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fuel injectors

Discussion in 'Neon' started by FRANZID, May 13, 2020.

  1. FRANZID

    FRANZID Member

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    Hello everyone, I am turning to you again for help in resolving my issue. I can not find the source data, including the electronic component for the fuel injectors of the Chrysler 2.0 16V 420H engine. Specifically, we need information on the resistance of these fuel injectors, how many ohms are they?
     
  2. AllanC

    AllanC Well-Known Member

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    FRANZID likes this.
  3. FRANZID

    FRANZID Member

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  4. ImperialCrown

    ImperialCrown Moderator
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    Fuel injectors don't electrically fail often and if they do, it isn't all of them at once. If you have a misfire, diagnose for that.
    The # 4 injector is at the end of the fuel rail where sediment can build up and eventually restrict or clog the fuel supply. Another problem may not be sediment, but air bubbles. If the pump is pushing foam or air bubbles, it can behave like a failed injector.
    What symptoms or fault codes are you having to suspect a fuel injector issue?
     
  5. FRANZID

    FRANZID Member

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    Hello! My question about the resistance of the nozzles is not caused by a breakdown, but by the need to find out the resistance of the gasoline fuel nozzle and compare it with the resistance of the gas nozzle, since I have gas equipment on my car and propane on gas.
    after installing the gas cylinder equipment BRC, a week later errors popped up, p0202, p0203, p0204, (P0204 INJECTOR CIRCUIT MALFUNCTION CYL cylinder number according to the error number) at the moment, p0203 and p0204, the check periodically goes out itself, but after some number of km again lights up. On May 7, I went to the installers, but they said that they did not know the reason, disappeared the contact and reset the errors, after 5 km the check caught fire again. For the sake of the experiment, at home, I threw off the errors myself and have been riding on gasoline for four days now, there are no errors. I read that such tricks can appear if the car's ECU does not like the emulation of the nozzles by the gas electronic unit. And as I later found out, this situation often happens on American cars. It is solved by installing resistance in the connection circuit of a gasoline injector.
    P \ S If you are interested, I can lay out a schematic diagram of this revision.
     
  6. AllanC

    AllanC Well-Known Member

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    This is the diagnostic information about codes P0201 ... P0204.

    P0201-FUEL INJECTOR #1

    When Monitored: With battery voltage greater than 10 volts. Auto Shutdown Relay
    energized. Engine speed less than 3000 rpm.
    Set Condition: No inductive spike is detected after injector turn off. One Trip Fault
    .

    I am thinking that when the vehicle is using propane the gasoline / liquid fuel injectors are disabled. The problem seems to be that the ECU (electronic control unit) in the conversion is not thorough and is not replicating the inductive spike that the engine PCM (powertrain control module) expects. That is why the codes P0201 ... P0204 are being set.

    When an individual injector is energized electrical current at 12 volt potential flows through the windings of the injector. The internal pintle raises from its seat and liquid fuel is injected into the intake air stream for that particular cylinder. When the ground is removed from the circuit and electrical current flow is stopped, there is a momentary spike from 12 volt to about 40 - 50 volts in the injector return circuit to the PCM. The conversion software is not emulating properly and the PCM is not recognizing a spike and setting the code.

    If the liquid injectors are disabled I do not see how adding resistance to the existing electrical circuit will resolve the issue. The problem lies with the emulation software in the propane conversion ECU (electronic control unit).


    Yes providing a link to the schematic diagram would be helpful. Also can you provide the website of the company that manufactures and sells the propane conversion? There may be some documentation on the company site that would be helpful.
     
  7. FRANZID

    FRANZID Member

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    Hello! I think you're right, it is!
    The equipment company I installed is considered one of the leading in its field, BRC . This error, as it turned out, was not widespread, but nevertheless occurs, and is solved by the method shown in the picture.
    petrol1.jpg
    Next week, the installers promised me to do this, if you want, I can take a picture of everything and then show you.
     
  8. AllanC

    AllanC Well-Known Member

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    So the solution to avoiding code P0201 ... P0204 is to splice a resistor in parallel to the ground side circuit to the petrol ECU. Very interesting. Yes, if you would post a picture of the finished installation it would be appreciated. Is there an additional input device for the LPG that is added to the intake system?

    From your ID I assumed you are located in the European country of France? I researched fuel prices in your country and find that LPG is about 1/2 the cost of petrol and diesel. So I can understand why you would install this LPG conversion.

    What is your fuel consumption running on propane versus petrol as expressed in liters per 100 km?
     
