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Fiat Punto FAILS Euro NCAP Crash Test, Gets ZERO Rating

Discussion in 'Auto News & Rumors' started by Hemidakota, Dec 15, 2017.

  1. T_690

    T_690 Active Member

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    @Deckard_Cain

    First. C3 is a very ugly.

    Second. It's nothing which should form Fiat 600 or Abarth 600. IMO the real strength of 500 are Abarth versions. So maybe I have completely different look on 500 compared to you. For possible 600 I look more as on a Italian competitor to Mini.
     
  2. Deckard_Cain

    Deckard_Cain Active Member

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    The Abarth versions are the top-trimmed versions but they're not the volume makers of the 500. What makes the volume of the 500 sales are the lower trim versions and the multitude of special editions of the 500.
    As much as I also agree with you that a possible 600 would follow a concept closer to the Mini, if the consumer could get a quirky car that he/she can personalize (pick roof color, interior colors, etc) for a cheaper price then they'll go to the C3.
    Plus the Mini right now is a compact car, and not a sub-compact. That might still open up a chance for a Fiat 600. But the launch window is much narrower because of the C3. And that still wouldn't replace the Punto.
    They should make a low-price/high-volume subcompact besides a 500 5-door. A Punto successor to compete with the Dacia Sandero.
     
  3. Erik Latranyi

    Level III Supporter

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    In the US, Mini has been dropping in sales every year since 2013. I am not sure it is a good segment for NAFTA to be playing in.
     
  4. T_690

    T_690 Active Member

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    I don't see bi-color Fiat 500. To me it seems that mostly cheaper products are the ones which go with that option. Like 500L or this C3. There is no much other substance for them to offer.

    On the other hand 500 has Abarth. I'm still hoping that 500X will offer Abarth version with GME with upcoming facelift.

    If you go to Germany, to Stuttgart to be more precise, almost all 500s are Abarths. Before 500L and 500X came in they sold up to 30k 500s in Germany per year.

    Or where I live. 500s are base 1.2 8v models or Abarths. Middle models are hard to find.

    Cheap Fiat? As I said with Mercosur-EU FTA everything is possible. IMO, FCA is ready for it. But in that case not only that Argo will se Europe. Most likely it will happen with Toro and some not yet released models. Germans are hardly pushing for its, but their direction is opposite.
    And I don't see that model as Dacia competitor. More like Korean or Japanese competitor. 2 or 3 fixed trim levels. Basically you can choose different exterior color and wheels. All gasoline engine line-up with mild hybrids.
     
  5. Deckard_Cain

    Deckard_Cain Active Member

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    Those options, plus the airbumps increase profits. You might not like it, but the first to offer it was even Mini.
    Someone that wants a different color roof pays for it. The same for the airbumps and some interior options. This increases profits.

    Yeah, the Abarth is great and unique to the segment, they should keep offering that. In the B-segment they would have more competition though.
    The Argo, if it came to Europe nearly as it is would be a Sandero competitor.
     
  6. T_690

    T_690 Active Member

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    Maybe French people loves it. But in Italy... Most versions are base or they are giving some options for free.

    In the past and when it was less powerful some have some aspirations like Renault with Twingo RS. But currently Abarth 500 is unique offering for A-segment.

    It depends on execution and power levels. Transmission, engines and above all suspension. Is there independent rear suspension, front McPherson made from aluminium and similar.
    Here is a new Polo GTI but it still has twisted beam at the rear. :eek:

    Maybe exterior styling can deceive. But IMO interior is a very attractive with competitive infotainment system. As I said to me it looks like a competitor to Koreans.
    Some changes must be applied for European market. Headlights and bonnet must be altered. Most likely that nose will be longer or that production will be more expensive in order to keep this short nose and to satisfy EuroNCAP Pedestrian Impact.
     
  7. MJAB

    MJAB Well-Known Member

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    Sergio Marchionne and Altavilla, from what I can see from some declarations to media over years, and than the Fiat real products that were launched in Europe have not the same opinion, nor strategy.
    As in many large companies managers sometimes have confliting views and strategy of product development.

    For example Fiat in U.S.A. is not controlled by FCA Italy, but by FCA US, and how they launched and modified the cars for U.S.A. tastes (and laws/rules) is result of what was decided in Detroit.
    Who is in charge of NAFTA? Sergio Marchionne. Big error, but is only my opinion, it should be at head of no regional area.

    Altavilla, and other FCA EMEA managers, spoke about a bigger Panda ... no product come out.
    Meanwhile Mike Mainley, Jeep, spoke about a A-Jeep = he took the money of the bigger Panda project (or even development).

    Why is there a Fiat Tipo? Because Tofas. What is Tofas a paritetic joint venture FCA - Koc Group (Turkey).
    My opinion, because Altavilla, former CEO of Tofas, had good relationship with Koc Group, he persuaded them to invest in the project. So for FCA the cost of Egea/Tipo was very low and shared with Koc Group.

