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Bristol Brigand V8 Turbo

Discussion in 'Outside North America' started by Star Car, Feb 6, 2020.

  1. Star Car

    Star Car Member

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    While Bristol Cars were notorious for not divulging any power output figures for its Chrysler powered cars, nevertheless is there some idea on what the Rotomaster equipped 360 LA V8 Turbo engine was likely putting out if one assumes the more potent standard 360 LA V8 engines used by various Bristol outside of the US along with the Jensen Interceptor S4 and Dodge Lil' Red Express was said to be putting out in the region of 245-260 hp (net)?

    Also interested to know more about Chrysler's side of the story in their previous experiments with the Rotomaster turbocharger, particularly on the LA V8 engine and whether there were any plans to slot an LA V8 Turbo into any models as the Chrysler analogue of the Pontiac 301 Turbo (in additional to other unbuilt turbocharged engines).
     
  2. Dave Z

    Dave Z It's me, Dave
    Staff Member Supporter

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    We cover Bristol a bit at Bristol Cars: Hand-made, Mopar-powered luxury-performance cars (at https://www.allpar.com/cars/adopted/misc/bristol.html )

    I even went to the Bristol showroom in person, but they were closed...

    Okay, I see very few horsepower ratings after all. The 410’s 318 was rated at 250 hp / 340 lb-ft with 26 second 0-100, but it only had a four-barrel carb and high-lift cam, no turbo. Those were gross ratings, not net, so it's not much over the standard 150 hp, but the electric fans reduced parasitic drag a little bit.

    They don't seem to have really gotten serious about power until, oddly, 1980, when tehy did the turbo 360 you mentioned. 0-60 was down to 6.0 seconds, which is still pretty good, albeit not for a car of that price. As you say no horsepower figures.

    With the 1993 Blenheim they dropped the turbo and used the Magnum EFI engine from trucks.

    I wonder if I put the Fighter into the Viper book, it used the Viper engine and from the look of things much of the Viper body as well. It would have been very cool if they had done a version based on the midengine design study at Chrysler. I don't think anyone else could.
     
  3. Star Car

    Star Car Member

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    Based on the following Bristol pdf and additional link below, it would seem the 360 LA V8 turbo was guessed to be roughly putting out anywhere from 330-350 hp (though recall another link claiming the engine put out as much as 400 hp or so).

    Am assuming the naturally aspirated versions outside of North American were not hindered due to US emissions regulations for cars by having to utilize catalytic converters, meaning the outsides for naturally aspirated 360 LA V8s in Bristols (and Jensen) would likely be putting out a bit more power.

    - http://www.bristolcars.co.uk/resources/Octane_Bristol_Article-2.pdf
    - Bristol 411 - road test (at https://drive-my.com/en/test-drive/item/1864-bristol-411-road-test.html )
     
  4. GLHS60

    GLHS60 Well-Known Member

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    Hugh McInnis wrote a little in one of his excellent Turbochargers books about Bristol.

    I don't remember any power details but he explained they were low and his diagnosis.

    The narrow Engine bay wasn't wide enough for an efficient Turbocharger exhaust outlet.

    His solution was a banjo style outlet that allowed better exhaust flow out of the Turbo.

    This diagnosis has proven sound as exhaust flow "aft the turbo" is critical for max power.

    In my small world of Chrysler 2.2/2.5 Turbos there are large gains to be found in this area.

    Our "swingvalves" are terribly restrictive for manufacturing simplicity but certainly not max power.

    Many gains are to be had with free flowing exhaust outlets (swingvalves) in Chrysler terminology..

    Thanks
    Randy

    If the picture takes the banjo housing is in white nearest the right wing or fender


    [​IMG]
     
  5. GLHS60

    GLHS60 Well-Known Member

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    Back in the 1980's when Shelby was associated with Chrysler he built a Twin Turbo Pantera.

    The Engine was a Chrysler 340 so someone at Chrysler must have had interest in a Turbo LA

    A Shelby book mentioned transaxles were the weak link as power was approx 1,000

    Notice the free flowing exhaust outlets.

    Thanks
    Randy


    [​IMG]
     
    ImperialCrown likes this.
  6. Star Car

    Star Car Member

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    Would have to wonder what Chrysler models could have benefited from a Bristol-inspired turbocharged LA V8, another intriguing idea would have been an earlier turbocharged 239 V6 as Chrysler's equivalent of the 3.8 Buick V6 Turbo LD5.

    Jensen could have also probably benefited using the above for their Jensen Interceptor S4 as well as Monteverdi and possibly De Tomaso (assuming the Shelby twin-turbo Pantera implies De Tomaso was considering switching from Ford to Chrysler V8 engines for the Pantera, Longchamp and Deauville).

    *- Have read elsewhere from other Chrysler enthusiasts that there was much unexploited potential in the RWD Chrysler M platform despite effectively being superseded by the cheaper K-Car platform, still a properly developed Chrysler M platform* forming the basis for a potential challenger to the Buick Regal GNX is an appealing idea (yet would have to know what Chrysler's original product plans were regarding RWD platforms before financial troubles forced them to stake everything on the K-Car platform).
     
