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B/RB big block performance tricks

Discussion in 'Performance' started by TWX, May 21, 2008.

  1. TWX

    TWX DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS!
    Level 2 Supporter

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    Okay, since we've had decent interest in the Performance subforum I figured I'd add a few pinned threads.

    Please post what you've worked on, participated with, or designed (if it's been implemented) and what kind of results it gave you. This will give others an idea of what to look at. Be as specific as you'd like. Everything from a timing chain change to a stroker motor with Stage IV Direct Connection parts is welcome.

    Also, please keep it to only your own work and experiences, rather than hypothetical or hearsay, so that we can establish actual results...
     
  2. Rodger

    Rodger Member

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    Hola Again

    This is pure bullit proof stuff.

    ... 1998: 1963 Le Baron ( Imperial ) spec'd 413 with a newer OEM 440 spread bore intake manifold/1970 Carter AVS and an 1963 era MoPar Dual Snorkle Air Cleaner Housing.

    The exhaust manifolds are 1978-1976 Center Dump Dodge Truck. The exhaust pipes are the same diam to the rear.

    Heads are the 452's which have had the MoPar Temp Plate Ports worked on.

    The cam assembly is the MoPar P4286675 due to the weight and vehicle speeds.

    All since 2001

    ... A 1966 Imperial with Exhaust manifolds of the above and an true "X" before the muffler's. The same intake assembly as the above and etc.

    ... A 1967 Chrsyler 300 with the 440 over-bored 0.030 and much as the above 413. Due to Exhaust System designed space the newer Magnum Exhaust Manifolds were used.

    ... I am now working on a 1962 Imperial 2 dr Crown with the same way of performance.
     
  3. seventycuda

    seventycuda Member

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    Rodger, I think you misunderstood the question within the thread. Namely, what kind of results did your combination(s) provide versus a stock configuration? This is about "big block performance tricks", not factory cast iron dual plane intakes (junk) with Carter AVS carbs.
     
  4. Rodger

    Rodger Member

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    Scottsdale Person

    I do not know where to start with what part of performance that you are thinking about.

    Starting with the top and working downwards I will only touch on the basic's.

    The newer second sercies OEM factory intakes which are designed by a team of engineer's, and then copied by others in aluim is an more of an "all around"design that accepts the follow rate to go to an higher number than the first series lower intakes. They are also with the spread bore carb design instead of the older sq bore design. ( Please compare with the first series copied aluim intakes from the new box seller's ).

    The exhaust pipes being the same diam as the exhaust manifold in-side diam is what the exhaust flow was designed for. The non-performance engine from Ford's, GM and MoPar's are flared at the connecting point too.

    The swaping of the newer trk exh manifolds is an performance gain for the ones who have this type of vehicle who are looking for an retro fitting gain ( as the intakes ).

    I did not know that you wanted to read about non MoPar Cams that work at higher RPM's in lighter vehicles ( guessing ).

    The MoPar big block has been up-dated since it was first used in 1958 and the larger big block- Raised block since 1959. During this time any other than normal stock item used by the factories were made by some others, but to MoPar Engineer's Spec's. You can see these items in the MoPar Performance Listings. And there are a couple of company's who make an living on selling these items.

    I missed getting the post of your engines performace working changes and why. Please contact the board site and let them know ( they cut out your name too ).

    Rodger & Gabby
    COS
     
  5. kzooman83

    kzooman83 Active Member

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    Have been working on a '75 Plymouth duster with a transplanted '77 400 B engine big block, 727 auto, and 3.23 geared 8.75" 742 case axle.

    When I started, the engine was stock (rated at 190 hp) with the only deviations being a switch to a holley 4160 600 cfm carb and an electronic ignition conversion replacing the lean burn crap. 452 heads, tiny stock cam and 8.2:1 compression, also.

