Hello, Allpar Forums member or visitor! If you were a member, you would not see this ad!

Register or log in at the top right of the page...

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

evap system woes....2003 4.7

Discussion in 'Dakota, 1998-2013 Durango and Aspen' started by GaryH, May 2, 2016.

  1. GaryH

    GaryH New Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2016
    Messages:
    4
    Likes:
    0
    Its emissions time again. Ive been driving with the P0440 for ever....somehow got it through a couple years ago after fixing a few hoses, a reset and a bit of driving. (of course it came back a month later)
    Ive researched drive cycles and all that. This time around, this is how it is acting:
    It was throwing the code within just a few miles of a reset....didnt care until emissions came around again. I did find that filling the tank and resetting let me get alot more miles on it before the light came on.......

    Went through the hoses again....re did some of the ones I did a couple years ago, found a few more. I seem to have made an improvement now, because now regardless of whats in the tank, a reset will give me a good while....hell we even got about 600 miles on it one weekend that we went away on vacation..thought that was that...but even though this was a lot of miles, it was not alot of drive cycles......perhaps only 1 or 2 eight hour cool downs, etc. Point is, the Monday we got back, I was gonna take it to the testing station at lunch time, and the damn light came on again.

    Now, Ive had it come on after reset anywhere from 60 to 100 miles in general, again it seems to depend more on the number of drive cycles. I read somewhere that the Evap system is the last to test itself after all other ready monitors are set.

    So Im torn on trying to find a way to sneak it through, or what else I can do to actually fix it.

    I had replaced the purge valve when we first bought the car about 4 years ago.....Also, when Im under the car, pressing on the gas tank makes a kind of whistly, wheezy air noise...then letting off, it sort of breathes back in....so I wonder if its leaking around the fuel pump. (Ive replaced the fuel pump on this thing twice...dropping the tank is no problem...but I THINK last time the new gasket was really thick and a pain to get on and I think I used the old gasket...) Now, of course, not even MOPAR sells the damn gasket! it says discontinued. Dont wanna buy another pump just to get a gasket! Though about gobbing it up with some sort of sealant but not sure what would be most fuel resistant.

    Then, I thought about buying a code reader that has the ready monitor indicators on it....and trying to see if theres some magic time zone when all the ready monitors except the evap are set...(Maryland is an all but 1 state--meaning that it will pass if only 1 ready monitor is not set) Most states are all but 2.

    Then there is the cigar in a bucket ghetto smoke test...Id have to buy a compressor though. And, no a professional mechanic is out of the question. Even if I had the money, which I dont.

    Really just venting....like my gas vapors apparently are. Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated!
     
  2. ImperialCrown

    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2008
    Messages:
    18,231
    Likes:
    2,660
    Welcome to Allpar. P0440 - General Evap system failure doesn't necessarily have to be a leak in the system, but of course there must be no system leaks to begin with.
    This isn't the powertrain manual for your vehicle, but the diagnostic procedures should be similar. See 'Possible Causes' on p. 161:
    http://oskin.ru/pub/chrysler-dodge/manuals/Service Manuals/2004_RG_Town&Country_Caravan_Voyager/18611-rs-powertrain_sgmldiag.pdf
    2003 was during the changeover from the LDP (leak detection pump) to the NVLD (natural vacuum leak detector) system, which was a simpler, passive leak detection method. I have had to replace NVLD detector switches that failed P0440 after confirming that no system leaks were present. The self-test must see the switch close.
    I see a Mopar part # of 52102165 for your fuel pump seal. It has been discontinued, but there should be some still out there somewhere:
    52102165 - Genuine Mopar SEAL
    If I'm not mistaken, I think that the catalyst is the last monitor test.
     
  3. AllanC

    AllanC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2003
    Messages:
    3,134
    Likes:
    400
    I agree with the diagnosis that IC presented in that the NVLD switch may be closing but no current is passing through the switch to indicate the closed status. This is fooling the PCM logic into thinking there is a large vacuum leak, code P0440.

    The reason you were getting more driving miles before this code P0440 appeared again is that the fuel level must be between 12% and 85%. So having a full fuel tank will delay running this emission test.

    I had this same situation occur on my 2003 Dodge Neon when I received code P0440. I checked all the emission vapor hoses in and around the fuel tank but could not find a deficiency. I removed the NVLD assembly and blocked the port for the fresh air filter. I applied a small vacuum to the other port and then checked for continuity on the sense wire and ground (orange wire; black wire respectively) and found none. That told me there was probably carbon / corrosion on the NVLD switch contacts. It was closing but not passing a small electrical current.

    Go to the link that I C provided and download the diagnostic manual. You can search and find code P0440. On pages 5 - 7 of the manual it explains the theory of how the evaporative emission system works. On page 8 you will find a schematic of the NVLD assembly and the internal switch and solenoid.

    I found this YouTube video that explains the functioning and shows some of the internal parts of the NVLD. It should help remove some of the mystery.

     
    ImperialCrown likes this.
  4. GaryH

    GaryH New Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2016
    Messages:
    4
    Likes:
    0
    Thanks everyone. I bought a new NVLD but no change.
    Found a factory pump seal and nut, (havent ordered it yet) thought about dropping tank and putting those in. Not sure what else to check. Vapor canister maybe? Really a pain.
     
  5. AllanC

    AllanC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2003
    Messages:
    3,134
    Likes:
    400
    Attached is link to a schematic of the evaporative emissions system plumbing for a 2003 Dodge Caravan. It uses an NVLD sensor and will be similar to your vehicle.

