Hello, Allpar Forums member or visitor! If you were a member, you would not see this ad!
Register or log in at the top right of the page...
Discussion in 'Rumors and Speculation' started by Fast Eddie, Oct 18, 2017.
I've never seen someone call @redriderbob "Robert" before. I laughed out loud.
I've been called a lot worse.
As a fellow "Robert", it hit me close to home.
BTW - BobbiBigWheels was a nickname my GM came up for me 3 years ago. It stuck, and everyone at my work calls me Bobbi... but no other facet of my life.
I just witnessed someone who had money yesterday driving a new Maserati four-door. Despite people complaining about merging platforms Ghibli still an awesome design vehicle
That, should not be an issue. We have the cores. Just a matter of having the right people get access to them - and when.
Don't ask me how I know that.
Is there any way that dodge could re engineer the viper platform for next gen dodge vehicles to make them really competitive especially when it comes to handling and weight ??
They're using the giulia platform that they helped pay for. Bob also said that there will be another platform for teh next viper/8c/maserati mos likely
ok cool. You when the next gen viper will be coming ?
I think he said 2022 or later if it's good to go
The Viper/8C/Gran Tourismo will likely be based on the Giulia’s platform. Highly modified, and specialized for each vehicle.
A new Gran Tourismo is due 2019/2020, the Alfa a year later, the Viper a year later at the soonest. It likely wouldn’t be called Viper.
Yes, because the Viper just has to be a V10 only...
Viper is one of the few legacy (it's been almost 25 years...) names for Chrysler that has any equity. Why would they drop it just out of purism?
Did Corvette lose it mojo when it turned to Supercharged V8?
People are braising AMG 4-wheel drive now.
The next Viper, with a V10 or a supercharged V8, has only one job to do, to keep dominance.
From what I gather, they really couldn’t call it Viper because it will be aimed at a different enough purpose, that calling Viper would seem awkward. But? Who knows.
SRT does something really really really wicked in one year. This year it was Demon, and the FatCats. Then the next year, they sort of take the year off and they intro a run of the mill (for SRT) sort of car. Then, the next year they are back with something wicked.
I’d say 2018 will be a mild year for SRT. I mean seriously? Do we really expect them to top Demon so quickly? Maybe a fat fendered Charger of some type.
Then, in 2019, I expect them to come out swinging with the updated Hellcat for starters.
(In regard to the Corvette) I mean....... heat soak (admittedly it only really hurt the Z06, due to the fact that the Z06 was supposed to be a proper track weapon).
Jeep: "They better not make the new Wrangler too comfortable! Otherwise, it might lose its legendary Off-Road capability!"
New Ram 1500: "If it doesn't retain enough big rig styling it'll be just like all the other trucks!"
Viper losing its V10: "Meh."
I just don't get the indifference about whether the Viper has a V10 or not considering how everyone would blow a gasket if the Jeep Wrangler lost half of its capability to have better on-road comfort. Or if Ram got rid of the big rig styling for good.
The Off-Road capability of Jeep is a defining factor for the brand. The big rig styling of Ram has become a defining factor for their trucks. The V10 in the Viper is one of the defining factors in the car.
Ram could get rid of big rig styling for the sake of increased aerodynamics yet tons of people here would shout "blasphemy" and "sacrilege" if they did that. Probably stating that "Ram now has 'me too' styling. It's lost its originality." Jeep could make the Wrangler way more comfortable on-road at the expense of off-road capability and people would say "Jeep has forgotten who it is! They've ruined the Wrangler!"
I completely understand that the name Viper has equity. It also has meaning though. In the same way Jeep does. If you mess with that meaning too much, the value in that meaning is lost. Do you tempt fate and go ahead and slap the Viper name on a car that strays too far from that meaning? Or do you let the name (and the car) die with whatever dignity it had intact and risk losing a legend. It's a tough question IMHO. Ford nearly did this with the FWD Mustang in the 90's (the car that ended up becoming the Ford Probe). I don't know how badly this would've hurt the Mustang, but if the Mustang II didn't kill the Mustang name a FWD Mustang might've actually been able to do it.
I get that even as pure as the Viper is, it needs to evolve to some degree. There's no reason to "destroy" what the name has come to mean though. I don't mean to sound like a stick in the mud that constantly complains about how "everything was better in the olden days." What I mean to convey is that playing with legends is risky business. Jeep did a fantastic job evolving the JL Wrangler. That's how you evolve a legend, if we were to get a new Viper, I would hope as much care would be taken with evolving the next Viper (even though the next car has a low likelihood of being called "Viper.")
