AF: Fate of the Hemi 5.7? | Page 12 | Allpar Forums
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Fate of the Hemi 5.7?

Discussion in 'Mopar / FCA News' started by andronikus, Feb 27, 2016.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. AutoTechnician

    AutoTechnician Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2012
    Messages:
    1,778
    Likes:
    1,329
    C&D achieved a 13.7 Second 1/4 with a Challenger R/T. MT got a 12.6 with the Scat Pack (Can't find 5.7 test results). R&T got a 12.6 with a scat-pack. C&D achieved a 13.0 with the 2016 Mustang GT 5.0, MT achieved a 12.9. With the performance package on the old GT 5.0, MT achieved a 12.7. The 5.0s can run close to the 392 powered cars, nevermind the 5.7 cars.

    With skilled drivers, the 5.0 Mustang will always beat a 5.7 Challenger. Always. The numbers on paper back this up, the countless instrumented tests done by dozens of reviewers backs this up. The individual quarter mile time ranges reported on the forums back this up.

    1 v 1 on the street or strip with completely random amounts of driver skill is one thing, but the instrumented tests done by countless mags are another. The 'Stang is faster.
     
    MRGTX likes this.
  2. MRGTX

    MRGTX Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2006
    Messages:
    160
    Likes:
    67
    Oh, but didn't you know that the magazines are partaking in a massive conspiracy?
    :D

    Ok...I think this "Challenger vs. Mustang" thing is covered. Even if I had time slips to share (which I don't), my Mustang isn't stock so the numbers wouldn't be useful for this discussion. I'm running 200 treadwear rubber in a non-stock size and the car is set up to participate in the STP autocross class this summer. Besides, I haven't seen anyone else's time slips on here. ;)

    These are my last words on the topic...because I'm feeling weird about arguing AGAINST one of my favorite cars on the market! :D

    A great friend of mine has a 2012 Challenger R/T Base model/6spd (presumably as light as possible for an R/T) which is total a blast to drive...but my Mustang walks it every time. Even when we trade cars, we get the exact same result...this has been true since before I started modding my Ford.

    From a dig, from 30 from 50, from 60...the Mustang just walks away. It's not close, guys!

    Secondly, I rent Challenger R/Ts as often as I can. I've even had two 600+ mile road trips with them and I have been willing to pay through the nose to get them. Absolutely the best road trip car that I can find...one was a gorgeous Hemi Orange/Classic (5spd auto) and the most recent (January) was a black base R/T with the wonderful new 8spd. They both rocked...they were both quick and satisfying machines. So I've driven every R/T configuration and I have loved the hell out of them all! Each one is palpably more slower every Coyote Mustang that I've driven...and it doesn't matter. I adore the Challenger all the same.

    It's funny. Every other internet forum that I partake in, I have had occasion to speak up for how great of a car the Challenger R/T is in the face of criticism. The 5.7L is a really endearing engine...it's plenty strong, sounds amazing but it's also accessible and joy-inducing in a way that the old LSx motors were not. The Challenger's style and presence are unmatched....they're amazing to experience from behind the wheel. More than the Mustang or the Camaro, they feel like the true ultimate evolution of the 60s Muscle car in the best possible way.

    The 5.7L is a great engine and the Challenger is a wonderful package that people will covet as long as there exists gasoline and paved roads. It doesn't need anyone to tell lies about the curb weight or exaggerate the performance numbers. Does it need an update? In lieu of a lighter package, I strongly feel that it does need an update. The Challenger is a big, big girl.

    The rest of the pony car field enjoys higher revs and more base power...and the 5.7L isn't keeping pace. The Mustang got a bit heavier for 2015, the Camaro lost some...but the Challenger is still hundreds of lbs heaver than the competition.

    IMO if the 6.4L was the base R/T motor, we wouldn't even need this conversation. That's the motor this car thrives with...that's the one that allows it to compete on the street with the blue ovals and the bow ties.
     
  3. Mike V.

    Mike V. Mopar-nac The Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2008
    Messages:
    26,427
    Likes:
    22,139
    There are many many many 5.7 owners that regularly run faster than magazine tests once they learn how to launch the car.

    This is the same situation with 6.4 cars.

    Practice makes perfect.

    Yet their seems to be a lot of dismissing of the individual time slips of Challenger owners.

    It's a good race, but the Mustang is not automagically faster by default. The Challenger gets faster as it get miles on it and the driver learns how to drive it.

    The Mustang is dang fast, no denying, but the Challenger can and does give it a good run.

    Mike
     
    #223 Mike V., Mar 15, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2016
    HotCarNut likes this.
  4. Mike V.

    Mike V. Mopar-nac The Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2008
    Messages:
    26,427
    Likes:
    22,139
    I have posted time slips on this forum.

    What are your quarter mile times in your Mustang GT?

    Mike
     
    #224 Mike V., Mar 15, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2016
  5. aldo90731

    Staff Member Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2010
    Messages:
    10,249
    Likes:
    21,541
    If Ford brings back a more recognizably Mustang front-end in the next redesign, I may seriously consider one.
     
