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Civil COVID-19 Discussion

Discussion in 'Off Topic But Still Civil' started by Ryan, Apr 23, 2020.

  1. Dave Z

    Dave Z It's me, Dave
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    There are rules. When we do a drive-by past the veterans' home, they have a rather silly combination of “windows up and masks on” - but OK, that's one minute. They also want our cars to be decorated with flags but since I don't know which side they'll see, I'll do the antenna flag...

    My '74 is driverless when I put it into neutral and forget to set the brake!

    (Which I've done, though it was when I was a kid; also, the car-dealer body shop did that with my once-beautiful and nearly-new 1994 Plymouth Sundance. They had it on a hill. It's a stickshift.)
     
  2. Dave Z

    Dave Z It's me, Dave
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    Yet another study shows hydroxychloroquine doesn't work against Covid-19 - CNN (at https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/11/health/hydroxychloroquine-doesnt-work-coronavirus/index.html )

    “A new study -- the largest of its kind -- shows that hydroxychloroquine, ... does not work against Covid-19 and could cause heart problems. The study was published Monday in the Journal of the American Medical Association. It follows a study published Thursday in the New England Journal of Medicine that also showed the drug doesn't fight the virus.”

    “In the most recent study, researchers at the University at Albany looked at 1,438 patients with coronavirus who were admitted to 25 New York City area hospitals. After statistical adjustments, the death rate for patients taking hydroxychloroquine was similar to those who did not take the drug. The death rate for those taking hydroxychloroquine plus the antibiotic azithromycin, was also similar.
    However, the patients who took the drug combination were more than twice as likely to suffer cardiac arrest during the course of the study. Heart issues are a known side effect of hydroxychloroquine.”

    Specifically, 735 patients got both drugs, 271 got malaria drug, 211 got antibiotic, and 221 got neither. I am guessing the experimenters thought that the combination of drugs would work based on how many people got both vs the number getting neither.

    Every scientific study comes up with the same results. I guess there are a lot of doctors around the world faking the results?

    BTW, here's the difference between a bad study and a good one:

    In a bad study, somebody prescribes a drug to 25 patients for something with a roughly 4% death rate. One patient is eliminated because they die and therefore can't be in the study any more. Success is proclaimed since none of the others died.

    In a bad study, a TV show host says a friend took the drug and got better and therefore everyone will.

    In a good study, to quote CNN, “In the clinical trials, coronavirus patients are randomly assigned to take the drugs or to take placebos, which have no effect, and then the death rates between the two groups will compared. These types of studies are considered the most reliable.”

    I might add that these studies are nearly always double blind which means the experimenters do not know who is in which group any more than the patients do. Someone else codes the drugs and keeps the books. (As seen on a popular TV hospital show whose name I forget now, this last season.)

    With that, I hereby withdraw from any further argument on this topic.
     
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  3. dana44

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    Not here to argue, but there is another side of the story that doesn't go with the mainstream fears. Doctors are reporting on the news that they are having very positive results administering hydroxychloroquine to patients with early signs and testing positive,as in more than one hundred cases in a couple of them, and there are more than enough actual patients that have gone on the news to say that it worked for them. Does it work one hundred percent of the time? No, I imagine there are some that have died anyway, but I have yet to see a doctor or a report that said they gave it to even a dozen patients and it failed every time. That's what I am saying.
     
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  4. Zagnut27

    Zagnut27 Jeepaholic

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    Look folks, as of right now, there is not one single study that shows that hydroxychloroquine is beneficial. Anecdotal reports, including for patients where it was given early on, don’t tell us much other than the person was sick & they were given a drug and they had X outcome. They don’t show a statistical significance of efficacy, safety, or mortality. All the drug trials to date that have been done have shown no statistical significance in giving hydroxychloroquine vs not giving it, in fact some have shown a higher mortality with giving the hydroxychloroquine. There are documented risks with giving the medication, and I posted extensively on those risks in previous posts and threads.

    There are still some trials being done to see if it can be beneficial as a prophylactic. We’lll see on those.

    In conducting medical research, controlled studies are key in order to demonstrate safety & efficacy. Simply prescribing a medication to patients to see if it works is not informative as it doesn’t evaluate the medication vs giving a different medication vs not giving a medication. Especially early on with this virus because the symptoms can range from being very mild (or none) to full respiratory failure and demise. If you just give a med, and they survive....did they survive because they got the med or did they survive because they only had mild symptoms to begin with? Without a controlled study, you have no idea.

    The body of evidence in studies has shown the medication does not help, and that it does carry significant risks of mortality. If someone has a link to a study that shows otherwise, please post it. Otherwise this is all I’m going to say on this. It’s a waste of breath at this point.
     
  5. Dave Z

    Dave Z It's me, Dave
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    Sorry, I know I said I wouldn't respond, but...

