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Is this the Grand Wagoneer?

Discussion in 'Rumors and Speculation' started by Jtecho, Oct 12, 2017.

  1. DAGAR

    DAGAR Active Member

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    What will be interesting to see is if the Jeep Grand Wagoneer magic of the past can turn the new model into the "gotta have it" vehicle that the original became when it was deemed country club chic.... If so, this all works beautifully and Grand Wagoneer gets cross shopped with Range Rover and Escalade successfully and that cachet carries over to Wagoneer giving it an edge against the Tahoe and Yukon. This could also not happen and then we'll all say wth were they thinking?! :(
     
  2. DarkSky

    DarkSky Moderator
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    The market conditions are perfect for this vehicle. I think it will be a major success, but we'll just have to see.
     
    VoiceOfReason likes this.
  3. Erik Latranyi

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    I find Jeep to be more cool than Ford or Chevy, but the buying public does not. If you want to argue with data, go ahead. You can also argue with rain clouds.

    The Wagoneer/Grand Wagoneer have a tough hill to climb. If the styling is "large Grand Cherokee" rather than more heritage styling, it might miss the nostalgia of the old versions.

    But, time will tell and I am rooting for success.
     
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  4. aldo90731

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    Unfortunately, “cool” does little to help influence opinion. A conversation of “cool” parallels the conversation about selling on “excitement” that was going on on the Future of Chrysler thread. The market dynamics remain the same: buyers act on their need for durability, safety and overall value. “Cool” only comes into play only after those three consumer needs have been satisfied.

    The Jeep brand is the strongest CDJRF owns. So it is easy to lose perspective.

    Granted, for Jeep to achieve brand opinion of 20 with participation in only 50% of the market, it has to be stronger than Nissan’s 20 with participation in 100% of the market.

    But I am sorry to say that doesn’t make Jeep = 40 (i.e., 20 / 50%). Unfortunately, that’s not how the brand opinion math works.

    Wrangler and Grand Cherokee determine consumers’ opinion of Jeep brand overall. Opinion of Grand Cherokee within its category is in the 22-25 range, which is only halfway to the desired 40 mark.

    Opinion of Wrangler is more difficult to pin down because it truly is in a category of one. Given Wrangler’s interior space and footprint, it normally gets lumped into the Compact CUV category, along with Ford Escape, Honda CR-V, etc. Wrangler’s opinion is in the low 20s as well, primarily because its offroad strengths come at the perceived high cost of dismal fuel economy, harsh ride, uncomfortable interior, sloppy handling, poor safety ratings and questionable reliability.

    Despite Jeep’s vaunted “cool” image, Grand Wagoneer will have to contend with Jeep’s many warts when trying to lure buyers over from GM, Toyota and Ford.

    For 80% of the overall market (100 - 20 = 80), buying a Jeep is simply a tough sell.
     
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  5. DarkSky

    DarkSky Moderator
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    I am not interested in arguing with data, because I find that it is often too vague and doesn't equally represent every niche of the market. But this is a thread about the Grand Commander, not the Grand Wagoneer.
     
  6. Erik Latranyi

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    Let me add that since the Wagoneer/Grand Wagoneer will try to play in the $50,000 to $100,000 range in pricing, you are reaching a point where buyers are really going to think about the money they spend......and the Jeep (FCA) quality and customer service are going to be big, big obstacles here.
     
    aldo90731 likes this.
  7. Erik Latranyi

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    You are right. These posts should go over to the "Is this the Wagoneer" thread
     
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  8. DarkSky

    DarkSky Moderator
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    You're right. ;)
     
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  9. DarkSky

    DarkSky Moderator
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    How did that work for Land Rover which had a poor reputation for reliability but still had successful Range Rovers?
     
  10. valiant67

    valiant67 Rich Corinthian Leather
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    I think Wagoneer has a chance, but it's far from a sure thing.
    I am still amazed by how many people tow their Mopar to an event with a non-Mopar vehicle.
    You see a lot of Suburbans and Expeditions, but even among the pickups there are still a lot of Chevy/GMC or Ford tow vehicles.
     
