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Civil COVID-19 Discussion

Discussion in 'Off Topic But Still Civil' started by Ryan, Apr 23, 2020.

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  1. wtxiceman

    wtxiceman Well-Known Member

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    Well, thats your opinion. I assume we are all entitled to one here?
     
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  2. Dave Z

    Dave Z It's me, Dave
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    There is a difference between having an opinion and denying reality.
     
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  3. Dave Z

    Dave Z It's me, Dave
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    Somewhere on Allpar there was some discussion about “waiting for lawyers to start suing business for spreading the disease.” Can't find it now. My response was that this would only happen if someone knew they had covid-19 and broke the physical-distancing laws or watered-down CDC guidelines.

    Here's the first.

    Missouri hairstylist with coronavirus worked while symptomatic - CNN (at https://www.cnn.com/2020/05/23/us/missouri-hairstylist-coronavirus-trnd/index.html )

    “A hairstylist with coronavirus worked for eight days this month while symptomatic, exposing as many as 91 customers and coworkers in Missouri, health officials said.”

    PS> While it is CNN, I am positive you will be able to verify in local newspapers with appropriate conservative credentials, if you wish.
     
  4. 06PTElectricBlue

    06PTElectricBlue Active Member

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    It was my post #38 in this thread:

    Saw something quite concerning at the local dealer today! (at https://www.allpar.com/forums/threads/saw-something-quite-concerning-at-the-local-dealer-today.225859/page-2#post-1085185893 )

     
  5. Zagnut27

    Zagnut27 Jeepaholic

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    I love how they said that the stylist kept “impeccable” records so it’ll make contact tracing much easier. That’s great! They kept impeccable records on all the people that they potentially gave a death sentence to.
     
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  6. freshforged

    freshforged Well-Known Member

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    1. Social distancing and the Stay at Home order works—in fact it’s the only thing that we know works right now. See point 2.
    2. No, see point 1.
    3. Those drugs have not proven effective and have deadly side effects, see point 1.
    4. I am an essential worker—I am out there everyday making sure schoolage kids have enough food to get by. My wife is an essential worker making sure the skeleton crew at her business headquarters is running so you can get your financials taken care of. People who endanger others by refusing to maintain social distancing are putting my wife and I, and our daughter, and my mother, and hundreds of friends and family who are at exceptional risk from C19 are an immediate threat to me and mine.
    5. Taking medication that doesn’t work is likely to give patients an unfounded sense of invulnerability which will cause them to act in unsafe ways—this also needlessly increases the risks to those WHO DONT HAVE A F’N CHOICE.
    6. Tell me again how any of my posts are unwarranted.
     
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  7. wtxiceman

    wtxiceman Well-Known Member

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    Guess what, you aren't the only essential person working

    And if you would have read my post i said your attack that you made was unwarranted.

    Not once was anyone forcing you to take any medication.

    Have a good day:rolleyes:
     
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  8. Dave Z

    Dave Z It's me, Dave
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    I do not believe you read freshforged's post before insulting its writer. Please read it again.
     
  9. 06PTElectricBlue

    06PTElectricBlue Active Member

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    And in the meantime, until they successfully contact and notify all 91 potential victims, they in turn could already possibly be spreading the virus to others that they casually come into contact with, without even knowing it. :eek:

    I got a haircut today, and they did not take my contact info should they need to get in touch with me about a possible exposure. o_O

    So if something happened at that shop, the only way I would know is if the issue makes the local news, and I happen to hear the story. ;)
     
    #489 06PTElectricBlue, May 23, 2020
    Last edited: May 23, 2020
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  10. Zagnut27

    Zagnut27 Jeepaholic

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    That’s the sad part about all of this. We say things like, “we need to do a lot of testing!” Well, we don’t have the supply chain issues figured out to mass produce massive numbers of test kits, especially since components are made overseas and aren’t easily obtainable during a pandemic. “Oh we need proper PPE for all our front line workers and essential personnel”. Once again, a lot of this stuff is made overseas and not easily obtainable during a pandemic. “We need to do meticulous contact tracing and isolating/quarantining”. We have not trained enough people yet to do that, and have not developed a standardized plan to help businesses with tracing if a positive case is found.

    Just a few examples, but over all we’ve as a nation had a terrible reaction to this pandemic, and that starts with coordination at the federal level and goes right down to the community level. A coordinated response is necessary, but what we’ve had is basically a free for all with lots of competing interests. We better be learning the right lessons from this, but unfortunately a lot of people are getting sick and a lot are dying while we collectively get our sh-t together. The federal government has run at least 5 separate pandemic simulations going back to 2001, so there is really no excuse for this. Reactive and not proactive, SNAFU as usual.

    People want to make this political, and I understand that. But what it boils down to is whether, as a nation, have we responded appropriately to this crisis. The answer to that is no, we have not. We need to do better. But when the crisis finally peters out, will the funding, desire, and will power remain to put in place (for the long run) the infrastructure and command & control structure to deal with the next pandemic. Because there will be a next one. Within the past 15 years we’ve had H1N1 (same type of virus as the 1918 Spanish flu which was also a H1N1), SARS, MERS, Ebola (not a pandemic, but extremely serious outbreak that made it to the US) and now SARS-Cov-2. Money for research and development of vaccines and medications dried up after each one of those crises passed. Will this time be different?
     
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  11. page2171

    page2171 Well-Known Member

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    And this was a much better place when that was enforced.
     
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  12. DC-93

    DC-93 Well-Known Member

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    96,000 patient study.