    I can give nearly ANY treatment to 20 people and expect no deaths. You could have prayed for them. You could have painted their toenails blue. It's meaningless. The death rate is roughly 4%. That means if you have 25 people, at random, you would expect maybe 1 death. If you give something to 20 people at random you would not expect any of them to die, with a 4% death rate.

    But now let's look at a serious study. Not that you haven't completely ignored the actual real scientific studies with more than 20 people posted earlier:

    https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31180-6/fulltext

    96,000 patients. 671 hospitals.

    To quote ArsTechnica: “Of the patients, nearly 15,000 had received one of four treatments involving one of the drugs—1,868 received chloroquine, 3,783 received chloroquine with a macrolide antibiotic (such as azithromycin), 3,016 received hydroxychloroquine, and 6,221 received hydroxychloroquine with a macrolide. Over 81,000 other hospitalized COVID-19 patients in the study did not receive any of these regimens and were considered a control group.”

    • COVID-19 patients given hydroxychloroquine alone had a 34-percent increased risk of dying in the hospital and a 137-percent increased risk of developing a serious arrhythmia.
    • Those given hydroxychloroquine with a macrolide had a 45-percent increased risk of dying in the hospital and a 411-percent increased risk of developing a serious arrhythmia.
    • Those given chloroquine had a 37-percent increased risk of dying in the hospital and a 256-percent increased risk of developing a serious arrhythmia.
    • Those given chloroquine and a macrolide had a 37-percent increased risk of dying in the hospital and a 301-percent increased risk of developing a serious arrhythmia.
    The researchers wrote:

    In this large multinational real-world analysis, we did not observe any benefit of hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine (when used alone or in combination with a macrolide) on in-hospital outcomes, when initiated early after diagnosis of COVID-19. Each of the drug regimens of chloroquine or hydroxychloroquine alone or in combination with a macrolide was associated with an increased hazard for clinically significant occurrence of ventricular arrhythmias and increased risk of in-hospital death with COVID-19.

    This is not talking about what color to paint the car. This is people’s lives being lost because Dr. Oz and a politician can't shut their mouths about stuff they don't understand.
     
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  6. freshforged

    freshforged Well-Known Member

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    Here’s the problem—you’ve bought into the notion that anyone who doesn’t agree with your Pollyanna outlook is somehow “living in fear”. I can tell you I’m not living in fear, but I won’t put my family in needless jeopardy either. Facts matter and trying to shame facts into submission is a fool’s errand. No matter how much you want it to be so, correlation doesn’t not equate with causation, as Dave just pointed out. Until you have actual facts you bring nothing to this “discussion.”
     
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  7. 06PTElectricBlue

    06PTElectricBlue Active Member

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    President Trump has ordered flags at half-staff for the next 3 days, not only in honor of Memorial Day but also to honor coronavirus victims.

    [​IMG]
     
  8. 06PTElectricBlue

    06PTElectricBlue Active Member

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    I work at a shop at the DFW International Airport. Our upper-management came out with some info yesterday that due to the virus, the sales that our shop generates is down 80%. But because we are an essential business being at the airport, at least the 18 employees in our shop all still have our jobs. ;)

    But for an example of how much airline travel is down, this is one of several employee parking lots at the airport. Pre-covid, at any given time, this lot would be at least 3/4 full of employee vehicles. It looks like a ghost town now as according to the news, airline travel is down 88% over last year.

    [​IMG]

    Some airline travel many never come back as some companies may realize that they can conduct business meetings just fine remotely and therefore people don't need to travel for those meetings.

    This is going to take our country a long time to recover from this virus. :(
     
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  9. wtxiceman

    wtxiceman Well-Known Member

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    Fact is they were trying it in December 2019. Why??

    Does anybody have the miracle cure yet??

    There is a whole list of drugs already FDA approved for uses that have since been pulled from the shelves.

    Nobody is forcing you or your family to take anything so i think your attack here is unwarranted.
     
  10. Zagnut27

    Zagnut27 Jeepaholic

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    As drugs are given to a population over time, new or different side effects can be discovered. The medical community monitors side effects of medications and treatments, and studies can be done to evaluate safety and efficacy as time goes on especially if new side effects are popping up. It's not a static process where a medication is approved by the FDA and then that's it. Over time, it can be reevaluated and pulled from the market if it is warranted.

    Often times, a drug is designed for a specific, narrow purpose and trouble arises when docs prescribe the medication for something other than it's intended purpose or that they are not performing the required monitoring of the patient's lab work and diagnostic studies to ensure compliance with safety measures.

    All drugs can be dangerous if used improperly. Oxygen can kill you if used improperly. Drugs aren't candy, and shouldn't be treated as such.
     
  11. wtxiceman

    wtxiceman Well-Known Member

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    So you are saying these drugs were pulled because they were used improperly?
     
