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Giulia Coupe

Discussion in 'Fiat News & Rumors' started by AlfaCuda, Sep 18, 2017.

  1. AlfaCuda

    AlfaCuda Active Member

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  2. KrisW

    KrisW Active Member

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    Interesting. It's a logical extension to the range, and it's going to be a lot cheaper to engineer than a wagon would be. Giulia sales appear to be doing well, so this model may have been waiting for sales of the regular car to hit a certain level before it was approved for production.

    2018 delivery means that the work must be almost done on this by now. Even without seeing any mules, that's quite possible as the major changes would be body panels and some interior changes..
     
  3. pumadog

    pumadog Active Member

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    Isn't a wagon much easier to do than a coupé? 4-door vs. 2-door structure, just a bigger boot. As long as we think of coupé = 2-door.

    But I don't have much trust in AN's knowledge. European media says that the other SUV are next, Reid Bigland says that they have to go after the biggest sales volumes first… A coupé then?
     
  4. KrisW

    KrisW Active Member

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    There was a reference to an report here recently where an Audi spokesperson said developing the A4 Avant from the A4 cost them about 50% of the cost of developing a new model from scratch.

    Part of the cost is that a wagon has a much larger rear opening, and it's a full-height hatch, not a bootlid (where metalwork between the bootlid and rear window can be used to brace the rear body) so that means the entire rear-section of the body has to be re-engineered to be stiffer. Plus, wagons will have higher unladen and laden weights, which means more changes to suspension and ride, and crash safety too - even unladen, a wagon is heavier than a sedan, and that means more momentum in a crash test.

    On the other hand, Coupés are within the same dimensions as their sedan version - smaller and lighter, with fewer openings (no rear doors). Gross vehicle weight for a coupé is lower, partly because it has less luggage space but also because doors are pretty heavy. The loss of those two doors makes a coupé's body much more rigid, and as it's already lighter, they should be as crash-safe as the donor model without additional engineering being needed..


    There is a coupé project at Alfa, but it's Project 963, for a compact coupé and spider pair. The target was claimed to be the Jaguar F-Type, which has a 2622 mm (103") wheelbase - Giulia is 2820 mm (111").

    Other "open" project codes are:
    961 - full-size car (e.g., BMW 5, Audi A6, Infiniti Q70, Jaguar XF, Mercedes E-Class).
    962 - Sub-compact SUV (e.g., X1 / Q3)
    963 - Midsize coupé/spider, as above.
    964 - Large SUV (X5 / Q7)
    965 - compact hatchback - Giulietta replacement (due 2020; 962 is expected to pick up the slack in the meantime)

    Previous projects:
    949 - Stelvio (2017)
    952 - Giulia (2016)
    960 - 4C (2014)
    940 - Giulietta (2010)
     
  5. pumadog

    pumadog Active Member

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    When I see the numbers again… did the Stelvio keep the number from the previous development on C-EVO aka Alfa Cherokee or even Kamal (2003)? Already the Mito from 2008 is AR955.

    Regarding the coupé – I expect Alfa to come up with a standalone coupé/spider model and not a 2-door Giulia. At least as separate as Brera/Spider from the 159. While I'd love a 4-seater convertible by Alfa.
     
  6. KrisW

    KrisW Active Member

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    I think logic may be too much to ask for. If the project codes are sequential at all (which they may not be), it looks like some projects get resurrected after a long, long, sleep: The 2007 8C Competitizione is Project 920. Before 1996, a different numbering scheme was used, which seemed to mirror FIAT's project codes (Alfa 164 was "Type 164").

    I'm as surpised as you are about MiTo's project code being so "new". I think it shows just how delayed some models have been. Mito is a model that started development in about 2006 (according to Alfa's own press releases), and there was never a previous "B-Hatchback" project at Alfa that it could hijack, so everything with an earlier number existed at least a decade ago, even if it was only as a row in a database.

    Here's the best list I can find from the Internet of the modern cars (launched after 2000), and stuff that was known to be in development, but got cancelled (in grey and marked with a "?"):

    920 - 8C Competizione, definitely (2007) and Spider, maybe (2010)

    937 - 147 hatchback (2000), and Alfa GT coupé (2004)
    938 ? "Duetto/Spider", possibly based on FIAT Barchetta, and twin to Lancia Fulvietta concept? (cancelled - Alfa Romeo won't return to USA in 2007 (at http://www.autonews.com/article/20031201/SUB/312010782/alfa-romeo-wont-return-to-usa-in-2007 ) )
    939 - 159 (2005)
    940 - Giulietta (2010), originally "149" on FIAT Compact platform, then changed to C-Evo during development
    941 ? Alfa "169"/"Visconti" large FWD (cancelled, would most likely have been on GM Premium, as 159 was )

    944 ? FWD "Giulia" (Cancelled in 2013, replaced with 952 Giulia )


    946 - Brera 2+2 and Spider, both based on 159 (2006)
    947 ? Duetto - co-production with Mazda MX-5; launched as FIAT 124 Spider (2015)
    949 - Stelvio (2017)

    952 - Giulia (2016)

    955 - MiTo (2008)

    960 - 4C (2014)
     
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  7. AlfaCuda

    AlfaCuda Active Member

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    If true a Alfa Coupe would be a dream car for me to own as I currently own 3 classic Alfa Coupes. It Would perfectly complement them.

    Although depending on the price I may have to sell one or even two of mine to be able to afford a new coupe. :(

    I think a coupe is vital for carrying on Alfas historic sporting image. Alfa Romeo has always had a coupe in its post war history except for right now.

    The 4C in concept is a different animal to the traditional Alfa Coupes; being a focused and raw driving tool. Alfa Coupes have tended to lean on to the Gran Tourismo ethos which the 4C is definitely not.