  9. FRANZID

    FRANZID Member

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    I am in the European part, in the south of Russia, Krasnodar, about 100 km from the Black Sea coast, Russia and France have similar flags, and there are three of the same colors. Gas equipment of the 4th generation, a hole is made in the intake manifold and gas nozzles are connected, each by cylinder number, that is, only 4 pieces, the impulse to open the nozzles is taken by the car's computer. The cost of gas propane and gasoline is approximately the next site of Rosneft
    пропан.jpg
    My consumption for 92 gasoline is, in the urban cycle, 11-12 liters per 100 km, the capacity with propane is 50 liters, in fact a little more than 40 liters of propane is placed, so it turns out that for 1000 rubles I drive 185km on gasoline, and on the same price 330km on propane , that’s the difference.
     
  10. AllanC

    AllanC Well-Known Member

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    Adding a resistor in parallel to the wiring circuit as highlighted reduces the total resistance in the circuit from the fuel injector, LPG ECU and the petrol ECU (aka powertrain control module). Reducing resistance increases the electrical current flow / amperage and thus will result in a higher voltage spike when the circuit becomes open. This is what the petrol ECU is expecting so this should eliminate codes P0201 ... P0204.

    Since the intake runners are long, curved tubes made of plastic, drilling and attaching LPG nozzles should be very easy.

    This conversion seems very smart and wise to make. You save money in driving costs and propane burns cleaner so less contaminants in engine oil.
     
  11. FRANZID

    FRANZID Member

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    Yes, propane in the form of fuel is more environmentally friendly than gasoline, less emissions. :). If you are interested, I can go outside and take a picture of my equipment, how the installation was made and the nozzles are connected to the intake manifold.
     
  12. AllanC

    AllanC Well-Known Member

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    Yes please take a picture of the engine compartment and the propane conversion equipment and post. Thanks.
     
  13. FRANZID

    FRANZID Member

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  14. FRANZID

    FRANZID Member

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    IMG_20200515_180528.jpg
    Sorry for the mess in the trunk!
     
  15. AllanC

    AllanC Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the very good images. Always interesting to see how the internal combustion engine can be adapted to other fuels.

    Let us know if the inclusion of the extra resistor wired in parallel solves the problem with codes P0201 . . . . P0204.

    I am curious as to how the engine starts in extremely cold weather in the winter time. At -10 deg C will the engine start on propane or do you have to start on gasoline first, let the engine warm up and then switch to propane?
     
    #15 AllanC, May 16, 2020
    Last edited: May 16, 2020
  16. FRANZID

    FRANZID Member

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    Good afternoon! At any time of the year, the engine’s cycle does not change, the gas reducer is connected by pipes to the engine cooling system, in my case it is connected by tees to the cabin heating system, the engine warms up to a certain temperature on average 30-40 degrees Celsius, after which it switches to gas. The temperature is set programmatically, depending on the region and climatic zone, I live in the south and in winter we rarely have minus temperatures, I’m set to switch to gas at 35 degrees Celsius, for optimal fuel economy and emissions.

    As soon as they invite, I will definitely inform you and try to photograph everything.
     
  17. AllanC

    AllanC Well-Known Member

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    So the system is designed to switch automatically once the engine reaches a certain operating temperature. That really makes driving easier as you do not have to remember to switch from petrol to LPG and receive the fuel cost savings. Thanks for the information about how the system works.

    Looking forward to hearing that this fix was successful.
     
  18. FRANZID

    FRANZID Member

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    Hello! Last week, as agreed, he arrived at the gas equipment service center. The specialist, in my scheme, installed resistance with a power of 100 ohms for each nozzle in parallel. Why is it 100th and not 10th, if the resistance of the gas injector is 12 ohms, gas 2? Because the temperature in the engine compartment is high, and at high ambient temperatures, simple resistors "lose their constant component" and the resistance becomes less. Also, when operating gasoline injectors, the resistance is not constant, it fluctuates depending on the engine speed. Therefore, it was decided to install resistors with a resistance of 100 ohms and a power of 2 watts. The error on the dashboard went off after a run of less than one kilometer and no longer lights up, 4 days have already passed. Immediately after installation, I decided not to publish, because I wanted to check that everything was fine.
    1.jpg 2.jpg 3.jpg 4.jpg 5.jpg 6.jpg
     
  19. AllanC

    AllanC Well-Known Member

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    Strongly disagree with this statement. As engine speed changes the injector control circuit is turning on and off more frequently. But this does not affect resistance directly. As more current flows through the circuit more heat is generated and this can directly affect circuit resistance.

    In a parallel circuit as resistance is added the total resistance of the circuit decreases. Lower total resistance allows a higher inductive spike when the circuit is turned off. The ECU logic sees the higher inductive spike and is satisfied that the circuit is functioning properly so the diagnostic code and the malfunction lamp no longer lights up.

    The technician specialist did a good job on installation and protecting the additional wiring. You are fortunate to find someone that does a proper job. Glad that the problem has been fixed. Thanks for the update and the pictures.
     
  20. FRANZID

    FRANZID Member

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    Thanks for the clarification on the operation of the nozzles, I thought otherwise.
     

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