    I built the engine last summer: .030 bore job for a total of ~405 cubic inches, Kieth Black 9.0:1 hypereutectic pistons, stock crank and rods- all resized with new bearings, rebuilt 452 heads, summit racing hydraulic flat tappet cam w/ 282/292 advertised duration and .465"/.488" valve lift and advanced 2 camshaft degrees/ 4 crank degrees, rebuilt Holley 3310 750 cfm vacuum secondary dual feed carb w/ #72 jets and Quick Fuel Technology adjustable billet secondary diaphragm housing and .037" accelerator pump discharge nozzle, Mopar Performance electronic ignition distributor with one stock advance spring and one Mr. Gasket light weight advance spring ( I found that with both lightweight springs, the idle was very unstable; ok for a race car, wouldn't recommend it on a street car), summit aluminum radiator, and also added a cheetah full manual valve body to the 727 and a B&M Star Shifter and trans cooler. Total timing is set at 36 degrees before top dead center with full mechanical advance at ~2400 rpm. The intake and exhaust manifolds are stock (for now).

    This combo cost me a little under $2500.00 to put together not including what a block and heads would cost (they came with the car).

    I want to run it at Knoll gas motorsports park in Martin, MI when it is fully broken in. As of right now I don't have any numbers to back it up, but I can say that I had the secondaries on the carb disconnected during the first test drive so they did not open at all, and it is far faster on just the primaries now than it was on all four barrels before the build. Hooked up the secondaries and did a burnout in front of the house and it literally dug ruts in the asphalt. It has more low end torque than the 255/60 R15s can put to the ground, pulls hard all the way to redline and barks the tires on the 1-2 upshift.

    From a purely subjective point of view, it feels quicker than my uncle's stock '71 Trans Am 455 H.O.

    I will let you guys know what happens when I get it dyno'd and when I finally get it to the track.
     
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  6. kzooman83

    kzooman83 Active Member

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    Found an Edelbrock torker 383 intake manifold at the swap meet; added that and a set of 8mm Accel plug wires. The new intake adds a decent amount of power higher in the powerband compared to the old stock low rise dual plane intake and adapter plate (the stock intake has a spread bore flange, Holley carbs have square bore flange). The gain is noticeable without test equipment. It does not seem to have sacrificed much, if any, power down low in the powerband either, which I was a little surprised about. Still have yet to get the car to the track or dyno, but will let you guys know.
     
  7. 1968NewportCustom

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    Hey I want a (junk) manifold! Like cast iron more than soft metals. I carry magnets on me for quality testing. =)
     
  8. Rodger

    Rodger Member

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    Nate

    When I read the word performance I did not see an clause that said performace is only measured at top RPM's with HP
    number's. The average person keeps the engine from 2,200 to 3,000 RPM's. This is at the Torque RPM's.

    When you are out in Scottsdale on an Saturday, at what RPM's are you noticing at the peak of 75 MPH ???

    If an owner builds to where they drive at, this is performance at that engine speed. If the next person builds to what
    they think is the best and then drives mostly at the Free-way Speeds, the engine is not tuned best. If this same high
    RPM built engine/vehicle just happens to be in the local Saint Patricks Day Parade ( or at Reno's "Hot August Night's" ) ,
    it will be the one with an over heating issue.
    ================================================================================
    Erik

    An audit of the Aluim after market intakes with an dyno on the same engine every time will show that some will have
    "reading's" below the factory's data.

    This is also shown with tube header's at the above shown RPM's when they remove the factory's cast iron exh manifolds.

    Rodger & Gabby
    COS
     
  9. Duster BB

    Duster BB Guest

    Maybe when only 1 or the other is added but both together would show definite improvement at any rpm. stock 383 330hp will jump to 400hp easy with an intake, and header improvement might need a little more carb to show fully
     
  10. dana44

    Ad-Free Member

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    And penny for pound, you can add headers, cam, lifters, roller rockers, even intake and carb....and your total gain will be around 50-60hp depending on the combination. Take that stock engine and port the heads and you can add an easy 60 hp, bumping it up to 150hp easy with all your add-ons. In other words, doesn't matter what you do, if you don't port the heads, you can gain a little, and port the heads and add a lot.
     
