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Hello all

Discussion in 'LH: Large Cars, 1993-2004' started by jim thompson, May 4, 2016.

  1. jim thompson

    jim thompson New Member

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    Howdy ya'll my name's Jim I I'm hopeing this site is not one of those type you have to pay to join if you want to get real information that helps with your repairs I believe that a little knowledge should be shared when it helps a fellow human being who would have the gumption to fix something him/herself that being said my problem is as such I have a 99 Dodge intrepid 2.7 base model the water pump went and off I went into the motor simple thing to do I thought. Aligned all marks up buttoned things back up and started the car,"it started"! Then there was the chatter from the passenger (left facing car) side, tensioner click? Paid for a couple of those even bought one of those blocks thinking it would help with the tick, nope. Now doing all that decided maybe timming was off I went back and reset it truthfully I have been in the motor more than I've wanted too but as luck would have it thinking I may have bent some valves I proceed to take the heads off what the heck it's a 20 year old car the head gaskets probably need changed anyway right! No big deal
    Now I have the heads off and noticed that the mark on the crank sprocket might not really be aligned with the triangle that's use to time the Chrysler 2.7 engine that's in this car..., so my query is is it possible to set the crank timing to 60° ATDC with heads removed? Also with cams removed how do you reset them do all valves stay closed or are some open? I need help badly this is my only car any help greatly appreciated


    [​IMG] [​IMG]
    here are images of where I thought valves were hitting and how off my timing marks are
     
  2. ImperialCrown

    ImperialCrown Moderator
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    Welcome to Allpar. This may get moved to the LH section as it will likely turn into a technical discussion.
    The 2002 LH service manual should be similar to 1999. It is here (large 61mb file):
    http://oskin.ru/pub/chrysler-dodge/manuals/Service Manuals/2002_LH_300M_Concorde_Intrepid/02lhe.pdf
    Chapter 9 is engine. Valve timing begins on p. 9-76. There are plated links on the chains that are brighter than the adjacent links. The cam chains have 12 link pins between the cam marks as shown on fig. 113. Have the cam chains lined up and ready to go before installing the heads on the block. Timing chain marks are shown on fig. 116.
    There is a special tool (8186) used to collapse the chain tensioner. It pokes into a hole to release the tensioner ratchet. Oil will leak out as it compresses. If it does not release, replace the tensioner.
    The rubber-backed chain guides wear faster than the hardened chain. If the paths are grooved, replace them.
    Follow the service manual removal and installation procedure in the given order for best results.
    I have seen intake valves bend from jumped timing. Set the heads upside-down on a bench with the spark plugs installed. Pour water into each combustion chamber and wait a couple of hours to see what has leaked out. If it is leaking out of the intake ports, the intake valves are bent and will need replacement. Same for the exhaust, although I have never come across bent exhaust valves on these.
    If coolant was circulating with the engine oil for any length of time, inspect the rod and main bearings for pitting or scoring. Clean the inside if the oil pan thoroughly.
    When setting the heads back on, have none of the pistons at TDC just so that nothing hits while reassembling the engine. You can move things around when you get to aligning the chain marks.
    A 2.7L DOHC V6 is a learning curve the first time through. Follow the procedure in the service manual and you be successful.
    Change the oil and filter again after about 600 miles to be sure that no coolant or debris is still in the crankcase.
     
  3. chuzz

    chuzz Allpar Legacy

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    I will welcome you to Allpar. I can't answer any questions about the 2.7, as I've never owned nor worked on one. Imperial Crown is a very tech savvy guy and has helped a LOT of members here. Follow his advice and you should be just fine. He knows his stuff!
     
  4. jim thompson

    jim thompson New Member

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    Hey thanks for the reply Imperialcrown and Chuzz remarkably I have tried the water on the heads upside down test of course I will try again with plugs screwed in had paper towel ball in before and it took 2 hours to see any change not to bad for having paper in the plug holes! Was just concerned about being able to also turn the crank to timing mark and then installing the heads. Looking at my photos does it appear that the timing is aligned? Thanks again.
     
  5. jim thompson

    jim thompson New Member

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    [​IMG] Oh my piston chamber pic didn't post this is that test it was done with tissue but held for two hours
     
  6. ImperialCrown

    ImperialCrown Moderator
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    I would keep the crankshaft off of TDC while installing the heads. You don't want piston at TDC if a valve is fully extended, they will hit.
    Keep both head cam chain plated links and sprocket marks at TDC when installing the heads. Have the spark plugs out for easy turning.
    After the heads are installed, then move the crankshaft 'cautiously' to TDC by hand. If you meet any resistance in turning the crank, STOP and review the situation. If something does 'bump' into something else, then something isn't properly timed.
    Then proceed with installing the timing chain and guides. The engine turns clockwise, so keep the 'pull' side of the chain taut. The compressed tensioner installs on the relaxed side of the chain. Don't try to force an extended tensioner into place.
    After installation, review all that the plated chain links are at the marks. Then rotate the engine by hand 2 full revolutions. The plated links will no longer line up with the marks after this, but the sprocket marks should all be as shown in the service manual drawing.
     