The Mustang is iconic mostly in the name. The 911 is iconic due to shape. IMHO the Viper is iconic due to shape, name and engine. Name one other Sports/Supercar with a V10 made in America (kit cars and tuners don't count). Having a Viper V10 in a Saab or a classic Charger is cool, but a V10 in the Viper is just so right. The name "Viper" being slapped on a "take no prisoners" type of car? So right. Naming a curvy car after a curvy reptile? So. Darn. Right.
Can Dodge keep the current V10 going? Definitely not if they want to get more power out of the engine whilst meeting emissions. Do they have enough "disposable" money to spend on making a new V10? I highly doubt it. It's not like there hasn't been a V8 Viper before though. The original test car (with the 360 LA V8 before it got two extra cylinders added on). A racing team had to run a V8 Viper due to regulations only imposed on the Viper.
Those examples aren't ones the general public know though (a small amount might know at best). For most people, Viper mostly (not solely) means V10. In the same way, that Jeep means Off-Road. A V8 "Viper" might still be raw, unfiltered, fast, gorgeous and "American." But without the V10, is it a Viper?
It's like watching a movie at home. There may indeed be some perks, but it's not the same as watching the movie at a theater. Or Woodward Ave without the drag racing, or restaurant "turn around" shows without Gorden Ramsey cursing like a sailor, or America's Funniest Home Videos without Tom Bergeron and so on and so forth. It may be good, but it won't be the same.
Jeep’s off road capability and Ram’s styling don’t limit their models in the same way that the Viper would be limited if it had to have a V10. The new platform may not accommodate a V10, so the cost to re-engineer that and release a new V10 would be substantial. Not to mention the other drawbacks: size, emissions, etc.
There are other ways to make the Viper feel “raw” aside from having a V10.
I can agree on Jeep a bit, but Ram can't reduce the big rig styling too much for better aerodynamics. If they did, everyone would go ballistic (in fact a lot of people were saying that early on). I do feel that limits them a little bit.
I never said it wouldn't be expensive to make a new V10. Quite the opposite actually. I doubt FCA would want to spend their (current) funds on making a new V10. Although, I don't think the engine itself is the limiting factor (for the reason of expensive far out-weighing feasibility). Speaking of feasibility...
The current Hemi is too tall and wide to fit in the current (now dead) Viper. I wouldn't really worry about a V10 not fitting (as long as they could keep the new V10 low). Seeing as FCA is fairly unlikely to make a new V10 though, I can see how fitting a V10 later on (when the chassis is already finalized) would be a problem. With that being said, I don't even know how much work is currently being put into the new sports car chassis. If they've even started. Then one should probably take into consideration the potential profit the new 1500, Wrangler, Stelvio (potentially), Pacifica Hybrid, Giulia (potentially), updated HD Rams, New Journey replacement and other products will hopefully bring in. Even the next-gen large cars are coming before the new sportscars.
Emissions definitely are a problem. Which makes me increasingly surprised how Ferrari managed to get some 800 HP out of the Superfast without turbo or supercharging it. Sure it has a smaller engine, but if Dodge went to a 7 liter (7.2 would be my preference) V10, could Dodge pull it off too?
I never said you couldn't make a "Viper" raw without the V10. Whether it would still be a "Viper" or not is really my question. I don't want to sound like those people who whine how the PF Generation Dart ruined the name because it's "nothing like the original" (simply because they only remember the Hemi Super Stock and not the compact econobox before it) and that it "should've had a V8."
The difference is that Dodge didn't "ruin" the Dart name by making it an economy car (whether they ruined it through execution is a discussion going on in another thread I think). The Old Dart is the same as the New Dart (excluding trunk size, engine and other obvious factors).
When you get a car that's held to basically the same concept for 25 years, the name gets associated with that concept, once you decide to change the concept of the car (but keep the name), you end up messing with that association. Can you still retain enough of the old association in the new car? Or do end up tainting the name by going completely (or nearly completely) against what it came to stand for? If Lamborghini were to make their big Lambos (cars like the Miura, Countach, Diablo, Murcielago and Aventador) without the signature V12 to go along with it, would it still be a big Lamborghini? Or just a fast one without one of the biggest identifiers of a flagship Lamborghini? The V12 was one of the defining part of the biggest, baddest Lamborghinis. It's like those colored slides at water parks. The purple one (for the one I go to) is the signifier that you're about to be scared poopless (I wasn't ready..... lord knows I wasn't ready). The V12 in a flagship Lamborghini is like that. You have no idea what you've talked yourself into until you're wishing Jesus would take the doggone wheel and save your sorry butt from the "car guy" version of what happened at the end of Thor: Ragnarok.
