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Looking ahead: product pipelines

Discussion in 'Mopar News' started by Dave Z, Dec 22, 2017.

  1. valiant67

    valiant67 Rich Corinthian Leather
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    Notice how everything is a cycle? Decades ago, the midsize sedan was a hot market. It was large enough that the Detroit brands didn’t see the need to seriously battle with the Japanese products known for superior quality (even though it was more perception than reality). Now, FCA has decided after years on the fringes that it is a market easier to abandon than compete in.

    Now the hot market is CUVs. And FCA is content that they don’t need to seriously challenge the Japanese (and Korean) manufacturers known for higher quality (again perception is a big deal) because the market is so hot. The only difference is this time the other brands have a huge head start in hoards of loyal buyers. All FCA has is the Jeep brand name - which in some cases can cause people to overlook quality issues, but many first time Jeep buyers never come back for a second one. The only real difference this time around is Ford. They put serious effort into improving their quality image - real or perceived.

    We are already seeing the saturation of the CUV market before all the long promised non-Jeep CUVs hit the streets. Even Jeep’s reputation isn’t brining in the level of sales once dreamed of. The present looks a lot like the past.
     
  2. Erik Latranyi

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    Arrogant executives think that they are smarter than the market forces that have been around for more than 50 years.

    JC Penney thought it could eliminate the frequent promotions of "20% off" by just offering low, low prices. The market rejected it because much of the market buys not on the actual price of the merchandise, but on the perceived value they are getting when they buy at the discounted price.

    Walmart offers low prices, but even they do their "rollback" sales to make people think that they are getting a huge bargain.........it doesn't matter if it is true or not.

    The auto industry operates on quality, safety and reliability......it has done this for decades. The companies that do not offer quality, safety and reliability need to offer something else if they want to stay around. Land Rover, Jaguar and other offer a status symbol to their buyers despite poor quality and reliability. Renault, Alfa and Fiat did not offer quality or anything else to buyers, so they left the US market. Now, Fiat and Alfa are back in the US market and are not offering quality.......but arrogant management thinks the outcome will be different this time because they are in charge and not the guys who ran the company 30 years ago.
     
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  3. Mopar392

    Mopar392 Well-Known Member

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    There is CUV size for everyone from FCA, and more to come in the next couple of years.
    Yes, Jeep mid- and compact CUV aren't that popular but I think they are getting better.
     
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  4. Charger383

    Charger383 Active Member

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    Talk about arrogance.

    No, there isn't.

    Because everyone doesn't like CUV's.

    Not over my dead body will you find me inside one of those tarted up, boxy girly minivan-wannabes.

    I'd rather walk to my destination.

    Even the trailhawk pales next to the sounds and looks of my 1968 Charger (despite being faster).
     
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  5. TripleT

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    Fiat Chrysler is not going to kill the Fiat in Fiat ... world wide the small to midsized car pulls better margin then in NA, but you can see that the movement toward Alfa and Maserati is a attempt to move to higher margin segments, and Fiat models of CUVs are beginning to sneak out. So it moving in the proper direction Fiat doesn't need to be killed it is a niche product that should have been sold inside the existing dealer network which is exactly what they are doing. SM admitted that was mistake so we can move on from the kill Fiat stuff. The line of existing products offered in NA should expand to include Panda and Tipo if it is not sold as a Chrysler

    Dodge is doing quite well setting is self up as reasonable cost alternative to RWD luxury brands and that should continue. The idea that small pool with amazing margins should be avoided in favor of the crowded field with low or negative margins is interesting. That will be tough sell from a ROI.

    Jeep being the international SUV/CUV brand is working marvelously and as long as the make Halo models like JL the reputation in NA is intact, but still limited by ride height and break over expectation in NA. That is why Dodge and Chrylser CUVs... for that matter also Maserati and Alfa CUBs are on the way
     
    #365 TripleT, Jan 1, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 1, 2018
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  6. wilbur

    wilbur Active Member

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    Yes, I understand and in some ways agree, but the majority of the buyers who make most of the current purchases disagree.
    We have a truck (1 ton snow collector at the moment, too expensive to drive), a Grand Caravan (Shop van) and a Buick Encore (wife picked).
    The most km's and preferred mode of transportation is the Grand Caravan. It isn't the most advanced, it definitely isn't the prettiest. It creaks and and some rattles but then, why? It is the most comfortable and roomy. I put 12 hours at a time driving across two provinces every couple weeks this summer and it just ticked along. Mileage was respectable, I didn't feel worn down although if I could of afford the fuel the 1 ton would of been my top pick.

