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New fours

Discussion in 'Mopar / FCA News' started by bumonbox, Apr 23, 2014.

  1. bumonbox

    bumonbox Say no to kool-aid
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    Has higher peak numbers sure. But what is the actual torque curve like? I haven't driven a tigershark engine, but I have driven a share of WGE engines. When you hit peak power, it's tolerable, but golly gosh they are GUTLESS in the low range. I'd be willing to bet, that the old 2.0 from the Neon would have felt faster to the average driver in the same cars in question than the WGE (once again, no comment on the slightly updated 2.0). That said the WGEs were more tech friendly and more emissions compliant. But still, I'd stand with others who say that over all, they were a step back.

    I always suspected that the reason people hated the CVTs so much wasn't solely the fault of the transmissions. But that the complete lack of low end power in the 4 cylinders it was tied to really hurt driveability.
     
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  2. TripleT

    TripleT Allpar Legacy

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    Nah, I don't care if its in a Maxima, Audi, or Caliber CVT stink.
     
  3. Dave Z

    Dave Z It's me, Dave
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    You don't notice the CVT nearly as much in a Nissan as a Caliber. I think part of that is sound insulation. But yeah, the WGE seemed peaky. I did prefer the lower-peak-power Neon and PT engines... but of course they were in different cars. Still, 2.4 PT to 2.4 Caliber — around the same weight, no?
     
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  4. valiant67

    valiant67 ...

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    And people complained because the Neon's 2.0 seemed weak compared to the K car 2.5/2.5. :)
    The neon 2.0 did need to be revved to get into it's power band but it was quite happy at those RPMs. It took a little work with an automatic, but the Neon 2.0 could perform OK with an automatic if you really dropped the gas pedal.
     
  5. serpens

    serpens Well-Known Member

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    The highway number is great, but that's not where an engine's true mpg characteristics are shown. I'm looking squarely at the city number, which lags behind the competition. I'm sure the NA 2.4L is cheaper to make, but I don't think that should be the prime consideration.



    Exactly.
     
  6. AutoTechnician

    AutoTechnician Well-Known Member

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    One problem with traditional belt CVTs (I believe most current CVTs use some kind of steel belt), is that to change the ratio, one pulley needs to physically squeeze tighter, while the other expands. The expanding is no problem, but the pulley that needs to squeeze in and shift the belt upwards can only do that so fast without damaging things.

    If you ever used a piece of industrial equipment that had an adjustable sheave pulley system (think manual CVT), you can only adjust it so fast without the belt fighting you. I'm assuming the same issue applies to automotive CVTs (someone correct me if I'm wrong).

    2011 Maxima CVT Example:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9eE-DBd0OY
    Notice how sluggish the transmission is at sliding down to a lower ratio. This is with a fairly powerful V6 engine as well.

    Here's a Charger 8 speed in comparison:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_joB-IKn6k
    The charger is much more responsive.
     
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  7. Lampredi

    Lampredi Well-Known Member

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    Not all of the Fiat FIRE-based engines are non-interference engines, I think that's only true for the smaller displacement ones with 8 valves (not sure about the 1.4 8V in the Grande Punto).
     
  8. vipergg

    vipergg Well-Known Member

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    Just give me standard breather , a turbo is just something to go wrong and fix after 100000 miles ...
     
  9. serpens

    serpens Well-Known Member

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    I'm a little conflicted about this post. I driven that model Maxima several times- it's programmed to act that way to prevent consumer complaints about how the CVT acts. Accelerating in that linear fashion helps it seem more "normal."

    This may seem like BS, but if you call up a "downshift" using the shift paddles it responds INSTANTLY. I was shocked the first time I drove one back in 2009- many reviews of the car noted that characteristic as well.
     
  10. MJAB

    MJAB Well-Known Member

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    Well You'll like something like the Lancia's narrow V 4 cylinders engines that they built since '20s till 1976. Larger head, but very short engine.

    In the photo block and head (with hemispherical chamber) of a Lancia Fulvia coupè V4 (1965-1976), that was a FWD car, but with the engine mounted in longitudinal position.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    The Fulvia Coupè it is the last Lancia with Lancia's mechanical engineering ideas (engine, transmission, ...), in races the Stratos, 037, Delta Delta S4 and Delta Integrale are result of Abarth engineering (= Fiat).

    Lancia was always technologically advanced than Fiat (and (than) also more expensive).
    In 1950 they introduced the first production car 6 cylinders with V angle of 60*.
     
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  11. valiant67

    valiant67 ...

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    I can't recall the last time I've had to manually prompt a car with a modern automatic to downshift under spirited acceleration. I would not be happy with the Maxima.
     
  12. keithwwalker

    keithwwalker Active Member

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    That's a really bad example, given that FIAT basically ate up Lancia with inline 4's. Lancia v-4 was a great engine, but not powerful, and restricted to the front longitudinal layout, never transverse.

    Interestingly, VW has some Lancia-like narrow angle V-4's and V-5's in transverse applications, do they still make them?

     
  13. serpens

    serpens Well-Known Member

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    You don't have to manual prompt it...it's for when you feel that you want to or if you're in sport mode. It can mimic a 6-speed automatic when prompted by the paddles or when in sport mode. In auto mode it just does its CVT thing and seamlessly gets the revs exactly where they need to be for optimal acceleration.