  6. MRGTX

    MRGTX Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2006
    Messages:
    160
    Likes:
    67
    Mike,
    I'm glad we can have nuanced, intelligent, friendly discussions on these topics. The welcoming atmosphere on Allpar.com forums is renown across the car community. Every time I come back, I'm reminded of these heartwarming aspects.

    As a life long Mopar owner, defender and enthusiast, I find it unsettling how insecure some of you guys are.

    Anyway, your attempt to shift the burden of proof onto me as a representative of the 5.0L Coyote Mustang, against all empirical and anecdotal evidence accepted by everyone outside of this cozy little Allpar bubble is more than a little tiresome.

    I will mention again: I am an autocrosser. I have a lowered, suspension/tire modded Mustang with big brakes, as much negative camber up front as I could find, a middle of the road 3.55 axle ratio...and it drives right around 5.7L Challengers all day long.

    You don't have to believe me...the entire body of evidence, all documentation in the world outside of Allpar takes this for granted. It's not up for debate.

    -Mike
     
  7. Mike V.

    Mike V. Mopar-nac The Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2008
    Messages:
    26,427
    Likes:
    22,139
    Good luck with your autox-ing, it can be quite fun. Sounds like you have a nice Mustang, but...

    You have no real world drag racing experience driving or racing against a Challenger R/T and you are continuing to dismiss what actual owners are doing with the cars.

    Mike
     
    #227 Mike V., Mar 15, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2016
  8. aldo90731

    Staff Member Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2010
    Messages:
    10,249
    Likes:
    21,541
    Some Mopar owners are more insecure than others.

    Challenger owners --I owned two-- tend to be sensitive because the press habitually loves to place Challenger in third place behind Mustang and Camaro --never mind that Challenger is way better than regularly painted.

    On the other hand, I find FJ Cruiser and 4Runner more insecure than Jeep owners because Wrangler and Grand Cherokee habitually trump Toyotas.

    It all boils down to where your vehicle sits in the perceived pecking order.
     
    koussevitzky likes this.
  9. Bob ONeill

    Bob ONeill 325,000+ miles and counting...
    Level 2 Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Messages:
    29,619
    Likes:
    234
    You make statements without documentation. It appears that Mike V has had previous success against 2011-2014 'stangs. That evidence is his word. Sure there may not be any posted time slips but you don't offer any either. I STRONGLY suggest that you guys agree to disagree and leave the jabbing, trolling and other passive aggressive posts for more productive comments.
     
    Mike V. and valiant67 like this.
  10. MRGTX

    MRGTX Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2006
    Messages:
    160
    Likes:
    67
    FWIW, the lowest published weight that I can find on
    Fair enough.
    I will say that I go to a regular cruise nights in the summer with a wonderful group that primarily owns Challengers. There are mostly R/Ts there, some all stock, at least one with a blower...others modded somewhere in between. There's one Yellowjacket owner, a couple of SRTs and (as of last summer) one Hellcat/6spd. None of these guys have any qualms about where their Challengers fit into the pecking order. None of these guys (and gals) give off any sense of insecurity...for the most part, they like my Mustang as much as I like their Challengers. They're all happy with their choice and several of them are on their second R/Ts.

    I just don't get why anyone needs to fib about these cars in order to feel ok. They're awesome machines.
     
  11. Mike V.

    Mike V. Mopar-nac The Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2008
    Messages:
    26,427
    Likes:
    22,139
    I have no insecurities, I let my car speak for itself. If I get beat, the other car is faster. It's really that simple.

    You are correct though, the press and even the automotive community seem to love to beat up on the Challenger. The real world always proves them wrong.

    Mike
     
    aldo90731 likes this.
  12. MRGTX

    MRGTX Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2006
    Messages:
    160
    Likes:
    67
    I think you're right here.

    Again, I don't like being the guy who has to argue against one of my favorite cars on the planet. I just want to be ok loving the Challenger for reasons based in reality.

    Is MikeV's Challenger really 200lbs lighter than Allpar says it should be? Is it really 100% stock and 0.7 to 1.0 seconds quicker in the 1/4 mile than anyone else's car can manage? Who am I to say that it's not true?
     
  13. WXman

    WXman Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2014
    Messages:
    918
    Likes:
    1,151
    I guess the air is different there than it is where I live. Because here where I live, the R/T doesn't even hold a candle to the Coyote engine in the Mustang. 420 HP in a 3,650 lb. car vs. 385? HP in a 3,990 lb. car....it's the laws of physics. The R/T cars are consistently mid to high 13 second cars. The Ford 5.0 cars are mid to high 12 second cars. You and I both know that in a 1/4 mile race, one full second is BIG.

    You can put a totally inexperienced driver in a 2014 Mustang 5.0 automatic and a professional race car driver in a 2014 Challenger R/T auto or stick, your choice, and the Mustang will eat the Challenger for lunch, all day every day of the week. In fact, the lady driving the Mustang could fix a sandwich, then hit the gas and still win. It's not even close at the track or on the streets. That's my real world experience.