    To each is there own, but for the amount of supplies I can load into my van, take care of my family, the girly minivan will always be the most used. Damn, mine even has flowers on the sides... :)

    Wil
     
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  7. David S

    David S Member

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    I went by another name in the CAB from 2008 and 2009. I was the last person featured in the "In the boardroom" section and led a discussion. Had many great conversations with Norm on there. I have only used this name on Allpar. My posts are all over the news section, I am on vacation now and had time to post on the forum.

    Panda would be a great fit for Mexico, minicars like the Panda and 500 are pointless for the US unless you just want to stick one in the corner of the Dodge dealer for the few people who want one, like Opel used to be in Buick dealers. The Tipo is basically the same as a Nissan Versa, again a good fit for Mexico which is why it is sold there as the Neon. It would be a total insult to sell it as a Chrysler.

    Negative margins? That's the one miserable base model that is never on the dealers' lot, just something they put in advertisements to draw people in the door for a bait and switch. I don't believe an economy platform car in South America has higher margins than a competitive compact or midsize car in the US, but you do have to make a competitive car. The whole LATAM region lost money recently, it is NAFTA that is keeping FCA afloat, profits are orders of magnitude higher here than in the rest of the world, just read the annual report.

    The Charger is one car, and it is the replacement for the Crown Vic in the market. There has always been a market for a mainstream large RWD car in the US. The Challenger plays musclecar to Chevy and Ford's Camaro and Mustang ponycar. 60,029 customers through November are mostly a combination of boomers trying to recapture their youth and young kids wanting to lay down rubber on the back roads. They aren't taken as a reasonable alternative to BMW and Mercedes, that's a pipe dream. There is little market for a low cost RWD compact or midsize sedan, which is why one hasn't been offered since the '80s. If you push the base price over $30K people will buy a CPO BMW or Mercedes instead. That's why Dodge needs a FWD compact and midsize car back, just make it competitive and build it in one of the lower cost plants.

    For off road ability Jeep is the best, but the weight and engines are not competitive, so the fuel economy is well behind Honda, Toyota, Nissan, Ford and Chevy. The FWD and on road biased SUVs should have gone to Dodge and Chrysler. Not only is this bad for Dodge and Chrysler, it is also bad for the image of Jeep. They should have been done at the same time as the Jeeps, not be coming in another 2-3 years.

    I am quite used to the RWD, Wrangler and Diesel zealots and Sergio apologists on here. It seems as the Diesel zealots have decreased with Dieselgate the Sergio apologists have increased.
     
  8. MJAB

    MJAB Well-Known Member

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    A Fiat Tipo is not a Nissan Versa, Tipo is a C segment car, the Versa is a B segment vehicle.
    Main external difference is width, Versa being 169.5 cm width, while the Tipo is 179.2 cm, that are almost 4 inches.

    Tipo, that is based on Small, the Versa on the one of the Micra.

    A little bit contradiction in what You write, in some posts You advocate Small FWD cars, but Tipo "would be a total insult to sell it as a Chrysler".

    Has You ever seen a Fiat Tipo "live"? Have You ever took a look at how is made?

    Potential customers in U.S.A., but also in many other parts of the world.: the distribution of purchase power changed drastically after last economic crisis, more than one could think looking at averages data that are presented usually.
    Analysis made always looking to the past will not work nowdays, even more since the automotive business is going to a change radically... and the process is already started. Transport purchase vs. transport as service.

    note: in a post You wrote about plants.
    Tofas is a joint venture (37.8% FCA, 37.8% Koc group and 24.7% on stock market).
     
    #368 MJAB, Jan 1, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2018
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  9. David S

    David S Member

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    Obviously you
    Obviously you have to offer a competitive product, not something overweight, lacking direct injection and the latest transmissions. Exactly why the SUSW models I described would succeed where the CUSW Dart and 200 failed. R&D would be very low since it is basically a stretched Tipo/500X, the 9 speed that has finally had the bugs ironed out, and direct injection on engines already in the inventory/ that the R&D has already been done on.

    Changsha is right near the rail lines to Guangzhou, the 7th largest container port in the world. Of course those ships would go to Los Angeles/ Long Beach and Seattle. Betim is right near Santos, the largest port in LATAM going to New York and Savannah. Cordoba borders on Buenos Aires, the largest port in Argentina, Bursa, Turkey already exports the Ram Promaster City, Ranjangaon is near Mumbai (Bombay). Your shipping fears are baseless.
     
  10. CivoLee

    CivoLee Active Member

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    I don't know, I'd buy an affordable compact RWD sport sedan. Looking rich in a BMW isn't a good idea in some of the places I drive/park.
     