  12. Zagnut27

    Zagnut27 Jeepaholic

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    I didn't read the list, I'm speaking from knowledge of different medications that have been relabeled, warnings issued, or ultimately pulled from the market. In addition, some physicians have gotten into trouble for using medications off-label. It's not illegal to do, however if you get your patient sick (or worse by doing so) you're probably going to be sued at the very least.

    Most medications are safe if used as directed, and with any recommended monitoring. Some meds end up being dangerous. It's the nature of all things.
     
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  13. Zagnut27

    Zagnut27 Jeepaholic

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  14. 77 Monaco Brougham

    77 Monaco Brougham Active Member

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    And...How many of those 8 times did you use Hydrochloroquine to treat Covid?

    "NONE", you say?...

    I rest my case!
     
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  15. dana44

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    My point is, the only side effect I and everyone else on a 300+ crew aboard the ship got the hershey squirts one time, and one time only, every time we took the stuff. We didn't have (and the list of precautions doesn't list) heart arrhythmia concerns to this day, etc., and that is after more than fifty years of production, so even the doctors are questioning how this came about (just repeating what doctors are saying themselves). I guess I am just a little tired of every thing the President says is garbage, backed up by a documented 92+percent of what he says as negative treatment, and that if something is said otherwise is garbage, I eventually get a little upset with the lemmings (professional or otherwise, for those that are, we all have our personal and taught beliefs to keep until we have an epiphany of some sort).
     
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  16. Zagnut27

    Zagnut27 Jeepaholic

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    Here is a link to an article from the JAMA network that illustrates the risk from Hydroxychloroquine for QT prolongation for patients receiving treatment from Covid 19. Patients in the hospital who are being treated for Covid 19 may be on several other medications that also prolong the QT interval, thereby increasing the risk for concurrent administration. Hydroxychloroquine is similar to the antiarrhythmic medication Quinidine, which is a medication that we use frequently to treat arrhythmias, and also requires close monitoring.

    QT Interval Prolongation and Hydroxychloroquine and Azithromycin in Hospitalized Patients With COVID-19 (at https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2765631 )

    Of note, some are genetically predisposed to have a congenital prolonging of the QT interval which can put them at risk for sudden cardiac death. For others, a prolonged QT can be instigated by medications or certain medical conditions. Classes of medications that can prolong the QT are antiarrhythmics, anti-emetics, diabetes medications, some diuretics, some antipsychotics, some antibiotics and antifungals, some opioids...not an all-encompassing list by any means, but you can see it includes a lot of different medications, and the results can be cumulative when these drugs are used together.

    If one received hydroxychloroquine as a treatment previously, it offers no indication of safety for usage later in life. As we get older, we become more at risk for developing a prolonged QT. The fact that one was never aware of the possibility of a prolonged QT with certain medications does not negate the risk, but in fact speaks to the fact that they were not informed of the risk. Not to mention that not all physicians are aware of the problem, or they fail to do proper monitoring. The fact that it is a relatively old drug is irrelevant.

    I have seen personally the effects of QT prolongation. Most frequently it is from usage of an antiarrhythmic drug called dofetilide (Tikosyn). When we initiate it in the hospital, a baseline EKG must be done prior to the first dose, and an EKG is done 2 hours after each dose for 5 doses. With the EKG, the corrected QT (QTc) is measured. If the QTc is prolonged by a certain amount after a dose, the dose may be lowered or the drug is discontinued if the prolongation is severe. I recall one particular instance where a patient's QTc went from 480 ms to over 600 ms after one dose. One of the older cardiologists who happened to be present when we were doing the calculation responded, "holy sh-t!". And yes, I have seen patients go into ventricular tachycardia/torsades because of a prolonged QT.

    So yes, QT prolongation is a real thing. Yes, we've known about it for a long time. No, apparently the public isn't very aware of the risk. And yes, Covid patients are very much at risk because of the medications they are on both prior to being sick, and also what is being used to treat them in the hospital. Also, Covid can cause irritation and damage to the heart itself, thereby making it predisposed to medication-induced arrhythmias as well.
     
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  17. wtxiceman

    wtxiceman Well-Known Member

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    Disbarred lawyers and community organizers seem to do a better job.:rolleyes:
     
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  18. Ryan

    Ryan Moderator
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    If they take public health seriously, then yes, but the bar for doing a “good job” in that area has been placed so low now that it’s really a trivial discussion.
     
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  19. Zagnut27

    Zagnut27 Jeepaholic

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    Here is the drug information page for hydroxychloroquine from the Prescriber’s Digital Reference (formerly the Physicians Desk Reference). Take note of the sections for adverse reactions, drug interactions, and contraindications and precautions as well as dosages and indications. It’s a lot of info for sure, but it is rather enlightening when considering the potential drug interactions, side effects and adverse events.

    https://m.pdr.net/Mobile/Pages/drug-summary/Plaquenil-hydroxychloroquine-sulfate-1911
     
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