    South America.
    Now at head is Stefan Ketter, brazilian, very strong manager in FCA.
    Also South America for Fiat (FCA) has been source of high profits till the market downturn of 2012.
    They are repositioning Fiat there.
     
    AlfaCuda likes this.
  8. Deckard_Cain

    Deckard_Cain Active Member

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    After the launch of the new C3, the sales of the Citroen C3 from january to October 2017 increased 60%. In October it entered the top-10 most sold models in Europe. it did this by kicking down the Fiat Panda.
    It also sold more than the 500. And even with the "premium" 500, FCA has razor thin margins in Europe while PSA has margins above 6%. That tells me that they are doing something right.

    In the UK you had this little snippet:

    So basically, 95% of consumers are paying for the option of two-tone paint finish and 64% are paying for the airbumps. They're also buying the C3 as a posh car, picking the highest trim-level.
    That means money in the bank.

    Heck, in Portugal 505 of the sales have two-tone paint finish (again you have to pay for this), 85% have the airbumps (you have to pay for this) and 40% have personalized interior.
    You might not like it, or the italians might not like it but the commercial strategy was right on target. Their comercial performance says so, with a 60% increase in sales, and with a drastic percentage of those sales being from consumers that spend in costumization options for their car.
     
    AlfaCuda likes this.
  9. pumadog

    pumadog Active Member

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    Um, to my eyes the C3 looks much cheaper than any 500. Similar to the Twingo in that area. If you wanna compare to a Fiat, more like a bigger Panda. But the C3 is b-segment so there's no substance to compare sales.
     
  10. AlfaCuda

    AlfaCuda Active Member

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    I think a "600" is long overdue. A premium B hatch both in 3 and 5 door. If it has worked so well with the 500 I can't imagine why a similar car should not work in the B segment profitably. The Argo can be the base but the styling and personality should be chic like the 500.

    Perhaps a cheaper UV type car could also be produced for the B segment along with a Jeep twin.
     
  11. Deckard_Cain

    Deckard_Cain Active Member

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    I was discussing the C3 since it's sales skyrocketed with the new generation. And not only did sales skyrocket, but the sales profile is not the sale of lower-specced vehicles with no personalization options. Quite the opposite, people are paying Citroen to personalize the C3 and get more equipment.
    This is something that Fiat should've done either with a Fiat 600 or a new Punto/Argo. C3 stole this chance from them, and this is reflected in the C3 sales around Europe (excluding the domestic markets).
     
  12. T_690

    T_690 Active Member

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    Sales skyrocketed? It seems that 3 gain in 2017 jumped just round 50% compared to 2016. And I'm sure it will slightly slip already next year.

    IMO, 200k cars in European B-segment per year is not much. Most likely that gains came from platform sharing and with using what's now relatively old platform. PSA already paid for its development in the previous decade.

    You had chic Lancia Ypislon yet it never had a success outside of Italy. Also. Italians usually play well when they offer good bang for the buck or sporty character. Chick is not their forte.
     
  13. T_690

    T_690 Active Member

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    Argo as a base for 600? I thought more about shorter Fiat Tipo with more upscale interior and IRS.

    Based on a Argo? Yes please.
     
    Deckard_Cain and AlfaCuda like this.
  14. Deckard_Cain

    Deckard_Cain Active Member

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    The platform of the Argo is not suitable for the europeanmarket. An european Argo will almost certainly be based on the Small Wide platform.
     
  15. Deckard_Cain

    Deckard_Cain Active Member

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    When you are already selling over 100k cars per year, a 50% sales increase isn't a "just" it's a huge increase.
    Also Citroen was always a smaller brand than Fiat so those sales numbers are very very good. If you refuse to see the commercial success that the C3 is, then that's your issue.
     
  16. T_690

    T_690 Active Member

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    How you know that?
     
  17. vipergg

    vipergg Well-Known Member

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    Now thats a dumb student, gets a zero . Who are they using for engineers ?
     
  18. MJAB

    MJAB Well-Known Member

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    The have 0 stars since there is no alert for the passenger unlatched seatbelt in the base model.
    Otherwise it would be 2 stars.

    = since we have to drop the model since uhmm at least 2 years ... we do nothing.
     
  19. Deckard_Cain

    Deckard_Cain Active Member

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    Because it is an evolution of the Palio platform of the 90's. It just has higher-strength steel but the structure is the same (you can check the underpinnings in flipped over cars in Autopareri). It's not adapted nor prepared for the more stringent crash-tests of Europe.
    They can easily use the Small-Wide platform though.
     
  20. T_690

    T_690 Active Member

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    It's not so simple. Actually rear suspension is very similar to (Grande) Punto.

    Maybe @MJAB can explain more.
     

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