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Let's speak about the quality in our products and more...

Discussion in 'Rumors and General Chrysler Discussion' started by Mr.Source, Oct 17, 2017.

  1. aldo90731

    Staff Member Level III Supporter

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    Indeed. Perfection doesn't exist. And as you correctly indicate, quality is not static either. The best I can describe it is: quality is an ongoing race with winners and losers. No one expects FCA to be the winner every time, but certainly not the loser every time, either.

    Quality studies give shoppers a measure of risk in the way of a probability of having problems during their future ownership.

    We on this forum are heavily biased towards FCA, its brands and its products, which can make it difficult to view FCA as the world at large sees it. To give us a sense of how the outside world views FCA, below are the typical results of various auto brands as reported by a representative sample of 1,600 new-vehicle purchase intenders in the US. These numbers move very slowly. These in particular were collected in Q3.

    Customers don't specify whether their willingness or unwillingness to recommend is due to product quality, performance or customer service. But the fact that this metric is strongly correlated to quality gives us an indication; and it shows major influence on purchase intention, which in turn impacts sales and profits.

    These results show that neither Toyota nor Honda are perfect; only 1 out of 2 existing owners would recommend those brands. But everything is relative: Jeep, arguably FCA's most promising brand, gets recommended at half that rate. Only 1 in 4 Jeep owners are willing to recommended their brand, the same rate as the Koreans, and well below other domestics.

    This unwillingness to recommend Jeep, in turn, results in lower customer retention and higher incentives needed to sustain sales. Whenever Marchionne brings up margins, he is talking primarily about manufacturing costs, which normally ignores this side of the business.

    [​IMG]
     
    #561 aldo90731, Nov 14, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
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  2. JavelinAMX

    JavelinAMX Well-Known Member

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    @aldo90731

    Once again, thanks for this input.

    The chart is quite meaningful inasmuch as Ford seems to be the demarcation of where the Domestics divide from those who are The Rest of the Pack.

    In an effort to NOT misunderstand the chart : The remaining FCA stable of brands apparently do NOT rise to the level of where Kia is on this chart?

    .
     
  3. mopar22

    mopar22 Well-Known Member

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    Sales/service needs to be the number one fix. When fca cut back on the dealers we lost the best one within a 2 hours drive all because it was teh smallest one. They are such a hit or miss i don't blame people when they don't want to go with fca all because of how they were treated. Hell we go past 2 dealers (one being in our town) just because they're not nice at all compared to the one we go to now.
     
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  4. Zagnut27

    Zagnut27 Jeepaholic

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    Yes. When I bought my Wrangler, it was the first new car I purchased. I had a bad experience with that purchase because the salesman and the manager lied to me. I vowed I would never do business with them again, and I did not. If not for my love of the Jeep brand, I probably would not have done business with another Chrysler dealership again. When it came time to purchase my Liberty, I had a much better experience at a different dealership. But someone who did not have a devotion to a brand like I had to Jeep (& still do), they might not have given the brand a second chance.
     
  5. Doug D

    Doug D Virginia Gentleman

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    The only time we've been back to the dealer is for the airbag recalls on my Ram or state inspection (free since we purchased our vehicles at the dealer). Otherwise I use a local shop or do the work myself.
     
  6. aldo90731

    Staff Member Level III Supporter

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    No, this particular study didn’t include all 37 auto brands, only non-luxury brands deemed most relevant in the US market.

    But based on every other study I have seen that also included Dodge, Chrysler and Fiat, Jeep consistently emerged with the strongest metrics across FCA brands. So, from that standpoint, yes, those brands would very likely have ranked below Kia.

    Ram may have been an interesting brand to include. But it wasn’t because it competes primarily in fullsize pickup, which represents only 8% of the market. Fullsize pickup owners are notorious for their staunch loyalty. At the same time, not having much to offer besides pickups limits Ram owners’ ability to recommend that brand to the other 92% of shoppers not considering a pickup.

    This illustrates the kinds of hoops FCA expects its customers to jump through, yet management seems unperturbed by it.
     
