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FCA quality: lousy scores

Discussion in 'Mopar / FCA News' started by valiant67, Feb 22, 2017.

  1. Mr. Fusion

    Mr. Fusion Active Member

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    So, Jaguar is more reliable than Infiniti or Mitsubishi. Really. And Infiniti is somehow less reliable than Nissan, even though it is Nissan (with better equipment).

    I know we're just going to hash-out the same old arguments in this thread, but this survey is no better than when (for example) CR reports the 300 as being far more reliable than the Charger, or the Lincoln MKS having different results than the Ford Taurus. There is just something fundamentally wonky about these things.
     
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  2. Mike V.

    Mike V. Mopar-nac The Moderator

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    This is exactly why I have continuously questions the ratings and, quite frankly, don't believe the findings any longer.

    Mike
     
  3. patfromigh

    patfromigh Well-Known Member

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    Is it too late to keep on blaming Doug Betts?
     
  4. Dave Z

    Dave Z It's me, Dave
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    Doug Betts never had the power to make a difference, it’s like blaming a UAW guy for the BlueTooth module failing.

    My own cars match the JD Power experiences — okay, they’re actually worse. But I don’t have any 2013 Toyotas or whatever, so I can’t compare.

    I think Larry was probably quite on target in his assignment of blame, though there’s a lot of things you can look at. Even here, remember when they kept making Pentastar heads for new engines while customers had their cars sitting, waiting for heads, in garages? That tells you their priorities.

    I think it may be time for them to slow down, and think about what they’re doing. When everything is an emergency, nobody has time to think, and bad things happen. Now and then people have to stop and reflect — and rest.

    PS> Mac users, remember OS 10.6 and how well received it was — and how many people are still trying to use it? That was an entire OS designed to do nothing but fix the issues that cropped up from trying to do too much, too quickly, from OS 10.0 to 10.5. IMHO, 10.6 was the first real production version of OS X. (Maybe the last, too ;) )
     
  5. Chase300

    Chase300 Well-Known Member

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    Well my '14 Citadel Hemi with 46K is sitting at the dealership waiting for a water pump....apparently on national back order.
    Compare to my 185K 300C Hemi is still running the factory installed water pump as is my '01 Durango 4.7L with 355K miles on it.

    So sure seems to me FCA changed water pump vendors and went with a much lower quality one.
     
  6. Dave Z

    Dave Z It's me, Dave
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    I suspect most of the time FCA chose better vendors than Daimler and Cerberus, but ... hands up those who have had to replace their UConnect modules? (in my case, both Dart and 300.)
     
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  7. Illegal Machine

    Illegal Machine Active Member

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    For me it's the sunroofs. Much rattle.
     
  8. aldo90731

    Staff Member Level III Supporter

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    I hear a tone of frustration in Larry's write up.

    I am personally dealing with this. The warranty on my 2013 Rubicon expired in early January; a week later the GPS died; a week after that the stability control light started coming on for no reason. Yesterday, after driving 1,300 miles back from Canada the Jeep wouldn't start 100 miles from home.

    I haven't owned an out-of-warranty Chrysler/FCA product since I was in college. At the rate this is going, I may have to choose between fixing it, trade it in for a new FCA vehicle, or sell it for a non-FCA product.
     
    #10 aldo90731, Feb 22, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2017
  9. aldo90731

    Staff Member Level III Supporter

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    I worked on the JDPA studies years ago and, while not perfect, they give you a good read on what consumers encounter.

    The problem is not the data, but JDPA's insistence to rank scores that are not statistically different. If 300 being above Charger gives you pause, you can take the JDPA rankings and make three piles: Top, Average and Poor. Even by those standards FCA is still at the bottom.

    FCA can deny the data and pretend there's no problem, or they can admit they have a problem and work to fix it.
     
    #11 aldo90731, Feb 22, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2017
  10. Mr. Fusion

    Mr. Fusion Active Member

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    I think the post-failure experience is a huge part of this, moreso than the actual failure or breakdown itself. This would also explain why a Lincoln MKS owner may be more satisfied with his car than a Ford Taurus owner. Both cars may have the same issues, but the Lincoln owner is treated better by the dealer.

    I am not suggesting that FCA overlook the actual reliability issues in any way...but hypothetically if they could only spend money on one thing, it should be the dealer service and parts experience for when things do go wrong. From a customer experience standpoint, they would get more bang for their buck.
     
  11. valiant67

    valiant67 ...

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    Well we all know the service experience sucks. Wait times for parts seems to be growing longer. It's as if who ever does parts planning makes no allowance for spares.
    When things go wrong, it's more difficult than necessary.
     
  12. aldo90731

    Staff Member Level III Supporter

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    True, there are ways to make a quality problem sting less with better customer service, but it can only do so much.

    The opposite is also true: if you need to keep bringing the vehicle back for problems, at some point you don't care how nice they are about it, you just want the thing fixed.
     