    You installed a replacement NVLD assembly but that did not solve the issue with code P0440. I would suggest NOT blindly replacing parts in the hopes of solving the problem. If you can lower the tank slightly from its mounting to gain access to the top of the tank with hoses and other fittings. Remove the larger hose between the NVLD assembly and the vapor canister. Plug the opening on the canister so it will not leak air. Remove the smaller diameter hose at the vapor canister and contrive a way to attach a bicycle hand tire pump to pressurize the canister. I would apply no more than 2 psi to this port. Use a spray bottle with soap solution and spray around hose fittings, filler neck seal, gas cap and the fuel pump module seal at the top of the tank. You will be looking for small bubbles indicating a leak. Hopefully something will appear to help you solve the leak problem.

    2003 dodge caravan evap system diagram - Google Search
     
  6. ImperialCrown

    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2008
    Messages:
    18,231
    Likes:
    2,660
    A pinhole (.010") can set 'small' evap leak codes. If the leak is not visually obvious, this is where the smoke test can usually find it.
    Even if you have to pay the man a diagnostic fee, you will probably come out ahead instead of just replacing 'best guess' parts. Canisters don't fail often, rubber hoses do.
    EVAP case study: 2005 Mini Cooper - Automotive Service Professional
    If the new NVLD switch didn't fix it, then it either an evap leak or NVLD wiring/vacuum supply?
     
  7. 1999 White C5 Coupe

    1999 White C5 Coupe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2006
    Messages:
    209
    Likes:
    53

    I bought a new 2003 Durango SLT 4x4 with the 5.9 engine. After the warranty expired, I began receiving the code you listed. I carefully examined each vacuum hose and found the one that attached to a metal nipple on the front of the throttle body had a small, hairline split in it. Had I not removed the hose, I would not have seen the small split. I was able to cut-off a short section of the hose and reattach it. After several drive cycles, the check-engine light went off and remained off for many more years.

    My point - you may have a small split in a hose end that is not apparent. The hose was somewhat loose on the metal nipple (hard and dry) and that may have also contributed to a small vacuum leak.

    Good luck.
     
  8. Bob Lincoln

    Bob Lincoln "CHECK FAULT CODES"
    Level 2 Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2002
    Messages:
    29,875
    Likes:
    3,255
    Hmmm....reading this has brought to mind a possibility.

    In June 2013, my wife's 2012 Chrysler 200 was rear-ended at very low speed. It scraped and chipped a thin chrome-plated plastic strip and chafed the black plastic panel below the rear bumper. The other driver paid $405 out-of-pocket for the repair. There was no damage to any other structure, nor to the painted bumper itself.
    In Dec 2013, we got a P0441 code and Check Engine light. I thought it was a loose gas cap, and it went away the next tankful.
    We got the code again several times, the last one being two months ago. Very careful that it is not a loose gas cap. But now I'm wondering if that small impact may have cracked either a rubber hose or a rigid plastic nipple or some other part of the NVLD pump system at the rear of the car. Dropping the tank is not something I relish. I guess as soon as my knee heals, I'll be crawling underneath to see if I can find anything without lowering the tank.
     
  9. GaryH

    GaryH New Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2016
    Messages:
    4
    Likes:
    0
    I looked up the part numbers for the tank seal and retaining ring, and got 52102165 for the seal and 52102164 for the ring. Mopar says they are dicontinues, but I found them at some other Mopar parts sites....HOWEVER the diagrams show a threaded style nut and the seal doesnt look right. I googled pictures and found some dodge tanks that have this style plastic nut......but my Durango has the flat steel ring....no threads at all and the seal is different than the Mopar diagram shows.

    Time and again I have found my '03 has DIFFERENT parts than what all the parts places call for. Some guy on Ebay has a steel ring for $35 that looks right, but still no luck on the seal.

    Anyway, the 0440 code is not small leak or large leak, just "not functioning properly"...which could still be a leak I suppose. And yeah, IVe been through all the hoses, replaced some, cut fresh ends on others, added hose clamps to all.... I was thinking gas tank itself because when I press in on it from underneath, I can hear a wheezing sound......I dunno. If I knew a truly fuel resistant sealant, I would just drop the tank and reset the ring.....The tabs on the ring had gotten a little beat up last time I did the fuel pump.

    Though about cutting an access panel for the pump area but dont you know its right under one of the middle seat mounts, and there is a reinforced gusset Id be cutting through. (I seriously considered carrying a pump in the back since two have failed on me in the past...with an access panel I could change it out in no time flat. We also do alot of surf fishing with the Durango...the thought of losing a fuel pump 5 miles up the beach is a little scary!)

    As for diagnostic fee....yeah....what would that even cost? My Brother has a smoke machine, he is a professional mechanic but lives pretty far away. Id sooner pay him to do it than someone else. Partially, its money, partially pride. In my almost 30 years of owning vehicles, guess how many times Ive taken something to a mechanic. ZERO. And I drive old stuff...not like I buy a new car and negelect it for 3 years and trade it in. A new car for me is something I pay cash for that has 160,000 miles on it. Ive done full engine rebuilds, transmissions, brakes, whatever's needed doing. I am an industrial mechanic/machinist/etc of sorts by trade and I have a bunch of old motorcycles that I work on for fun....so theres that.

    Thanks for the advice, I will check out that leak test as described a few posts up.....
     
  10. GaryH

    GaryH New Member

    Joined:
    May 2, 2016
    Messages:
    4
    Likes:
    0
    Thanks! Will check it out!!
     

Share This Page

Loading...