    Large study finds hydroxychloroquine COVID-19 treatments linked to greater risk of death and heart arrhythmia (at https://www.wxyz.com/news/coronavirus/large-study-finds-hydroxychloroquine-covid-19-treatments-linked-to-greater-risk-of-death-and-heart-arrhythmia )
    Our Governor did this in March... Been that way since.
     
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  13. Zagnut27

    Zagnut27 Jeepaholic

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    Politics is a hot button issue, and will continue to be so for the conceivable future. I’m an independent and I don’t subscribe to any political party, and on a site like this I’m not going to get into endless political debates because it serves no useful purpose...just multiple people talking past each other.

    What I strongly disagree with is injecting politics into medical and healthcare decisions, and assessments on whether certain medications and treatments are appropriate. Medical research doesn’t work that way. Ethical considerations, drug and treatment trials with strict protocols and evaluations, evidence-based and science-based practices, protocols for monitoring efficacy and safety, infection control protocols, etc.

    I work for a major teaching health system, attached to a major Ivy League university. We do tremendous amounts of studies and research, and I’ve been able to learn from and participate in a lot over the years. We did trials for Abciximab (Reopro) and Eptifibatide (Integrillin)...both blood thinners we were investigating for use with acute coronary syndrome (ACS), Entresto...a heart failure combination drug, Natrecor...a heart failure drug. We’ve done investigational studies for procedures like Watchman, transcutaneous aortic and mitral valve replacement. We also did early trials with an artificial heart, as well as the Heartmate 2 & 3 and Heartware ventricular assist devices (VAD’s). Currently we are conducting trials for hydroxychloroquine (completed I believe, except for prophylactic for healthcare workers) and Remdesivir (also concluded I believe)....waiting on final reports...though I know what they show (can’t share). The take home here, is I’m well versed and experienced in how proper research and studies are done, as I’ve done them myself.

    We do extensive monitoring for different medications that prolong the QT because our patient population is on a lot of meds that can cause arrhythmias, especially when used together. Anti arrhythmic meds like Quinidine (related to hydroxychloroquine) and Dofetilde (Tikosyn) require close monitoring because of the real potential to put the patient into a lethal arrhythmia. We do EKG’s like they’re free.

    We do what we do because it’s in the best interests of our patients. Everything. Politics doesn’t enter into it. We would never advocate or deny a medication or treatment for political reasons. I would.never do that here either. So much of what we do involves giving patients the best, most accurate information available in order to make an informed decision about their care. And we continually do research and studies to refine that so that we can try to always be giving the best care and information possible. I obviously can’t speak for everyone in the healthcare community, but I can for my facility and for myself. My patients lives depend upon it.

    If I share information here, it’s because it’s the best available I have, not because it backs up a certain point of view. And I’m continually do my own research and staying as up to date as I can for myself personally and professionally.
     
    #493 Zagnut27, May 23, 2020
    Last edited: May 23, 2020
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  14. Ryan

    Ryan Moderator
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    I think the saddest part of this discussion is that you can’t point out verifiable, scientific studies that disprove claims being made without being accused of being politically motivated.
     
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  15. Dave Z

    Dave Z It's me, Dave
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    People who live in a fantasy world appear to hate people who have to live in reality.
     
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  16. freshforged

    freshforged Well-Known Member

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    There is no way to make a critical assessment of our nations response to the Covid-19 pandemic without involving politics, especially when so much of the political bandwidth has gone into spreading disinformation and actively hamstringing the medical communities ability to thwart the spread of the virus.
     
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  17. dana44

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    I can agree with this, whereas some see the previous eight year administration as building up the country and society as the greatest stepping stone set up for the orange man. Others see it as eight years of the previous administration putting restrictions on things, picking winners and losers, preventing the free market from growing and advancing, and the current administration removing those restrictions, taking a step back and allowing the free market to grow and prosper. Because of these two views, and the twist of personal opinion that slants things in such a way as to upset the other person's view, a simple other side of the equation is sometimes needed to balance the perception.
    Can there be two sides of reality and the truth? I guess that depends on which way you look at it.
    I'm more than sure this one will get be a negative point from some narrator, but it had to be said.
     
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  18. page2171

    page2171 Well-Known Member

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    The problem is that everyone's reality is different. If you live in the New York/New Jersey area where half of the country's COVID deaths are, COVID seems really, really bad. If you live somewhere that has very few COVID cases, your viewpoint is likely very different.
     
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  19. Zagnut27

    Zagnut27 Jeepaholic

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    Yes, it becomes difficult to say the least to give objective criticisms of current responses and situations without someone dismissing it as some sort of political attack. When you’re seeing situations first hand, experiencing firsthand the critical shortages of PPE and medications. When you’ve dealt with personally all of the relevant federal and state agencies, and have been personally involved with the logistics of running health-system wide responses to emergencies and the acquisition process for obtaining necessary technology and equipment.

    And then some random person on the internet tells you that you’re a sheep or lemming because you don’t subscribe to their irrational, wrong-headed nonsense that’s derived solely from their limited personal experience or their ability to Google a topic.
     
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  20. Zagnut27

    Zagnut27 Jeepaholic

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    Covid 19 IS really bad, not “seems to be”. If a community hasn’t been hit hard by it, it does not mean that it can’t, only that it hasn’t yet. But for anyone who has seen it firsthand, and experienced the difficulties with treating these patients, and experienced the calling of a code after you worked on them for a long time, and experienced the fear of bringing it home to your own family, and the aftermath for the ones who do survive after weeks on a ventilator who now cannot walk, have trach’s, have feeding tubes, etc....we who actually KNOW, know that it is terrible. And if you haven’t come to know it personally, as we have, you should consider yourself extremely lucky.
     
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