  13. Mr. Fusion

    Mr. Fusion Active Member

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    Two honest questions, in light of your experience:

    1. Do the JDP surveys have a way of accounting for confirmation bias?

    2. What do you think of the TrueDelta approach?

    Not being a member, I believe the TrueDelta survey asks one question: "Did you need to take your vehicle in for an unscheduled service in the last quarter?" And if Yes, then they rank the problems into two categories: "The problem rendered the car inoperable", or "The problem did not render the car inoperable". Now, that is reasonable and valuable information to me.

    The only problem, as TrueDelta will admit, is that for certain vehicles their sample sizes are just too small to be statistically valid. (I also believe that is a problem with CR, but they do not admit it.) I wish TD would get bought by a larger organization that can broaden their scope to be as wide as that of JDP.
     
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  14. valiant67

    valiant67 ...

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    The JD Powers surveys I have taken were very detailed. Much more so than the CR surveys.
     
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  15. Prabhjot

    Prabhjot Active Member

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    Mr. Larry V has WAY overgeneralized, spun a grand narrative to account for something that mostly comes down to, it would seem: (a) confirmation biases, since even FCA owners have at least some sense of FCA brands being none-too-successful-or-good in the past (b) bad/discount dealer and warranty/recall/spares experiences.

    Recall sheer-incidence has been amplified in the usa by the nhtsa fine and agreement to henceforth be hyper-vigilant/confessional. Most albeit not all of the huge number of FCA recalls have actually been for very small and un-serious things. BUT: expensive (about 900 million$ in 2015: fca made losses in the usa that year) since FCA is being forced to issue a recall a week for even statistically insignificant 'risks'. Or so it seems.

    Meanwhile in the uk FIAT is about at the median point in reliability as judged, better imo than Jd Power, by internet based user crowd sourced large data sets, and FCA in europe has better-than-average warranty costs, including Fiat vans/uv-s.

    Recalls leave a bad impression do they not, only more so given some of the less-good dealers FCA still harbors.

    Dodge is up, Chrysler is just about average but Ram is down and Jeep and Fiat too. Very difficult to believe J D Power's statistics, other than hopefully at the very top of the list.

    JD Power makes money from automakers but distributes to the general public these ostensibly accurate 'rankings'. Their business model reeks of er 'conflicts of interest', therefore, no?

    Having said that so-called 'reliability' is now in a pretty tight band imo across ALL automakers, compared to say 6-10 years ago even let alone 15 or 20. imo Making JD Power's pseudo-fine-grained data based on small samples, telephonically at that, near useless by now: diminishing 'returns' as it were? The utility of JD Power rankings (with their alleged micro-details) is thereby greatly diminished
     
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  16. dakrt99

    dakrt99 Well-Known Member

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    Infinity:

    2016: 136
    2017: 203

    Ram:

    2015: 134
    2017: 183

    I have done just a little digging and have come to a conclusion, brands literally move up and down the scale year-to-year. FCA brands are almost always well below industry average. No wonder people think FCA is junk. I really thought that would have changed by now, I was wrong. On a side note, it hasn't hurt sales, if you look at the last several years, FCA is up year-to-date. How does this effect sales?

    2009: 931,402
    2010: 1,085,211
    2011: 1,369,114
    2012: 1,651,787
    2013: 1,800,368
    2014: 2,090,639
    2015: 2,243,907
    2016: 2,244,315
     
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  17. hmk123

    Level III Supporter

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    But my question is: what does "junk" mean? For example, when a car magazine does a vehicle test by points and all three come within a few percentages of one another the headline usually says Brand X beats Brand Y. Or that Brand Z is last. It hardly ever says that they are pretty much all equal. That's not a headline that sells. How big is the quality difference between top and bottom? Sure, never good to be at the bottom. But how meaningful is it?
     
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  18. aldo90731

    Staff Member Level III Supporter

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    Biased results always come from sampling issues, and significant bias in responses come from customer loyalty: i.e., loyal customers will give you a pass where other customers don't. But loyalty cuts the same way for everyone and, ironically, QUALITY is the biggest predictor of LOYALTY. The difference is in how many loyal customers do you have.

    For instance, Toyota and Honda have some of the strongest loyalty levels in the market, but that's because they also have the most consistent quality. So Toyota and Honda respondents will have a greater proportion of loyal customers in the sample of any study, who will give their brand a pass whereas FCA customers won't. So it becomes a vicious cycle for FCA; a virtuous cycle for Toyota and Honda, and any other brand with strong loyalty.

    FIAT is structurally limited in its ability to retain customers based on its limited, peripheral portfolio, so it is constantly conquesting new customers. But other decisions, like killing 200 and Dart for example, further curtail FCA's ability to retain those customers.

    JD Power samples based on sales; they do not sample based on loyalty; nor they should: it is FCA's key weakness that they do not foster customer loyalty as much as it is Toyota and Honda's strength that they do.

    The Consumer Reports issue is more pervasive because they actively survey subscribers to whom they recommended those vehicles in the first place. But in the end it is also bias coming from a glaring sampling flaw.

    I am not familiar with how TrueDelta is collected. Unless TrueDelta accounts for respondent bias in its sampling, it will yield biased results too.
     
    #20 aldo90731, Feb 22, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2017

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