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On FCA US’ carline gaps

Discussion in 'Mopar / FCA News' started by Dave Z, Jul 13, 2017.

  1. Ryan

    Staff Member Level III Supporter

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    Comparing Europe to the US isn't a rational argument. They're different markets with different needs, as we established earlier.
     
  2. aldo90731

    Staff Member Level III Supporter

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    I could. But I don't want to.

    You keep tossing data as if North Americans were insane for despising FIATs. Those numbers are just data; they don't prove or disprove anything by themselves.

    I had warned, at nauseam, that Fiat --and Alfa Romeo-- needed to address its sordid past here for N.A. shoppers to give it another chance; it didn't.

    There's no global conspiracy: Fiat put itself in the current position.
     
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  3. MJAB

    MJAB Well-Known Member

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    These are two Fiat Panda, for the ones that doesn't know what they look like.
    Are four doors vehicles, about 10 cm loger than a Fiat 500 (4 inches).

    [​IMG]

    And this is a Lancia Ypsilon, european B segment car.

    It is a four doors too.
    [​IMG]
     
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  4. MJAB

    MJAB Well-Known Member

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    I don't toss nothing about "North Americans were insane for despising FIATs", that is your opinion, I didn't write that, sorry.

    Someone wrote about Fiat 500 quality in U.S.A. and I just showing that in other markets sells.

    So the question is very simply. If Fiat 500 so defective, that the "lemon" ones are so high in U.S.A., how is that in other market it sells even if the number of choices is far superior than in U.S.A.?
    How is if Fiat 500 is so defective, as some posters wrote, sells, why are not the concurrrent vehicles selling more in that market?

    That are the data and that is my question.
     
  5. MJAB

    MJAB Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but as I just posted, someone wrote about quality of Fiat 500, so many "lemons".
    Do You really think that in Europe, with so many different city cars, a very defective car could sold that high numbers for so many years?
     
  6. Erik Latranyi

    Erik Latranyi Allpar Legacy

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    Wow, you just don't get it.

    The Fiat 500 in Europe and the Fiat 500 in the US are built in different plants. The powertrains are built in different plants.

    If they were all built in the same plant, then I could understand your point.....good quality in EU would be contradictory to bad quality in US.

    However, since they are built in different plants, it is EASY to understand the quality differences.

    The fact that FCA can build the Fiat 500 with good quality in EU, but not here shows that it has no control over production quality. WCM is a joke.

    We already saw this with the Compass defect where a problem arose with production in Toluca that alredy had a fix in Brazil (but not implemented in Toluca).

    These are amateurs running this global company because they are not acting like a global company and sharing best practices.
     
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  7. 77 Monaco Brougham

    77 Monaco Brougham Well-Known Member

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    First of all...THESE are the cars that FCA should have brought to North America instead of the ill-suited 500.

    Secondly...as someone posted earlier....it would have been a good idea for FCA to be totally transparent and "come clean" in admitting past quality / reliability issues, along with REAL AND CONCRETE measures to correct these BEFORE shipping anything to North America.

    Oh well...hindsight...as they say...is always 20 / 20.

    OOPS!!! Almost forgot....the 1.4 litre should have never been offered in these cars for North America.
     
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  8. Erik Latranyi

    Erik Latranyi Allpar Legacy

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    They built the Fiat 500 here and the quality still sucked. Now, I accept @MJAB that the Fiat 500 in EU is good quality. The fact that they could not replicate that quality when building them in Toluca is an indication that this team is not ready to be a global car company, sharing best practices worldwide.
     
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  9. redriderbob

    redriderbob Mopar Guru!
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    Fiat just launched the Argo in South America this past month...

     
  10. aldo90731

    Staff Member Level III Supporter

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    Indeed. FCA quality is not horrid, but it is inconsistent at best.

    And that is at the crux of this: a successful automaker is able to replicate quality; otherwise, it is just one risky proposition.

    Unfortunately, automobiles are way too expensive, their cargo too precious, and buyers come to market too infrequently to be willing to take their chances with an automaker that hasn't demonstrated the ability to replicate quality, consistently.
     
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  11. v.b.

    v.b. Well-Known Member

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    It is highly hypocritical from Chrysler supporters, who have endured the stigma woefully engineered POS cars for the last 30 years, that may or may not have been fully deserved, to join so happy in bashing Fiat, based on word of mouth.

