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Is this the next-gen Renegade?

Discussion in 'Mopar News' started by Dave Z, Dec 29, 2017.

  1. aldo90731

    Level III Supporter

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    Unlike Europe, we get no widespread “incentives” to choose diesel in North America, though.

    Specific diesel applications, like on pickups and Wranglers, are expected to sell on their own merit —and at a hefty premium.

    Renegade simply cannot justify that type of price premium over here.
     
    #21 aldo90731, Jan 2, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
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  2. Erik Latranyi

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    Diesel is not very appealing as you said, due to VAG, but also because diesel is priced higher in most US states than gasoline. So, there is no real payback even with the better fuel economy.

    I hope FCA thinks 3 times before offering a GME T3 here. 3 cylinder engines have not been successful when tried in the US. I am not sure if it was just the implementations or if people find 3 cylinders as a weird number versus 4.

    Given that spy shot of the refreshed Renegade has a hood intake, I hope it is a smaller version of the GME T4.
     
  3. Deckard_Cain

    Deckard_Cain Active Member

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    You get widespread "incentives" to choose gas over diesel since your government doesn't tax fuel based on CO2 emissions. If you had taxes on gas consumptin based on CO2 emissions you would see diesel becoming cheaper than gas, and diesel engines would have been a thing over there as well.
    Diesel is discouraged over there because of NOx emissions (which are linked to health issues).

    In Europe gas is discouraged through higher taxes than diesel because the regulators focused on the CO2 emissions.
    Don't pretend that the preference for gas guzzling vehicles in the US isn't also a consequence of the preferences of your regulators and lobbyists.
     
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  4. Erik Latranyi

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    Our fuel taxes are levied by both the federal government and the state government. That is why our fuel prices vary by state.

    Some states tax diesel very high because of those "evil" trucks. Others do not.

    Some states tax gasoline much more than other states.

    You are right, we have thrown out many politicians for raising fuel taxes.
     
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  5. valiant67

    valiant67 Rich Corinthian Leather
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    And diesel demand is likely less price sensitive than gasoline demand. So the states that chose to tax diesel higher won't see as much a drop in demand as with gasoline.
     
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  6. Ramburger

    Ramburger Active Member

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    Why does it have to be at a premium? R&D is not a factor since the vehicle is produced already, and many say the new 2.2 will be compliant with the US standards. This is the issue with diesel here, it should not be stuck in premium trims, make it availble across the different trim levels, and the take rate will be much higher. A quick search shows the 2018 Equinox with the diesel is just over 1,600 dollars more than the base gasser. There is no reason the 2.2 could not be introduced here for around a 2k price tag. Rengade starts at $18k base, tack on 2k for the diesel and your have a $20k 40mpg+ suv.
     
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  7. DarkSky

    DarkSky Moderator
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    Realistically though, they would probably require the automatic which would further increase the price. It may even be limited to Latitude and higher trim levels and with certain packages only since diesel is a “premium” option. Probably would end up being around $25k for the base price.
     
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  8. Ramburger

    Ramburger Active Member

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    Thats a problem, IMO. Why Make it a "premium" option? Why make it limited to mid-range models and up? You can get the sport with the auto.
     
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  9. aldo90731

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    The CRD diesel was a $5,000 option on Grand Cherokees and Libertys; the 3.0 EcoDiesel is a $4,500 option on Ram 1500 and Grand Cherokee, and it is likely to be at least that much on JL.

    Regardless of difference in displacement, I just don't see how a diesel will be only a $2,000 option on Renegade.
     
  10. Ramburger

    Ramburger Active Member

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    Hey a guy can dream right? The Ecodiesel in the Ram was a no brainer purchase for me, and IMO is the best all around truck I have ever owned. I have had 35x12.50 20s on it after a month of owning it, and am still turning our 27mpg daily. It has really opened my eyes for small displacement diesel applications in the US.
     
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  11. KrisW

    KrisW Active Member

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    I'd have to get a spreadsheet out to be sure, but by my reckoning, it costs about €1600 in Europe, before taxes, to move from the 1.6 eTorq (cheapest gas engine) to 1.6 diesel in renegade. That's just under $2000 at the moment.

    The VM motor used in Jeep and Ram is a high output, heavy duty engine. It's also a six cylinder, which is always going to be more expensive than a four, especially a small, light duty four.
     
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  12. aldo90731

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    Aren’t vehicles taxed by engine size throughout Europe?
     
