    68RT Well-Known Member

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    I find that there should be little difference between inline and "V" engines as long as the stroke is the same which is not usually the case. (Cummins 4.8, Duramax 3.9, Powerstroke 4.25) A lot of this is because the Cummins is a 6 and they are an 8 cylinder. The shorter stroke can turn the RPM's easier but long stroke is always good for torque. The slant 6 is a prime example of long stroke getting a lot of bottom end power out of lesser cubes. The inline engine also gets the turbo closer to the exhaust for less loss (except for the V6 GM yet to debut which has the exhaust coming out the center of the "V") That is the one advantage I see over the "V". The "V" packages better for engine length and possibly overall weight.
     
  18. dyslexic teddybear

    dyslexic teddybear Well-Known Member

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    Interesting discussion.

    Likely applies far less to a very light duty diesel, such as a 3.0L......

    But it just seems when you get into any medium or heavy duty usage.....Vs are rare and do NOT have as good a reliability reputation as a I6.

    I always thought having a main bearing between every cylinder was a big plus in durability.

    I've seen pics of the 3.0 internals.....seems a good stout motor. Very Cummins like.

    [jeepers will understand my attitude]

    It's still not a Cummins.

    To suport the above......is there ANY light duty diesel out there where "low miles" is up to 250k?
     
  19. Mike V.

    Mike V. Mopar-nac The Moderator

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    This is a light duty truck, not a medium or heavy duty. The VM V6 is an excellent choice and will shake the market. Chrysler better be ready, they are going to have a hard time keeping up.

    Mike
     
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  20. dyslexic teddybear

    dyslexic teddybear Well-Known Member

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    Mike

    Very much agree.

    I think it will do very well. Also think a large part of using it, was to limit pirating 2500 sales.

    Just pointing out, on the inline VS V.....they are not as equal as they look on paper.

    If you need a Cummins capacity.....you would be very unhappy with a 3.0.

    If not......go for it.

    I have two 6bts, 95% of the time......the 3.0 would be fine. But that 5% would drive me nuts.

    So....no 3.0 for me.
     

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