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  11. TripleT

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    Not sure what your arguing for.... Brazil isn't a option as that route is extremely expensive as are all the SA routes because of a lack of free trade, you need ships going both direction. Trust I deal with this now. The Guangzhou capacity is getting gobbled up domestically but that can be resolved. I hear rumors that Turkey is pretty full also..... all that said

    I get the impression the most people would welcome the Tipo into the NA with the correct powertrain and high trim. The comparison with TIda IS WAY OFF, it is closer to the Focus, and certainly better then the Chinese produced Focus.
     
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  12. TripleT

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    Your free to post anything you want that Dave, Christopher, and Mike will allow. But demonizing people as Zealots or Apologists is not going to win many friends. It OK to disagree with the direction of FCA management without be derogatory. The notion that a poster on the Forum has insight beyond the successful leadership of FCA is funny at best. But I know that is part of the fun, to be the Keyboard QB. Don't want to ruin your fun, but post stuff like that is poor discourse. I have found discourse universally to be deteriorating regardless of the subject, its ok for people disagree without labeling each other as somehow nefarious.
     
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  13. David S

    David S Member

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    I advocate US compact FWD cars, (109 cu ft) which is not what Europeans consider small. Acura TLX, Audi A4, BMW 3,4,6, Cadillac ATS, Infiniti QX30, Jaguar XE, Lexus IS, Mercedes C, CLS, VW Golf and Volvo S60 are all compact cars.

    Chrysler has never sold a subcompact or 4 door compact model under its own name in the US. That is market territory belonging to Dodge historically. Compact Chryslers have been personal luxury coupes with long doors that mean the B pillar is not digging into the shoulder of a driver over 6' tall. It would be an insult to offer the Fiat Tipo as a Chrysler in the US. With appropriate engine, transmission, rear suspension and interior upgrades it could serve as a Dodge.
     
  14. T_690

    T_690 Active Member

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    Wait, wait...

    Tipo is not a compact and Golf is. :facepalm:
     
  15. TripleT

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    Nope NOT a Dodge in the current scheme, It only would fit Chrysler or Fiat. The only way it could be sold as a Dodge is with the 2.0LT and then it no longer acts as the bridge product to the dealership.... seems your making a argument for Brand Positioning that dates back to near death experience of the late 00.... that water flowed under the bridge 9 years ago, there is no gravity to have flow back in that direction.
     
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  16. TripleT

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    Thinking someone may not have experienced a Tipo in person. Just sayin
     
  17. TripleT

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    Starting to think someone is stirring the pot for the fun of it.... Merry New Year everyone :D
     
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  18. suzq044

    suzq044 Resident Photoshop Nerd

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    They failed for a lot of reasons. Marketing not understanding their audience, or the product, for one; and whether you believe me or not, that's a lot of it. Another would the the impatience of the CEO in the American market. He doesn't like waiting to see if something will build. He wants it to do well, and do well immediately, or it's a flop & cut within 4years. You're not going to build the idea of longevity by killing off product that isn't doing as well as the Imports, without giving it time to thrive & gain notoriety. Charger & Challenger have 10+years going on them. People see them every day, and they're always present in one way or another. The Dart, at least, wasn't given the chance. On top of that, the fact that it was nearly the size of a midsize vehicle, with an arguably too-small engine for the weight it had to lug around.

    As for the 200, I think it was a decent car, but the mistake of renaming the Sebring to 200 right before the new one showed up.. was not a good decision. Marketing, again. I didn't see too many ads for the 200, but what I did see were decent ads. The problem is that the Chrysler brand didn't seem to know what it is outside of the muscular 300, and even that they don't know whether to market up-scale or market as the every-man vehicle, so they tried upmarket & hoped for the best. The 300 has also been around for 10+years, and has gained that notoriety. "You see them everywhere, so they must be decent cars," sort of thinking, that makes people brand loyal.

    FCA is has been missing that notoriety in the compact and mid-size market. That said, the sedan market is shrinking as people realize the shape of a CUV suits them more, and is more practical for seeing around GIANT SUVs such as the Atlas, Expedition, and Suburban, not to mention, the ever-growing pickup trucks.
     
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  19. David S

    David S Member

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    This isn't Europe, we don't have B and C segments, we have compacts 100 to 109 cu ft. Both are in the same class, it doesn't matter if it is the old Japanese regulation driven 1695 mm (66.7") wide or the modern 1729 mm (70.6") wide. From an American perspective both are low cost underpowered compact 4/5 doors. You can find many examples of Dodge cars like that, none of Chryslers sold in the US.
     
  20. David S

    David S Member

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    Did I ever say Tipo wasn't a compact? No. :facepalm:
     

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