  7. jim thompson

    jim thompson New Member

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    Thanks ImperialCrown will keep you updated on progress!
     
  8. jim thompson

    jim thompson New Member

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    [​IMG] Oh my piston chamber pic didn't post this is that test it was done with tissue but held for two hours[/QUOTE]
    [​IMG] With the heads pulled I have noticed that I will probably be better of junking car the heads are all pitted as well as the valves or will a machine shop fix or maybe not you're opinion please
     
  9. jim thompson

    jim thompson New Member

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    ImperialCrown thinking of pulling heads from a junkyard car is that smart or not?
     
  10. ImperialCrown

    ImperialCrown Moderator
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    Aluminum surface pitting is common. I use a 3M Roloc disc to remove the pitting in an even, swirling pattern. Good tutorial here:

    The pitting usually happens when old coolant becomes corrosive and attacks the metal. It can also happen if the wrong coolant is used. Use a HOAT coolant that meets Chrysler's MS-9769, like Zerex G-05.
    If you can find a set of heads in better shape on a motor that didn't jump time, get them if it makes it easier for you.
    Many head leaks occur when the coolant passes across the pitted surface. Different metals (steel gasket) with an acidic coolant will act like a 'battery' and eat the aluminum. It is called Galvanic corrosion:
    Galvanic corrosion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
  11. jim thompson

    jim thompson New Member

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    Hey thanks ImperialCrown helpful info in the video. Also helpful about boneyard heads thanks again I will keep hitting at this snake!
     
  12. jim thompson

    jim thompson New Member

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    Back with an update on my progression. Having arrived at the decision to fix the heads myself due to not finding in the boneyard, I proceeded to remove the valves to spin in a drill to confirm bending. Lo and behold neither intake or exhaust valves wobbled!? Now I know folks will flip but my plan now is to simply replace valve stem seals to stop the smoking exhaust clean the heads replace gaskets button up make sure my timings right and be done. Meanwhile there are a couple scratches on the cylinder head surface wondering if it needs machined or not and also some of the burnt oil won't come off a few of the valves any ideas of what I can use being as they're not that bad [​IMG] http://i.imgur.com/37qPAbj.jpg this other image is of marks caused when removing head can anyone see them in the right hand side of the image http://i.imgur.com/0gcXIry.jpg
     
  13. GLHS60

    GLHS60 Well-Known Member

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    Good idea to hand lap the valves while you're in there unless you already mentioned it.

    Thanks
    Randy
     
  14. ImperialCrown

    ImperialCrown Moderator
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    I've used a wire-wheel on a bench grinder to clean up cooked-on oil and carbon deposits off of valves.
    You want to refinish the head gasket mating surfaces with a 3m Roloc bristle disc. This should smooth out most imperfections like pitting and scratches. The circular swirl (non-directional) finish will provide the best sealing surface for reassembly.
     
  15. jim thompson

    jim thompson New Member

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    And the Roloc will for sure get these out or are they in a place that does no real harm? [​IMG]
     
  16. jim thompson

    jim thompson New Member

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    Is it tough to hand lap Randy or is it as easy as it sounds anything special needed?
     
  17. GLHS60

    GLHS60 Well-Known Member

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    Very easy and inexpensive to do.

    Any time I want to check/use a used head I hand lap each valve individually.

    This gives me a chance to check/clean/reseal etc. the entire head.

    Occasionally if I come across a bad guide/seat/valve etc. I bring in the clean otherwise refreshed head to a shop and have the offending issue corrected. Not all shops want to do a seat or guide or two but many will if the head is otherwise clean.

    Thanks
    Randy

    Hand lapping video:

    [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  18. GLHS60

    GLHS60 Well-Known Member

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    That's a random video I found, I do one at a time, remove, clean, lap, install new seal, assemble and move on to the next one.

    You're looking to see how the valve and seat match, there should be a solid lapping ring around each valve and seat face. Any low spots will not "lap" and are problem areas.

    If all lap good and are assembled correctly you will have a known good head.

    Any time a valve/spring/retainer/locks are assembled its a good idea to tap the exposed valve stem with a brass drift to ensure the locks are seated. Occasionally one flys apart when tapped and needs reassembled.
    Imagine if it flew apart while the engine was running!!

    Best of luck, 2.7's are like a fine watch, if everything is assembled correctly they run beautifully but aren't very tolerant of incorrect cam timing or chain tensioner issues.

    I.C. has it well covered in his posts, especially the chain tensioner !!!
    Thanks
    Randy
     
  19. jim thompson

    jim thompson New Member

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    Oh okay this I can handle thanks for the information
     
  20. jim thompson

    jim thompson New Member

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    Thanks again!!! I can locate I.C. how? Members search?
     

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