    It's also worth noting it doesn't always react like it does in the video. If you brake really quickly then jam on the gas pedal (indicating accident avoidance or sporty driving), for example, it will immediately switch to the best ratio for acceleration instead of gradually getting there. It's really a great system- I only dislike it when it's paired with Nissans with low power engines.
     
  14. Seagondollar

    Seagondollar Active Member

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    Motus is doing it with a 1650cc DI V4 (much like half a Chevy V8) making 165 HP done by Katech. It's available as a crate engine and RCR Monoposto is making a Brabham looking single seater with it. Hot Rod magazine on it: http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/hrdp_1109_v4_motorcycle_engine/

    And that's a pushrod engine.

    But you also have to realize the trade-offs for taller cylinder head with OHC. I'm a Moto Guzzi fanatic (90 degree V twin) and I like what they've done with the newer 4 valve per cylinder engines with the mid-cam design (Pardon me, but they are like the Mercedes Indy engine with lifters and no pushrods). I suspect the V4 doesn't have as many packaging advantages as an inline four. I also have a 1988 MR2 and would love to see a mid-engined Dodge like the Alfa 4C.
     
  15. MJAB

    MJAB Well-Known Member

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    Also Porsche's new race car for 24 heures du Le Mans (LMP1 class) uses a V4 engine since its dimensions allow easier integration with energy recovery / electrical engines systems.
     
  16. md80891

    md80891 Active Member

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    Let's try to keep it in context. Lancia started making that motor in the 20's and it only got up to about 1.6 liters and made 80hp-115hp depending on the model. My memory of Lancia is as a world champion rally car and the V4 pulled it off until replaced by one of the greatest rally cars ever Stratos. I don't know if a Fiat out ran anything but if they did it wasn't for any appreciable length of time. The VR6/VR5 was used in VWs, Porsches and Audis and VW is at it again http://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/volkswagen-announces-a-new-vr6-its-full-of-anger-and-torques/#!FQdTC in concept it is the same as the Lancia and one could use the Ricardo Hyboost which Lancia did already as well. But that little V4 was never that big and limited by europe and err Lancia.

    The most famous BIG BANG v4 was the Honda NSR500 motogp bike. It was unbeatable for five or six years.
     
  17. md80891

    md80891 Active Member

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    Most famous BIG BANG v4 was the Honda NSR500 MotoGP bike. It was unbeatable for five or six years.

    I hear you on the mid engine sports car or any two seater like Copperhead or Demon. But mid engine it would be nice to have a PStar Stratos type car with some of the idiosyncrasies fixed. Porsche 914 type with a PStar. Somwhere I have a article about a chopped and channeled 914 with a 302 Chevy V8 from an RS stuffed in it. Basically a 400hp playing card on wheels. Then there was the Matra 3 seats abreast
     
  18. bumonbox

    bumonbox Say no to kool-aid
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    The issue isn't really with 2.4 as a displacement. Especially considering it only loses 1 city MPG against the 2.0 in the Dart (gains one highway, the 2 even out for combined). Now obviously, the 2.4 has some better tech, but the point remains. Alas, this all lends credence to the point someone made earlier about weight. But I don't think this serves as a sufficient excuse for the WGE, being as peaky as they are. It does likely help to explain why the city MPG hurts the way it does.

    But are we talking real world, or EPA. The thing about Turbos that seems to have been proven by Ford and others, is that they can work extremely well in improving your EPA numbers, but are excpetionally sensitive to driving style. Consider that most turbo engines do quite well against bigger displacement counter parts when there is less demand on the engine, but under higher load the MPG tends to drop in a more pronounced manner than a NA engine. If the issue is weight, and we're talking city, with more acceleration and less coasting, then I don't think there would be a huge pay off. As it is, unless it is a very small boost, a turbo 2.0 would leapfrog the 2.4 in an unneccessary manner for most of the lineup. In the current lineup, the turbo 1.4 is much more closely matched to the 2.4. And to that end, connected to the AMT it acheives 2 better highway, and 4 better city. So it does improve the EPA city numbers. But first, AMT is likely more efficient than the 6 spd slushbox, so the engine doesn't deserve all the credit, and again we're back to the real world question, and I have read as I have for all other turbo'd versions that the 1.4 turbo is exceptionally unforgiving of anything more than light driving. People have a much harder time acheiving EPA numbers with the 1.4 than they do the NA counterparts.

    Chrysler does have to play the EPA game to a point for marketing reasons, but since marketing only ever touts highway MPG, I'd rather Chrysler ensure their offerings return good real world city MPG. I don't want to see Chrysler jump whole hog into the turbo competition, if they can acheive it with NA engines, I hope they do. All of this speculation is, again contingent upon the actual final output of the given displacement engines.
     
  19. Mr_WoLoLO

    Mr_WoLoLO Member

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    It does requires more maintenance, I agree on that point, with the correct one it doesn't go wrong as I recall with my Spirit R/T that lasted more than 20 years before I sold it.

    But that's just my personal opinion, maybe I was just lucky.
     
  20. Moparian

    Moparian Well-Known Member

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    If you do not modify them or beat the crap out of them (and not let them cool down before turning off the car) the turbo should last as long as the engine, if not longer....
     
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