  11. Duster BB

    Duster BB Guest

    Porting is a no brainer its a time and effort kind of thing not add on.
     
  12. dana44

    Ad-Free Member

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    You are right. I was taught by a very professional race engine builder 30 years ago and have been doing it ever since. It takes a great deal of understanding of flow, ability to see flow, quench, and flame travel, removal of restrictions in the combustion chamber that is rarely done, and a few tools and lots of time. Almost any head requires about 8 hours or more to get an improvement in both street use and a race prep head (and yeah, about 12hrs a head for that), quad valve heads take about 11-12hrs each, mostly because they are smaller ports overall and care has to be taken due to the angles of the ports themselves and more combustion chamber work usually. I have walked many on here through the process piece by piece, just whether or not a person is ready to deal with the time and hard work required to accomplish it correctly. I do at least three or four sets of heads a year, will probably do more since I have more free time on my hands now.
     
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  13. kzooman83

    kzooman83 Active Member

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    Hey dana44, what do you usually charge to port a set of heads?
     
  14. dana44

    Ad-Free Member

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    At any time a person can send me a pm about porting. Each application and heads themselves is different, then there is a bit of personal prep to keep costs down and me from doing greasy work for no reason. Let's see what you are looking for and what I can do for you.
     
  15. awyseguy

    awyseguy Well-Known Member

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    My car & drive train are long gone.. from me. I haven't found there current location yet.
    Had a 1969 Roadrunner.. I got it with a dismantled 383 in the trunk. I moved the 400 2BBL from my '74 Fury into it.
    Then after running it hot enough several times and finally bending the #2 rod every which way..
    I traded my 318 & 340 parts for the parts my friend was no longer using for his race car..

    I pulled it and:
    used off friends old "stock car" a set of '69 383 heads closed chambered.. cleaned up.. and shaved..
    Cam .496 Lift 294 deg Duration.
    had to adapt carb.. Off different race car.. Holley 2BBL. No choke provisions.. was on High comp SBC with size 76 jets in it.. installed, and went up to some size 86 jets.. Needed enough fuel to drive it to work.
    Strangely OEM rings were within specs. got same pistons and rings installed in it.
    Crank.. I wanted forged. there is/ was no forged 400 BB crank..
    Forged 383 crank.. set of 6pack rods

    looking back.. I should have not been intimidated by the electronic ignition and moved it over to the RR.

    No Dyno results.. seat of the pants.. and sound of it running,. OMG what a beast!

    Idle smoothed out around 2K.. and at 1K sounded and looked like it wanted to get out of the car.

    Never got to drive it aggressively.. but normal back & forth to work,.. MPG.. was .. 1.5 MPG..

    I later swapped out for am 895CFM Thermoquad.. when had me a little bit lean but getting 3mpg.

    I want my motor back for my Dakota.

    Does anyone know a man that works or worked for Armstrong Flooring in northern Illinois that purchased a green 69 RoadRunner in the early 90's
     
  16. fryous3

    fryous3 New Member

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    Well, I'll just add my story to the mix. I have a 73 Fury III with a 440, 727 and 323 gears. The car was perfectly fine with no damage, just faded paint. Couldn't leave it alone so over the past two years I have done the following.

    Pulled the motor, trans and rebuilt with a powermotive 4.15 stroker kit with Ross flat top pistons. Just cleaned the deck up and left the pistons about .10" ? in the hole. Added eddie rpm heads with 84cc chambers and an eddie rpm intake. Hughes provided the 237 [at].50 cam with 544" lift and 1.5 roller rockers. fuel is supplied by a proform 850 cfm vac secondary carb all fired by a mopar electronic dissy with a msd 6a unit. Replaced the 5/16" fuel line with a 3/8" line from tube ? and put a 70 charger pickup in the tank. This pick up will work in a Fury just fine with only a minor tweak on the line.