    #566 aldo90731, Nov 14, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
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  7. page2171

    page2171 Well-Known Member

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    That's unfortunate. My experience was different. The bad dealer got cut, the good dealer stayed. I was living in Southern California at the time of the great dealership downsizing. The dealership that screwed up replacing the A/C compressor on my 2002 Grand Caravan was one that got cut. The Chrysler dealer down the street picked up the brands the one that closed had (at least Dodge, don't remember if there were others). When I took my Grand Caravan there because the A/C compressor failed 6 months after having it replaced, they weren't surprised. Apparently I wasn't the only one coming back to get subpar work redone.
     
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  8. JavelinAMX

    JavelinAMX Well-Known Member

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    Even more interesting than before .

    I was a bit surprised that VW was so closely aligned with a group of Asian makes given the purpose of the chart.

    Volkswagen isn't very well liked on this Forum. The graphic seems to put a bit of a shadow on that.

    Not a super important sidebar, yet it is out of sync with some thoughts expressed here previously.

    But Chevrolet and Ford are bracketed by four Asian nameplates. Looking bottom up, that looks like a telltale sign - to yours truly, anyway.


    .
     
  9. aldo90731

    Staff Member Level III Supporter

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    Keep in mind those are current VW owners willing to recommend VW. One could argue that those VW owners needed to have an affinity for VW in order to buy one. A clear distinction from us on this forum, who have an affinity for FCA brands.

    I see three broad groups on that chart:
    1. The 40+ group: Toyota, Honda, Subaru and Chevrolet. These brands excel at customer retention.
    2. The 20-30 group: from Nissan down to Jeep. These brands need to conquest new customers constantly just to sustain sales.
    3. The under 20 group: Kia, and other smaller brands not shown. These are the “emerging” brands.
    Ford lies between groups 1 and 2. Chevrolet has been able to create real differentiation from Ford through significantly improved quality rankings, and well-documented superior customer treatment.

    Interestingly, if we swapped Subaru with Ford, we would have the four best-selling brands in the US.

    I am not surprised to see Nissan where it is. Nissan’s ownership experience, both in terms of product quality and customer service, is completely unremarkable to say the least. Nissan has tried desperately to pass Honda in sales through heavy use of incentives. But every consumer metric I have seen shows the market doesn’t view Nissan in the same league as Honda.
     
    #569 aldo90731, Nov 15, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
  10. JavelinAMX

    JavelinAMX Well-Known Member

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    Extremely interesting.

    This chart is quite telling to me. Approximately one-sixth of Kia owners are gung-ho enough to recommend - and that's at the bottom of the list. That's quite some perspective to other brands.

    Looks like we MUST come here, to Allpar, to hear endorsements of these products; because it looks like it might not be happening enough to make much of a ripple in the real world.

    Anecdotally, I hear positives about Kia far more often than any other on the list - IF Toyota and Honda are discounted.

    Those three generate the most chatter that I hear mouth-to-ear.

    .
     
  11. page2171

    page2171 Well-Known Member

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    I'm curious about Chevy and Ford. I wonder what the percentage of recommenders is for current truck owners vs. current car owners. In my unscientific experience, truck owners seem to be more brand loyal than car owners. So, I'm curious if their percentages are higher because of they sell a bunch of trucks and truck owners seem to be more brand loyal, or is it that their products actually are better.
     
  12. aldo90731

    Staff Member Level III Supporter

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    Yes, most of Chevy and Ford’s recommendation comes from their trucks. Primarily fullsize pickups, but to some extent Suburbans and Tahoes. Most of Jeep’s recommendation comes from Wrangler, and Grand Cherokee a distant second.

    Domestic automakers are much better at building “durability”, which is a sought-after quality in trucks, than at building “reliability”, which is a sought-after quality in cars. Japanese automakers are the opposite.

    Durability is the specific ability to do tough work and withstand abuse; reliability is the more mainstream convenience of long service without need for unforeseen repairs.