  7. GLHS60

    GLHS60 Well-Known Member

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    Carburetors and Turbochargers aren't the best combo in the consumer world.

    I've had several over the years so have some experience.

    Buick and Pontiac mostly proved that and put them on their arguably worst Engines.

    Chrysler was busy perfecting their Turbo EFI 4 cyl Engines, arguably among the sturdiest.

    Chrysler was actually ahead of the curve as California essentially banned larger Engines.

    Chrysler developed a reliable line of Turbo 4 cyl economy, luxury, sports cars and minivans.

    Pressure from Ford and GM resulted in California rescinding the ban as only Chrysler could comply.

    I suspect Chrysler got more press and infamy from their Omni GLH Turbo than anything else.

    Development costs were probably about zero to build and sell a cult classic.

    Buick did perfect their SEFI 3.8 Turbo in time to drop it after 1987 and never really replaced it.

    It became a cult classic too but Buick went back to a seniors car, not capitalizing on the GN.

    Chrysler ended up with the Viper, many SRT's, R/T's and Hemi's.

    All told they did pretty well image wise.

    The K car was brilliant!!

    Thanks
    Randy
     
  8. Star Car

    Star Car Member

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    There is little doubt Chrysler did well with their Turbo EFI 4 cylinder engines used in the K-Car (plus related variants), especially given what it led to down the line. It is unfortunate however the turbocharged LA V8 (in addition to the LPG fueled versions) was limited to just low volume Bristols and not applied to RWD Chryslers at the upper end of the range during that period (on top of an earlier LA V6 with a turbocharged variation).
     
  9. GLHS60

    GLHS60 Well-Known Member

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    With carb-Turbo V6-V8 combinations power is limited so GM took a chance on them.

    They were O.K. but nothing great, Chrysler and Ford didn't bother, concentrated on sturdy 4 cyls.

    Once EFI was perfected they sadly limited their V6-V8 power enhancement to superchargers.

    The SEFI 3.8 GN and 4.3 Syclone-Typhoon were GM exceptions, probably due to upcoming FWD .

    The reason is obvious but enthusiasts all want more, so easy with a Turbocharger.

    This is still true with the domestic manufacturers concerning V8's, but TT V6's are gaining popularity.

    I think V8 Engine architecture strength is in question or perhaps the power potential scares them.

    1,000 HP is easily attained with an EFI V8 of 3-400 cubic inches but they seem happy with 7-800 HP.

    Interesting to me is throughout history M-B used superchargers on all their performance models.

    After joining with Chrysler they switched to turbochargers, it appears to be more than coincidence??

    Personally I'm a huge LPG fan and sadly recently sold my factory propane K car station wagon.

    I'm down to one, a 1986 Chevy van that continues to amaze me with its propane benefits.

    I still prefer the ancient "propane carb" deal vs dual fuel or Electronic propane systems.

    The ancient system provides EFI driveability without any electronics or any fuel pump. BRILLIANT.

    What really surprises me is Ford not offering a turbocharged V8 in light of their E-B success.

    V8 Engine architecture strength or massive power too easily attained---or both??

    Europeans have small Turbocharged V8's, hopefully the domestics can't be very far behind!!

    Turbocharged approx 5.3L Hemi = 1.000 HP easy.

    Thanks
    Randy



    .
     
    #9 GLHS60, Feb 8, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2020
  10. Star Car

    Star Car Member

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    Not sure how early Chrysler could have implemented fuel-injection to the LA engines in order to make up for the short-fall in power as well as make it easier for turbocharged LA variants.

    Was not envisioning the turbocharged LA V6 / V8 engines making massive amounts of power, was thinking of early LA V8 turbo versions matching or slightly exceeding the 230-245 hp 5.2-5.9-litre Magnum V8s yet roughly slotting below the 3rd generation 340-345+ hp 5.7-litre Hemi V8.

    Essentially see the maximum output of the LA V8 turbos matching the 330-350 hp figures Bristol were quoting for their turbocharged V8 models without stepping on the toes of the early 400 hp Viper V10 or later 380-425 hp crate versions of the 5.9-litre Magnum V8.

    The potential of an LA V6 turbo would have been up to Chrysler, perhaps being able to match or exceed the later 230-245 hp 5.2-5.9 Magnum V8 akin to the 3.8 Buick V6 turbo / 280 hp 4.3 GM 90-degree V6 turbo. Especially since there was theoretical scope for an LA V6 to grow up to 4.2-litres.

    Speaking of alternative fuels such as LPG. With Chrysler contemplating dieselized / turbodiesel versions of the Slant-Six (and unbuilt Slant-Four) together with the work on the LPG LA V8s, did Chrysler investigate dieselized versions of the LA V8 similar to Perkins/Rover's Project Iceberg and Oldsmobile LF9 5.7-litre V8 diesel projects? Assuming of course whether there was scope in the design of the LA engines to run on diesel?
     

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