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Goodbye Hemi and the 300c?

Discussion in 'Mopar News' started by CDJSalesPro, Nov 7, 2019.

  1. aldo90731

    Level III Supporter

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    Like everything else, the number one goal has become to meet CAFE numbers, not delivering real-life fuel savings to consumers.
     
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  2. hmk123

    Level III Supporter

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    To answer your question: my personal experience of my neighbor giving his two BMWs a break for two failed transmissions and excusing it with him not being able to drive them at proper Autobahn speeds. An FCA product he would have written off as a POS.
     
  3. patfromigh

    patfromigh Well-Known Member

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    The 2.0 Four with the BSG easily beats the Pentastar V6 for for fuel economy when driven correctly. Some drivers shut the system off right away thinking it's a regular start/stop. Tromping on the gas from standstill seems to negate any fuel savings as well. I let the BSG start and roll the vehicle first by lifting my foot off the brake pedal and waiting for the tach to show some life before pressing the gas.

    Now about the ZF 9-speed. Other brands have used it as well and it has proven problematic in those brands as well. I have been a lifelong buyer of Chrysler products and love their products, but I also recognize they have the worst dealer network in the industry. Combining a problematic transmission with an inept service network is a recipe for disaster. Yes, there are good CDJR dealer service centers out there, but I've been burned too many times and now go to an independent garage.
     
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  4. valiant67

    valiant67 ...

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    This "other brands have trouble with the 9 speed too" is simply deflection.
    FCA chose ZF to supply the transmission (actually I believe ZF technically supplied the design which Chrysler modified, probably cost-reduced, but doesn't seem to have improved the behavior).
    The 9 speed is too much of a gamble. Will it behave or not? If FCA isn't providing updates, the dealer service department can't do anything.
    Yet the 8 speed with similar background is a nice transmission.
     
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  5. aldo90731

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    The issue with the 2.0T is that, as with most turbos these days, they are designed primarily to game CAFE evaluation, secondarily to deliver real-life fuel savings.

    Fuelly.com shows that JL owners with the 3.6 V6 are getting 18.2 MPG; with the 2.0T are getting 17.9!
     
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  6. Chase300

    Chase300 Well-Known Member

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    Well to me its design is going to result in more harsh shifts...its uses a dog clutch!
    Its a different design from the ZF 8-speed...so you should not expect it to operate the same.
    Its like to me a DCT. You have to understand how they work and realize they are not like a conventional auto. DCT's like the ZF 9-speed are going to have some differences. I think Europeans are more aware of this having had them for many years, but here in the US they are all pretty new and the problem was they were sold as the same as a common auto trans.
     
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  7. valiant67

    valiant67 ...

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    I'm not even talking about the shifts where the dog clutches are in use. I'm talking about ridiculously harsh 1- 2 or 2-1 shifts, which are simply traditional shifts not involving the dog clutches (as I understand the design). It is worse that any "

    Here's what I expect: I expect FCA to deliver a transmission that can shift without making the people in your car think someone hit the back of your car (9 speed) or that don't burn up in city traffic (DDCT).
    If FCA can't deliver on this, then they need to select different vendors.
     
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  8. Dave Z

    Dave Z It's me, Dave
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    EPA tests are real-world in that they are done on real engines under real conditions. However, if you have a powerful turbo four and you drive it like a sports car, you will get the same mileage as in a V8 sports car.

    I had a 2.2 Turbo III Spirit R/T. I could get 31 mpg on a tankful, driving it like it was a 3.0 V6 car. I could also get 12 mpg on a tankful, driving it like it was a Corvette.
     
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  9. jessie

    jessie Member

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    The rule of thumb for boosted engines is double the displacement at 10 PSI boost. So your 2L will basically burn the same fuel as a 4L WOT.
     
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  10. duster92

    duster92 Well-Known Member

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    Same deal with PT Cruiser GT. Driving in boost range will result in a sudden drain on your wallet.
     