    Also historically Alfa Coupes have been the most beautifully styled cars within their range starting with the 1900 Sprints to 750/101 Series Giulietta, 105 Giulias, Alfettas, Sud Sprints, 916 GTV to Brera. And therefore I am hoping they get the style right so as to continue the lineage. Although the current Giulia sedan, Stelvio and 4C are all good looking cars I wouldn't call any of them "beautiful".

    Those coupes were all styled and often built by outside Carrozzeria. Today everything seems to be done in house. Again while Centro Stile products have been "good" and interesting even none have been gorgeous and stunning as in the past.
     
  8. AlfaCuda

    AlfaCuda Active Member

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    Isn't the Brera more or less a short wheel base, shorter, lower 159?
    Last week I drove a Brera for two days after a long while. It reconfirmed my image of it as not as even half as resolved as a 159 on which it's based upon. In terms of driving. Style though is another thing altogether.
     
  9. Muther

    Muther Well-Known Member

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    Ralph Gilles (FCA global design chief) is considered one of, if not THE leading design chief worldwide.

    He owns a pristine 1969 Alfa Romeo GTV Junior, if that helps. One of the prettier Alfa's IMO.
     
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  10. pumadog

    pumadog Active Member

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    Yes, of course. And all Giorgio Alfas will share some elements of course. So I expect a possible new coupé with an own name, at least that different to the Giulia, better with more own elements like the AR916. The other direction would be a simply "cut" frameless 2-door, lower roof Giulia, like BMW 3 series coupés in the past. A bit boring.

    @KrisW thanks for that list! Still strange if they skipped the Giulia number already before the Mito project started. I remember the postponing of the Giulietta from at least 2007.
     
  11. M.O.D.

    M.O.D. Active Member

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  12. quadamage76

    quadamage76 Active Member

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    I think they don't want to drain customers from purchasing Stelvio.
     
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  13. KrisW

    KrisW Active Member

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    A Giulia Coupé would not take sales from Stelvio, but a Giulia Wagon would have.
     
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  14. M.O.D.

    M.O.D. Active Member

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    I strongly disagree

    populate your showrooms and more people will come in.

    Offer more variants and more people come.

    People who wouldn't otherwise have considered a Stelvio would come in to see the Giulia Wagon, and possibly walk home with a Stelvio instead.
    People who would have come in to see a Stelvio and walked home because it did not fit their needs, would possibly stay and get a wagon instead.

    Stelvio is not a wagon, nowhere near a wagon.

    All manufacturers reason this way. Often with multiple choices across several brands.

    only Fiat first and FCA now have been religiously following their rubbish policy of "avoiding product cannibalisation" which has been proven wrong time and time again.

    The reality is that FCA's beancounters keep canning products as they base their decisions on wrong inputs from Sales and Marketing forecasts.

    This was true 25 years ago (when Fiat's sales decline started), was true 20 years ago (when they started to kill Lancia) and it's true now (when they are seriously jeopardising their own plans for Chrysler, Alfa and all)
     
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  15. KrisW

    KrisW Active Member

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    Making a wagon would have cost nearly as much as making the Stelvio, and had nothing like the reach. Wagons are popular in a part of the European market, roughly North of the Alps and East of the Rhine ("Germanic" and "Slavic" Europe), but in major markets like France, Spain, Italy, or anywhere outside of Europe, wagon sales are tiny.

    For a maker like Alfa that will sell a lot of cars in Italy and wants to sell a lot of cars in the USA to invest in a model that has limited appeal in both places would be foolish, but a car like Stelvio has global appeal.

    If Giulia surpasses expectations, you'll see a Giulia wagon, but it's an expensive project, and could really only be considered if Giulia made big inroads into the UK and German markets, because those are the only significant buyers of wagons.

    In contrast, a coupé is cheaper to engineer, and has global appeal. And more importantly, you can charge more of a premium for a coupé than for a wagon.
     
  16. M.O.D.

    M.O.D. Active Member

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    again, disagree.

    There are way more wagons than sedans on Italian roads.

    A4, 3-series, Passat, Octavia, etc. are mainly sold as wagon.

    True that hatchbacks and city cars make bigger numbers, but wagons are still the bulk of sales, with non-negligible sales also in lower size (Focus, Tipo, Astra, etc.)
     
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  17. AlfaCuda

    AlfaCuda Active Member

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    Agreed. Purely from observation in the Northern part of Italy, wagons seem to outnumber sedans.
     
  18. BASONE88

    Supporter

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    I believe FCA is doing it right. It is one thing to marginalize the cost (millions) of a platform thru sharing - but there has to be enough distinction. It is quite another to cannibalize sales by having products too similar. Not to mention recall issues - multiplied. And marginalized-quality-perception..
    chrysler-tc-ad.jpg
    This was perceived as just a LeBaron(worst case scenario).
     
  19. Lampredi

    Lampredi Active Member

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    I fear that this line of reasoning might eventually doom the 965 Alfa Romeo Giulietta replacement, because FCA might claim that the 962 Jeep Romeo "Sub-compact SUV" is sufficient to cover this segment of buyers, or it might lose sales to the 965, which is therefore axed...
     
  20. KrisW

    KrisW Active Member

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    ... you're assuming 965 will be a hatchback. There is nothing to suggest this will be the case. Alfa only made its first proper hatchback in 2000, abd Giulietta is only its second, so what "tradition" are we speaking of?
    A successor to the Sud would replace Giulietta without stepping on the toes of a smaller CUV.

    (all speculation, by the way... Just pointing out that with limited information, a range of things are equally possible)
     

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