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  13. KrisW

    KrisW Active Member

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    Short answer: No.

    Longer answer: Since about the mid-2000s, most countries tax based on the CO2 emissions achieved on the NEDC consumption test. A couple of countries still retain some horsepower-based taxation (specifically Belgium, which charges an extra tax on engines above 165 CV, I think), some give bonuses for certain types of cars and tax others (e.g. France), and some don't tax at all, but countries that used to tax on displacement have all moved to taxing on CO2 by now - the carmakers wanted this change too (it's easier to make a large-displacement engine run efficiently than make a small one more efficient)

    Also, new-car registration taxes in certain countries mean the base-price of some models isn't the same in each country (in order to be competitive on retail-price when registration taxes are added, some models must be sold at a lower base-price in certain countries)

    A summary of each EU country's taxation regime is here: http://www.acea.be/uploads/publications/CO2_tax_overview_2017.pdf
     
    #33 KrisW, Jan 3, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
  14. MJAB

    MJAB Well-Known Member

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    The differences in taxation are one of the reasons why are offered several different powertrain combinations, sometimes tuned for market.

    Always from ACEA, the complete automotive tax guide that is published each year.
    There are data for European Union, EFTA countries, but also Brazil, China, India, Japan, Russia, South Korea, Turkey and the United States.
    http://www.acea.be/uploads/news_documents/ACEA_Tax_Guide_2017.pdf
     
  15. valiant67

    valiant67 Rich Corinthian Leather
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    I don’t work in the automotive industry, but still have seen a trend away from homogeneous regulations. Many countries no longer accept certification from another country. They used to a decade ago. It’s as if the regulatory agency in each country wants to justify its existence by having their own unique certification.
     
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  16. CherokeeVision

    CherokeeVision Well-Known Member

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    Here is my issue with limiting the diesel engine to higher end models.
    It causes an artificial skew to the numbers.

    Customers ask for diesels.
    Research looks at the numbers and figures demand is there.
    Diesels are developed.
    Marketing mistakes customers willingness to spend extra for a diesel as customers will buy anything in order to get a diesel.
    Diesel is only available on high end models with lots of things that have nothing to do with the diesel engine.
    Customers that were willing to spend a certain extra amount for diesel find they can't afford that kind of diesel.
    Management looks at sales (that were artificially constrained) and says there is no market for diesels.
     
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  17. freshforged

    freshforged Well-Known Member

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    No, it’s the fact that each regulatory agency in Europe has been found to fudge the numbers for their domestic output—as demonstrated by the VW diesel scandal. If they can’t trust the numbers the other guys are giving them, they damn well better require certification in their own labs.
     
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  18. Dave Z

    Dave Z It's me, Dave
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    Well, be fair — so far as far as we can tell it’s Germany that’s really been “overlooking” problems, Italy possibly doing it... France seems to have been OK so far.

    As far as the patchwork of taxation... that's part of being in a federal system; states' rights, so to speak. The US could, technically, be like that. Probably would be if they'd had motorcars in the early 1700s.
     
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  19. valiant67

    valiant67 Rich Corinthian Leather
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    As I said, this isn’t automotive design in my case. And for me, it isn’t even the EU that is worst.

    If it were just about not trusting another agency, then spot check for accuracy rather than test from scratch (as lean principles would suggest) but that won’t justify whole agencies.
     
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  20. KrisW

    KrisW Active Member

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    The UK also type-approves a surprising number of models, and has a good reputation as an "honest broker". Just another point: within the EU, it's flat-out illegal to not allow products for sale if they've been approved by another member country as safe/compliant. The single point of approval is a cornerstone of the European Single Market.

    This is drifting off the topic, though.. So... Diesels, and whether they could make it in the US market. Question is, what does a buyer really want when they say they want "a diesel engine"? If it's better fuel economy, it's hard to square that with more expensive fuel, and quite small savings anyway - if fuel in general is cheap, what's a 10-15% difference worth in real dollars, compared with an extra $2000 for the engine.

    If it's better towing/haulage capacity, then the $2000 engine isn't going to deliver what they need.

    I think FCA was here before with the 1.4T engine - "turbo" means "high-performance" to a lot of buyers, but that engine wasn't high-performance in the cars it was fitted to (500 Abarth and 124 excepted). Suggesting something and not delivering it, is a sure way to turn your customers off.
     

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