  11. Chase300

    Chase300 Well-Known Member

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    I think your expectations are totally reasonable and I would agree with you.
    I will say that FCA's choice to go with the ZF 8-speed is why I bought my Durango and to date I've not been disappointed with it....but I have not had any issue with auto transmissions. The only ones I've broken are standard shift 5-speeds.
     
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  12. Zagnut27

    Zagnut27 Jeepaholic

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    Drain on wallet and increase in fun are usually intertwined. It’s an age old battle, really. :D
     
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  13. James A

    James A Active Member

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    So if we replace V8's with smaller displacement turbo engines for better fuel economy but then drive them as the sports cars that they were intended to be... we end up with the same fuel economy... or worse. Great. I got worse MPG from an EcoBoost mustang than I do with my Pentastar and the Dodge is much more refined of a drive. Yea the sports mode on the Ecoboost is more powerful but it's not as good of a drive. Less power but smoother power band and generally a nice pull on the Pentastar. Sometimes I feel a lag but I'm not complaining. Honestly, the T6 may be the drivers choice, but if the next-gen large cars come with the 5.7 (as I've heard they will) then I'm going with that.
     
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  14. mopar22

    mopar22 Well-Known Member

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    Wont matter to fca as long as the epa rating is higher then the current engines. It would take a lot to actually consistently get worse mpg witha trubo engine over a v6/v8. I romp on my gti more so then the dart and cherokee and get better gas mileage overall. If i don't romp on it at all i blow the dart(2.4) and cherokee(v6) away. There's more to it then just a trubo/supercharger. It about how refined that engine is and how it carries itself
     
  15. James A

    James A Active Member

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    I would expect the GTI to get better MPG than a Cherokee so there is no revelation in that. I don't even see them as comparable. Wouldn't the DSG in the GTI facilitate better MPG than the 6 speed auto in the Dart? Was the Dart a comparable sporty car? I'm under the impression that it isn't but school me if I'm wrong here.
     
  16. eaglecars

    eaglecars Well-Known Member

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    I digress a little, but...lemme pause here... YOU HAD A SPIRIT R/T?!?!? awesome. :)

    As for sports applications of turbo 4's...yes, I have a similar, though less extreme experience!!! One advantage of the V8 is the low-rpm torque. Sure, eventually we'll just have an electric assist to offset the ever-milder turbo lag, but then that adds weight. Speaking of weight, somehow, despite my car's low weight (under 2700 lbs), the new Miata can outperform my car while getting even better fuel economy thanks, in part, to weighing at least 300 lbs less and not even needing a turbo.
     
  17. Mastertech63

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    With the A/C on and after running 13.90s at the track:D
     
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  18. hmk123

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    Looking at JD Powers one more time:
    2019 U.S. Sales Satisfaction Index (SSI) Study | J.D. POWER (at https://www.jdpower.com/business/press-releases/2019-us-sales-satisfaction-index-ssi-study )

    Doesn't this mean there is for example a 5.8% difference between Buick (top) and Dodge (third from the bottom)? What does that mean in real world problems?

    And who would have thought that Alfa is ahead of BMW and Audi and that Genesis is at the bottom? But again, if there is like a 5% difference for example will that really mean someone is a lot more dissatisfied with Brand A versus Brand B?
     
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  19. mopar22

    mopar22 Well-Known Member

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    The reason i compare them is because it was the last 2 cars we drove. The dart (gt, so the most "sporty" one you can get) should be easily able to get to or beat the gti in city and highway but even when i'm romping on it and driving faster it's no where near the same mpg. Another reason i threw in the cherokee was because both cars have damn near the same size interior volume. Even the manual gti can get the same as the dsg
     
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  20. Mr. Fusion

    Mr. Fusion Active Member

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    The spread between first and last today is probably smaller than the spread between first and second in the 1960s. I think this lack of perspective can be harmful (perception-wise) to some of the manufacturers on that list. Not that manufacturers shouldn't strive for higher quality (especially FCA), but let's just say there is nothing about that index that would compel me to want a Toyota over something else.
     
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