    One of the vehicles in my driveway is a 15 year old Mustang GT. The "dark" days of the Mustang with the 2 valve 4.6. It's basically stock except for exhaust, 3.73 gears, and a mail-order tune. And even THAT car gives new Challenger R/Ts fits on the street. I even spanked a Magnum R/T just this very week actually.

    Now, the Scat Pack/392 cars are a different story... now you are realistcally looking at a high 12 second car and now you can keep up with the Mustang GTs. That's the truth of the matter. I've been to numerous tracks and numerous sactioned events and I've never seen a nearly stock 392 run 11s. Ever. There's just too much weight.

    I will admit, I love the look of the new Camaro. And the performance is very impressive. But, the price is insane.....and it's still a GM product.
     
  14. Mike V.

    Mike V. Mopar-nac The Moderator

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2008
    Messages:
    26,427
    Likes:
    22,139
    Never had a problem with a Coyote.

    Many Challenger R/T's run low 13's and only take a few bolt ons to get solid 12 second passes.

    The gears make a big difference.

    You were also racing a 2005-2008 5.7 which is not as powerful stock as the 2009 and up Eagle 5.7.

    High 12's for a 392? No, stock Scat Packs have run 12.0-12.20 without blinking an eye and there are times slips that have been posted.

    Amazing what the cars can do once the owner figures out how to drive them. This goes the same for the R/T.

    I agree.

    Mike
     
    #234 Mike V., Mar 15, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 15, 2016
  15. Bob ONeill

    Bob ONeill 325,000+ miles and counting...
    Level 2 Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Messages:
    29,619
    Likes:
    234
    Ok we'll have a few more posts but again, let's not try to argue the point. Or, do you know for a FACT that Mike V doesn't have a weight slip proving his statement? Do you know for a FACT that every Challenger on the planet weighs the same as what Allpar says they should weigh? Could there be some condition in this universe where his statements are true? Without evidence to the contrary we must trust that what he says is true and if it's not, let him take that up with his maker. It is not for us to argue something for which we have no evidence to the contrary.

    In your own words, 'who are you to say that what Mike V states is not true?

    Again, let me STRONGLY suggest that we pass this topic by, agree to disagree and move on.
     
    Mike V. likes this.
  16. MRGTX

    MRGTX Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2006
    Messages:
    160
    Likes:
    67
    So which one is yours? Stock? Bolt-ons? What are your ET/Traps looking like?
    I could have sworn you said that you were stock, 388xlbs and running 13.0 flat. I might be mis-remembering... but even that wouldn't be doing the job against a stock Coyote!

    You've just got to post up something better than the widely available stock Coyote slips...I would kill to see this! :D

    Psssst: 3.73s are standard from the factory on all Performance Pack Mustangs, optional on any GT since the Coyote showed up...and even a bit prior.
    Learn something every day!


    This doesn't apply to the Mustang or any other car, eh? Just the Challenger?

    Wellp...the thread was about the fate of the 5.7...the conversation stemmed from a response that it wasn't competitive with the standard performance offerings from GM and Ford. MikeV disagrees and has made some pretty strong claims that are worthy of a follow-up question. The burden of proof is on him...but in the end it doesn't matter.
     
  17. Bob ONeill

    Bob ONeill 325,000+ miles and counting...
    Level 2 Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 31, 2002
    Messages:
    29,619
    Likes:
    234
    And, once again you continue to troll and attempt to argue and disregard my questions all together. Mike has many times in the past proven with posted time slips. Yet, you either are too new to have noticed or just want to argue or both.

    Either we get this topic back to the original discussion or ...
     
  18. redriderbob

    redriderbob Mopar Guru!
    Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2004
    Messages:
    12,765
    Likes:
    23,203
    There is only one F-Body of that generation I liked... the 1977-1978 Pontiac Firebird Trans Am. I like many others, did not find it attractive. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.
     
  19. MRGTX

    MRGTX Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2006
    Messages:
    160
    Likes:
    67
    Argue or attempt to reflect reality?

    I'm not sure if I mentioned this but I think the 5.7L is a damn fine engine. I looked into putting one into my Dart but went with the middle ground (between LA and Hemi) with the 5.9L Magnum crate motor due to budget constraints. I'm in love with that 5.9L and I know the 5.7L Hemi is significantly better. I want one badly!

    Well, I just did a search for "time slip" from MikeV's posts and I didn't find anything yet.
    It sounds like he may have the world's fastest stock 5.7L Challenger and I'm trying to keep an open mind.
     
  20. valiant67

    valiant67 ...

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2003
    Messages:
    36,682
    Likes:
    19,435
    Or...the thread gets shut down. Which it is now closed.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Loading...
 We are not affiliated with FCA. We make no claims regarding validity or accuracy of information or advice. Copyright © VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.