Granted, I doubt most Lamborghini buyers (cough Rich people who can't handle the car cough) would really care. However, the internet would throw a tantrum. Much like how the internet threw a tantrum when Porsche said they wouldn't offer a manual in the 991.1 generation 911 GT3 RS (or was it the regular GT3...). The result? The 911 R. The GT3 RS was the purest of the pure 911s for track day enthusiasts. Then Porsche decided to get rid of the manual transmission just for lap speed. For the purists, it was never about the speed. It was about the enjoyment. The feeling. Porsche took some of that away by only offering the car with an automatic. They haven't ruined the car (or tainted the name), it has certainly annoyed more than a few raging owners though.
Or like how Chevrolet put a supercharger on the Z06 (and then didn't add the cooling necessary to go along with the supercharging). For many Corvette owners, the Z06 was the track day Vette in the lineup. They ruined that and had to put the Grand Sport in its place because the supercharger caused heat soak. The Grand Sport has all the Z06 goodies except without the supercharger (essentially making the Z06 a sort of stop-gap between the GS and the ZR1 IMHO). Of course there are other ways of making a "Viper" raw without the V10. However, the V10 is one of the biggest identifiers of the car. I can't even begin to explain how hard it is to convey why taking the V10 away from the Viper is a really risky thing to do. Because the logic behind why it doesn't matter is so darn sound.
I'll absolutely admit it. It's hard to make an argument against why you shouldn't just slap the name "Viper" on another new sports car and be done with it. Slapping the "911" name on a front-engined car is probably the best example someone could ever give.
There's been Mid-Engined Vettes (all concepts but it's not a new and totally blasphemous idea). It wouldn't be like that. Perhaps another example would be Mazda putting anything but a rotary in an RX-whatever. The Rotary (among other things) is what made those cars unique. Sure, they had problems. They were so different that die-hards don't really care though (the ones who aren't swapping in LS motors and complaining about other RX owners who are swapping LS motors haha).
I think the main thing is that the Viper name isn’t being attatched to the new car AFAIK. I do think that a lot of people would get annoyed if it wasn’t a V10, but that kind of backward thinking is what causes vehicles to become stale in the first place.
Look at the 300. Nobody wants it to lose its current styling, but that has made it become dated while they try to figure out what to do with it to please everyone.
Yeah you're right. I've haven't seen anything about the Viper name being attached to the new car either (which makes me curious what name they might be considering, if they've even gotten that far).
Even though the design of the 300 isn't new by any stretch of the imagination, the design is still good looking (even after all these years). I think what's really hurting the 300 is the lack of marketing, rather than the not quite new styling. It's dated sure, but it's aged pretty well IMO. If Chrysler could keep the 300 on the consumer's radar by putting more marketing towards it then that would help it a bit.
I don't think a Viper with a new (keyword) V10 would be stale. If it had the Gen 5 Viper V10 though? Yeah, it probably (if not definitely) would be stale. I highly suspect Dodge can't get anything more from the current (now dead) V10. The next car would just have the same power output as the previous car. And no one wants that. Even just the idea of Dodge making a new V10 is rather absurd though (for reasons we've both already touched on). I mean, Lamborghini has put a V12 in their flagship supercars thus far and it hasn't gotten stale yet (although, I'm pretty sure we'll be getting a new V12 for the Aventador sucessor).
If the new car did have the name "Viper" and didn't have a V10, I fear it would just live in the shadow of the Viper that came before it. Not really "measuring up" to the legacy of the car before. Like a lackluster (not necessairly bad) sequel. Enjoyable, but without the magic the movies before it had (like the F&F franchise). People have already came to this conclusion with the current NSX (and fear the Supra might end up the same way).
I don't want the car to be held back by what it's come to mean. Nor I want the next car to become the "bad" sequel of the bunch either. Look at Baby Driver for instance. Baby Driver is the perfect antidote to the F&F franchise. It kept the cars whilst keeping the action exciting. F&F seems to have become just another Die Hard duplicate with more car related heists and too many over the top stunts. Rather than being about Street Racing (and whatever else people say F&F was orginally about).
Of course, given that they're not likely to continue the Viper name from what we've seen (or haven't seen), looks like I don't have to worry about it too much..... sorry for slightly derailing the thread by not mentioning the Challenger, Charger or 300 enough in my comments.
While I personally wouldn't care if a non-V10 car was called the Viper, I can see why some would. As long as it had the same attitude as the previous Viper it would be fine. I think the new one will likely be more tame though with an automatic transmission.
I agree with this...I mean GM still has dreams of making a mid engine Corvette, is it still blasphemous to call a mid engine Corvette a "Corvette" because there has never previously been a mid-engine Corvette?
A V8 Viper doesn't bother me at all.