    I am sure that on Ford boards, for example, they would laugh to tears to hear that we argue whether Fiats or Chrysler is less reliable, although we know that, probably, both are more reliable than Ford (just an example).

    Fiat between 2003-2008 produced some of the most reliable cars in its history and on the European market. It did nothing to change its reliability image. So this whole "fix your reliability and sales will pick up" is BS. Why would you risk?

    You need to offer something that people want and want bad enough to give it a shot. And hope you won't disappoint them too bad. Jeep does that very good at the moment. And maybe Alfa. We'll see.

    If you need an A segment car Fiat is basically your only choice along Smart. No one will buy a Focus competitor from them. Fiat is where it is supposed to. And soon in a corner of your Dodge dealership. If anything, they should bring over more quirky cars, not less.

    Have you considered that the reason they don't bring Tipo (mexican Dodge Neon) over there is capacity? Basically Fiat Tipo is an unexpected success in Europe and I doubt Tofas can do 30k more a year.

    V
     
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  12. aldo90731

    Staff Member Level III Supporter

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    One should not be accused of bashing by simply pointing out the problems. No one is saying that Chryslers, Dodges or Jeeps are perfect. But show me that Fiat is a viable brand in North America and I will shut up.

    What I find hypocritical is for a company that just dropped two nameplates that competed in core segments, and which outsold ALL of Fiat 5 to 1, to keep the Fiat franchise languishing around.

    There's no denying it: Fiat, in its current state, is a major embarrassment in this market.
     
    #552 aldo90731, Jul 23, 2017
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2017
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  13. Erik Latranyi

    Erik Latranyi Allpar Legacy

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    Totally untrue.

    Everyone here knows that Chrysler quality has been horrible in the past as well....especially under Daimler. Nobody is bashing Fiat and saying Chrysler is good. That would be dishonest.

    Fiat's quality in the US is the subject here. Not Fiat's quality in EU.

    It CANNOT be disputed that Fiat in the US has the worst quality of all the major manufacturers.
     
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  14. redriderbob

    redriderbob Mopar Guru!
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  15. Erik Latranyi

    Erik Latranyi Allpar Legacy

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    Yes, it is a lot better than it was in long past, but being twice the average is not acceptable.

    I totally agree that such lousy quality is an insult to the women and men working their asses off at FCA.

    If FCA in Europe is not this bad, then it is an even bigger insult!
     
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  16. Prabhjot

    Prabhjot Active Member

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    Except that the J D Power manager in-charge (?) said their stats were skewed because of a clash of 'cultural' expectations vis-a-vis the actual cars. Post-the-early-ddct-and-engine-caliberated-in-and by-usa-fca-when-gas-prices-were-still-very-high-and-the-generous-usa-admin-was-insistent-on-FCA-making much higher FE standards fast (or else.) He said this at the last release of the J D Power survey 'ordinal ranking' (2017), i believe: he is referring to recent surveys not the initial made-in-N-America and badly-product-planned-and-caliberated-by-fca-usa ddct/clutch pack etc issues that afflicted Valiant67.

    FIAT+Abarth topped Mini by a/some distance, i believe, even in the usa? Worth little, i know, still. ;-)

    As I posted earlier: if one wants to believe and propound such gross generalizations ('stereotypes') one ALWAYS can. There is ALREADY ALWAYS something 'unsatisfactory' about any car, its brand, its firm, its dealers or technicians or pricing or recall performance or media-favorable-coverage-or not etc etc.

    Cars sell, or not, based on a multitude of factors, all very (or not) changeable, very contextual (the minutiae that mr. aldo 'knows' so much about, trades in).

    IMO even seperating one factor or dimension from another is impossible to do based on data point-based 'truths'. Nothing is 'all else equal' in the car industry, marketplace demography+economics+'culture'. It is perfectly pointless nowadays to try to seperate out costing, manufacturing, design from brand identity/authenticity from brand-trust from resale values and dealerships etc etc. In trying to 'account' for sales, incentives needed, dealership or product planning/positioning, etc. From outside an organization or national-manufacturing and brand-management and marketing and distribution organization, that is. We and the journo-hacks at the car-reccomendation + auto-company-PR-infested sites may like to play armchair all-encompassing auto-industry know it alls, BUT.....