    Honda Ridgeline is a good example of mainstream, car-like “reliability” getting little traction in a segment seeking specific truck-like “durability”.

    Consumer Reports illustrates the foolishness of applying mainstream car-like “reliability” to judge the quality of a truck like Wrangler, which owners measure by its specific “durability.”

    A conondrum long facing Jeep is that despite Wrangler’s strong owner loyalty, the very same capabilities that make it a standout durable product, means Wrangler is not mainstream enough for just anyone.

    CUVs, being an category in-between cars and trucks, have been judged by a combination of “reliability” and “durability.” Grand Cherokee being a good example of this.

    However, as automakers increasingly push CUVs to grow sales, the more mainstream CUVs become, the more they will be judged by their “reliability”, and less by their specific “durability.”

    Ram and Wrangler demonstrate FCA can deliver “durability.” But as CUVs become mainstream, and Marchionne keeps pushing for CUVs, FCA products will increasingly be judged by their “reliability”, which is a glaring FCA weakness.
     
    #572 aldo90731, Nov 15, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
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  13. aldo90731

    Staff Member Level III Supporter

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    Life-stage has a clear influence on owner loyalty. Younger buyers are predominantly in their early life stages: single, childless, to a large extent penniless, starting their careers, and in their first new-vehicle acquisition period.

    Because younger buyers:
    1. have limited funds, price, efficiency and packaging play an inordinate role in their purchase decision.
    2. don’t yet have a family, safety plays a lesser role in their decision.
    3. haven’t had a prior new-vehicle ownership experience, they tend to subordinate quality to styling and performance in their decision.
    Reportedly, Kia quality is now well above industry average, and its sales are overshadowing Hyundai’s. But Kia also attracts some of the youngest buyers in the industry with a perfect combination of affordability, efficiency and styling. The fact that Kia owners are younger also means they tend to be less loyal, which likely explains Kia’s lower recommendation numbers.

    To retain a larger share of its owners, Kia’s sustained growth will hinge on attracting a more balanced combination of older and younger buyers. An emphasis on family-oriented products like Optima and Sorento, offering more accomplished products like Stinger, and a reputation for quality —and safety— will help Kia do just that. It just needs to ditch that juvenile hamster marketing campaign.

    BTW, there’s a lesson in all of this for Dodge as well.
     
    #573 aldo90731, Nov 15, 2017
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2017
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  14. RonGD

    RonGD Member

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    FCA or any manufacturer can lose an audience immediately if reliability is not a baseline on product introduction. Speaking as a Jeep Patriot owner, Patriot had issues when introduced. These problems went away in time, with the latter year Pats being a quality product. But the stigma of the early Pats remained in the motoring press deep into the product cycle, which in turn imprints on the consumer.
     
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  15. Ian

    Ian Car Freak

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    I just bought a Patriot, 2012. I love the exterior and interior changes from previous years...but it has to go back to the dealer for the whole suspension to be re-done (front lower control arms, rear upper control arms and toe-links) Stigma stays for real as a Jeep owner (Wrangler) at work said I just bought a Caliber...o_O
     
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  16. RonGD

    RonGD Member

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    That sucks!! I have owned 2 Pats; 2013 and my current 2015 FD II. Never a problem....keeping my fingers and now my toes crossed!
     
  17. Ian

    Ian Car Freak

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    I'm not worried, I bought a Chrysler warranty with it, so I've got it covered.
     
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  18. UN4GTBL

    UN4GTBL Allpar Legacy

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    Sounds all too familiar.

    Amazing that several years after mine, and a refresh later, they can't fix basic things like suspensions.
     
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  19. JavelinAMX

    JavelinAMX Well-Known Member

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    Quick - Tell him how to find Allpar.com

    He can really use it ...

    .
     
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  20. Zagnut27

    Zagnut27 Jeepaholic

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    After all the recalls on the front suspension of my Liberty over the years...it’s a 2003 that I bought in 2002. Funny, I don’t recall any recalls on the rear suspension...cough...solid axle...cough...:D
     
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