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  11. Adventurer55

    Adventurer55 Active Member

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    One thing's for sure. Even in the wildest sales forecast they can't retool and vastly update Warren assembly for a few thousand Jeeps. I believe they plan on it being used more for Ram production. I just hope the new Ram is as big of a hit as they hope.
     
  12. BASONE88

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    (Moab, Utah).
     
  13. aldo90731

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    Sure. If you think 76,000 units sold in a 17 million unit market —with record luxury sales— qualifies Land Rover as a “success”.

    What Land Rover has in abundance is brand prestige: i.e., the ability to justify the price premium.
    What Land Rover doesn’t have is demand: i.e., the ability to find enough suckers to buy its products.

    The two interrelate, but are two very different things.

    Grand Wagoneer is going to have to do both: (1) find enough takers who (2) are willing to pay the price premium.

    With Jeep's opinion at 20, I don't see that happening.
     
    #53 aldo90731, Dec 15, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 15, 2017
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  14. CherokeeVision

    CherokeeVision Well-Known Member

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    Grand Cherokee (ZJ, WJ and the rest) took Jeep to another level in terms of ride quality, interior comfort and image compared to its other models.
    Based only on numbers and statistics Jeep never should have succeeded.

    I believe Jeep can succeed with Wagoneer and Grand Wagoneer.
    But to do it they need to have the proper mix, the correct formula of control between technology and driver.
    If they numb the driving experience, dumb down the choices the driver can make it will be a boring vehicle.
    It will flop.
    It has to be set up where the driver can exercise a little bit of that American spirit. Freedom.
    I know I'm talking about the vehicles soul.
    I hope the powers that be at Jeep believe in that.
     
  15. aldo90731

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    The key ingredient ZJ and WJ had was that it stuck to the tried and true Jeep formula. It was pretty much a TJ underneath —i.e., solid axles, QuadraCoil suspension, 4.0L Inline six, torque-actuated 4WD systems— but wrapped in a unibody suit. The original Grand Cherokees were in many ways the true successor of the original Wagoneer.

    Fast forward 25 years: Grand Cherokee —and upcoming Grand Wagoneer— is closer to a Mercedes-Benz E-Class 4-Matic Wagon than to a Jeep. Which does wonders to grow sales and fatten FCA pockets, but does little to carry the Jeep capability and heritage.

    Today’s spiritual successor to the original Wagoneer would probably be a JL Sahara, with 4 doors, solid axles, available torque-actuated SelecTrac and LSD, many available comfort features, and the ability to fit traction tires.
     
    #55 aldo90731, Dec 16, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2017
  16. aldo90731

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    Yup. But an immediate hit is no guarantee of a sustainable hit, as Cherokee is demonstrating.
     
  17. aldo90731

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    This would be similar to why people buy Avalons, Tauruses and Maximas: they are totally sold on the brand, and want to buy something from that brand that is above and beyond what everyone else already drives.

    These customers are very profitable, but exist in very small numbers. Which is perfectly fine, as long as Jeep plans on Grand Wagoneer being a small seller.
     
    #57 aldo90731, Dec 16, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2017
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  18. Dave Z

    Dave Z It's me, Dave
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    hence the Chrysler version
     
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  19. aldo90731

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    Yup. But Commander was labeled a “failure” because it didn’t sell in large numbers. Just like Dart and 200 were labeled “failures” because they got axed after a few months in the market.

    A nameplate is a financial asset that grows in value and generates a stream of revenue and profits over time. It is FCA’s job to protect the reputation of its nameplates and the value of its assets.

    FCA will need to manage internal and external expectations as to what Grand Wagoneer’s role is, to protect the value and reputation of the nameplate.
     
    #59 aldo90731, Dec 16, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 16, 2017
  20. DarkSky

    DarkSky Moderator
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    The Commander wasn't a bad vehicle, but the market wasn't favorable for large SUVs when it came out. That has changed. We already know why the Dart and 200 were discontinued and it doesn't really apply to the Grand Wagoneer...unless the market suddenly turns against SUVs.
     

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