    Trans was rebuilt to stock specs; still holding up but there is a bit of flare on the 1-2 shift, probably due to the increased torque. Probably need to further update with more HP stuff. Converter is a used 2400 stall unit that appears to work well in this stroker combo. Tires are nitto 275/40/18 for the rear on 11" rims.

    Overall performance has been very good, moving this 4200 lb car into the 13s at 5200 feet altitude. will burn up the expensive nittos if not careful.

    This winter will pull the heads and more carefully measure piston deck height and figure out my quench height. Want to get it to around 0.45" including the gasket. This should put my CR around 10.7 or so but the quench should minimize detonation on pump gas. Will also have Angelo at Geddes Engine Perfomance clean up the heads for a bit more flow while we're at it. So, all the work on the car has increased the perfomance and driving pleasure while still getting 15 mpg on the interstate at 75mph and is a steady cruiser around town. It is a real joy to cruise in.

    Visit my album in the gallery under personal albums (Bobs car). [​IMG]
     
  17. Rodger

    Rodger Member

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    Ho-Ho-Ho To All

    I get the pleasure of having Bob and his
    wife over here at our place from time to
    time. The neighbors all like to see his
    two door Fury ( with his car here all my
    cars look much like something parked at
    the "fishing hole" or "hunting camp" ).

    What Bob did not say was his car came with
    the Factory Tow Pkg. The original hitch
    was removed several years ago and is
    stored.


    Rodger & Gabby
    COS
     
  18. grandpa206

    grandpa206 Guest

    [email="jm4345[at]hotmail.com". My hotrod is a 65 Dodge Coronet 440 model. The block, 1967HP(.040 over)/Edelbrock Performer 84CC alum heads, Crane 1.6 adjustable roller rockers, Schneider SOLID LIFTER CAM 284/530, Torker II single plane, Proform 850cfm dbl pumper, 50cc pumps, CSR electric water pump, GRIFFIN custom alum radiator, MSD distributor/coil/6AL(6 grand chip) . Line lock for burn outs/foot brake for racing, launch @ 1500. 727 by local TORQUEFLITE GURU, programmed to shift [at]5800 consistently, convertor 2800-3200, frame rail connectors, loop, 8 3/4 possessing 4.10's, 27x10x15 Hoosiers. Interior restored to original silver weave maroon fabric, with a white/pearl/clear coat paint. Engine diyno: Peak HP is 485 [at]5800 and peak torque of 500 @ 3500. Weight w/me 3,940 = best time (once) 12.71 @ 108 (w/3.91). tks for the forum. Jim Sanders, Lynnwood, WA
     
  19. grandpa206

    grandpa206 Guest

    [email="jm4345[at]hotmail.com". My hotrod is a 65 Dodge Coronet 440 model. The block, 1967HP(.040 over)/Edelbrock Performer 84CC alum heads, Crane 1.6 adjustable roller rockers, Schneider SOLID LIFTER CAM 284/530, Torker II single plane, Proform 850cfm dbl pumper, 50cc pumps, CSR electric water pump, GRIFFIN custom alum radiator, MSD distributor/coil/6AL(6 grand chip) . Line lock for burn outs/foot brake for racing, launch @ 1500. 727 by local TORQUEFLITE GURU, programmed to shift [at]5800 consistently, convertor 2800-3200, frame rail connectors, loop, 8 3/4 possessing 4.10's, 27x10x15 Hoosiers. Interior restored to original silver weave maroon fabric, with a white/pearl/clear coat paint. Engine diyno: Peak HP is 485 [at]5800 and peak torque of 500 @ 3500. Weight w/me 3,940 = best time (once) 12.71 @ 108 (w/3.91). tks for the forum. Jim Sanders, Lynnwood, WA
     
  20. Brock1980

    Brock1980 New Member

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    I heard that if u port let's say stock 906 heads the smoothness of the porting is not good while make the engine fall on it's face. And to just leave it rough.
     

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