    Those days are over. They've all converged towards higher (real or percieved) standards across the industry, and across brands and firms of different 'national business cultures'. The days of Toyota Way as radical innovation are over. The days of Honda and Hyundai/Kia as by-words for honesty and 'reliability/quality' are over: consider the news on these two firms vis-a-vis recalls, grave quality including the even graver engine-manufactruing defects and/or coverups over the last few years. We all know just how Das german Auto-s were and are, by now, too!

    Despite mistakes, imo the fca management team are actually overall pretty darn good: hence the vast improvements in sales, marketshare, brand re-positioning and reflating, wcm automation+efficiency, new-MOPAR-managed service process management etc across all the plants and brands in nearly all countries/regions. And the ongoing surge in profitability, debt elimination and.....yes it boils down to this necessarily...stock prices/'valuations'.

    The days when 'build quality' of parts or assembly or paint shops being any better in say Michigan or Germany or Turin than, instead, say Brazil, India, Turkey or China are over. Adjusting for market-economics factors of course: such as whether or not a Camry sells by the ton outside of the usa too while a c 200 (a finely built car, RIP!) did not and could not because Chrysler had zero or rather negative reputation/equity in this usa segment and the C200 zero USP? Such as Toyota being the world's largest and highest profit margin large auto oem with economies of scale many times fca's. Even so Toyota is now losing money in usa market, net net, even as fca, gm and ford continue to make it hand-over-fist.

    There are different firms' peculiar life-rhythms at work, though.

    FCA seems a bit behind....only because it is SO much younger (far less than 8 years old, in real terms, imo), and has had one or another or so-many negative legacy issues (real or as-reputed), but is really, truly fully picking up the pace across all the 'disciplines' of the car industry and car 'culture' only of-late: a function of financial non-ill-fare, at last, post Ferrari-spinoff-with-a-ton-of-fca-debt.

    Even the multibrand dealers and service etc under the mopar brand/processes: in most countries, markets. Even on this last front: SO much, perhaps even nearly everything falls into place (virtuous cycle) once the firms' finances improve but especially the dealers' enjoy financial buoyancy too.

    Of course the legacy dealers (for the mass market brands and under-prime locations in the usa) are an issue in the usa, for sure (on average) since usa auto retail and servicing is so different and difficult (peculiar?) As are nhtsa and epa issues that fca has had (understandably, imo.)
     
  17. Prabhjot

    Prabhjot Active Member

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    Your argument is NOT what very empirically tested behavioural economics and/or Game Theory interpretations, etc, of how 'crowds' or rather 'herds' (large numbers of ONLY-apparently independent, fully diverse, rational and well-informed, honest and transperent) of consumers in 'mass industries' behave. EVEN in the usa.
     
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  18. Alexbucks

    Alexbucks Guest

    FIAT in U.S. isn't worth the meltdown of so much discussion of this thread........
    Trying to whine about the FIAT brand in the U.S. to justify unprofitable non-core segment that skews to non-geographically core areas (for GM,FCA) of U.S. (Coastal markets) is the height of insanity.
     
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  19. valiant67

    valiant67 ...

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    I have went out of my way to point out in several posts that Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep hadquality issues existed before FCA.
    Jeep gets a lot of "one and done" buyers because of quality issues, I've pointed that out before. I've also pointed out that same thing happened before FCA. But let's not spend too much time bashing Chrysler of 30 years as Fiat and Alfa Romeo were running from the US market with their tales between their legs in that general time period.

    If you make excuses and accept the status quo, things won't get better. CUVs from FCA will only sell on discounts (just like the reason for sedans being dropped) and Sergio's dreams of higher margins evaporate.
     
  20. valiant67

    valiant67 ...

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    Nor is the justification of Fiat in the US worth the time and effort Sergio's fans put into it.
    It is a big deal because it is a waste of resources (time and money) from a company whose excuse for outdated models and canceled product is a lack of resources. To support the dropping or Dart/200 and approve of keeping Fiat in the US is nothing but hypocrisy.
    But before you say that the opposite (remaining in the sedan market and dropping Fiat) is hypocritical - there is a benefit from those sedans not present from Fiat, Fiat does not draw people to showrooms full of Jeeps like the sedans did.
     
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