Discussion in 'Mopar / FCA News' started by Dave Z, Jul 13, 2017.
Didn't you know? Sergio never makes mistakes.
I think you would be surprised how well the Fiat 500 ABARTH would fit your requirements.
Dart and 200 were eliminated from the US market, not the global market. Showing an increase in global margins does not mean anything. US margins are all that matter when evaluating that decision....and US margins only increased due to cuts to suppliers and currency exchange.
The base 500X has the same drivetrain in a size larger, though it might be too tall.
But not configured in a sporty manner. The tuning of the 500 ABARTH is quite unique.
Problem is that neither the 500X or the 500 Abarth are in the car body style, which seems to be what he's wanting.
The 500 is a car body style. It’s a small hatchback.
Not what I meant. Sedan/coupe body style without a hatchback. There are no options for people who want a small sporty sedan or coupe from FCA.
Have had two camry already. A 2007 and a 2014.5 both XLE 4 cylinders. None of them used a drop of oil. The only major repair that i had done on the 2007 was a water pump which they covered under a good will gesture since I was just out of warrentee by 1k. Toyota has their share of issues but they go out of their way to fix it right the first time. FCA tries to get out of warrentee claims.
Toyota has earned their quality reputation by producing over engineered cars, giving people a great dealer experience, and giving a great service experience. Nothing more .. nothing less. Yes they have their issues like every other car maker, but they strive to make it right.
I love chrysler/dodge products as I have had quite a few but the quality has gone down where it just does not make sense to make a 6 year investment when the car will not last it. Most of mine were EEK and damiler\chrysler era cars.. (neon and intrepid) when I was a young man. Now I own two Toyotas. A 2017 Sienna minivan and a 2017 iM. I looked heavly at the chrysler pacifica. Due to a rental experence with it ... which shows the quality of FCA I crossed it off the list. Chrysler also lost me as they do not offer a compact. The dart was just not going to cut it
If its not the right product, it won't matter what kind of quality it has. By the same token, if the quality isn't there even the best designs will fail. They both end up in the same place (lack of sales) but originate from very different problems. Your arguments often start out complaining that A and B size vehicles don't sell in the US but then in the same post use the lack of sales as an indication that the quality of the vehicle is lacking. It takes away from the point that you are trying to make--thats all I'm saying.
Ford usa 'operating profit' margins are down a lot: just in the last 3 quarters, the last year. Not much above FCA's 7.3+% as of last quarter. 8.x% as of last quarter, i believe. GM's are very likely getting compressed a fair bit too, and fast. ALL usa figures. Not global, where FCA margins are more or less as good as both GM's and Ford's, and more importantly rising (unlike theirs? adjusting for GM quitting Europe and India too) with NO blackholes in the global balance sheet 'geography' since ALL divisions, subsidiaries and global-market-regions are increasingly profitable, more or less.
Global margins are entirely germane to the usa discussion, since it is the usa car market that seems to be slowly (deeply? painfully?) slowing while say Europe is trending up if anything besides being bigger by now than the usa one, and latam (where FCA had large margins before the political crisis-induced recession in Brazil 3 odd years ago) is growing again for fca, with all-new FIATs coming onstream right now and over the next year or two.
Also the current, if anything somewhat delayed, emphasis on the moreGLOBAL brands and models (i.e., Jeeps+Maserati+Alfa+Magneti Marelli+FIAT europe and latam) is precisely in order to survive a usa slowdown or worse well-enough, to diversify finally away from too-large a dependence for company wide net-profits on the usa, which in any case has had DISMAL net- (not so called ebitda) margins so far since 2008 nevermiind the boom in fca sales and marketshare in the usa since 2008/9.
Global models and therefore margins-even-for-usa are also germane since many models now and in the foreseeable future do rest on global distribution-based scale for them to be viable or profitable-enough or to-avoid layoffs (unlike GM and Ford, already) in the usa or even offered in the usa at all. Hence Renegade+new Compass (neither made in the usa or canada....for a reason!), the ALfa-Dodge giorgio 'platform'- and even some powertrains-twinning, hence the large and very unlike Ford and GM export plans for usa-made refreshedCherokee+new Wrangler etc.....through the onsetting usa-slowdown/etc, for China Jeep K8+Yuntu twinning in terms of development+components/etc to a Chrysler 'Journey', etc.
To you all who try to claim Global Margins and making money around the world don't matter:
Go to 14:10
There's a world of difference Charger, Challenger, Durango vs the Pontiac line up from the decade.
Name one of the those three (Charger,Challenger, Durango)) that did 35%-60% rental fleet rate like many Pontiac models+ Double digit (as percentage of overall volume) GM Employee discounting.
Name one actual performance vehicle (from Pontiac) that lasted for a entire model cycle (5 years) in that very same timeframe .
If the answer is no,then all comparisons about "Dodge the performance brand" (not the "full line brand") and the final ten years of Pontiac should cease.
Mixing and match "Dodge the performance brand" with Pontiac's final decade is lazy and stupid...comparing "Full-line" Dodge & Chrysler as well Dart-200 to Pontiac's final decade is fair and truthful because the economics that killed Pontiac are very similar.
The mission statement for each brand is/was the same: affordable performance vehicles. Dodge may have a better lineup than Pontiac did, but that doesn't mean Pontiac wasn't being marketed as a performance brand.
Darksky we are going to agree to disagree (bitterly) about Pontiac including really Marketing....Oprah is not performance ....."Pontiac Is Car" is not performance.....
"The Apprentice is not performance".....it really goes beyond the lineup (Pontiac problems do)... But Pontiac was not market as "performance brand" in the final decade.
That's border line revisionist history ("Dodge may have a better lineup than Pontiac"...nope it DOES).... and for revisionist history:
I was replying to him specifically... I’m not interested in getting involved in the sedan debate. It’s simply a waste of bandwidth at this point.
He currently has a Daytona... In my opinion he would be surprised how well the Fiat 500 ABARTH would fit his needs.
I wasn't trying to start another debate. I was clarifying what I meant by "car body style" in an earlier post.
Since you edited your post: It's not revisionist history. Pontiac was the performance brand of GM... Are you ignoring all of the GXP models and sportier styling? True, they didn't have nearly as much performance as newer Dodge models, but since gas prices were high they marketed "sporty fuel efficient vehicles." Take a look at these descriptions from their website and tell me they aren't marketing them as performance vehicles.
G8 - A powerful and responsive rear-wheel-drive sport sedan, the Pontiac G8 dominates the road with rare confidence and grace.
G6 - The Pontiac G6 Sedan, Coupe and Convertible have earned a well-deserved reputation as midsize vehicles with the personality of a sports car.
G5 - The Pontiac G5 was designed as a stylish, affordable coupe with just the right amount of get-up-and-go.
G3 - The smart, safe and surprisingly agile Pontiac G3 delivers the value of a small car without sacrificing any of the fun or functionality.
Solstice - The Pontiac Solstice offers two-seat, top-down exhilaration in a daring, head-turning design.
Torrent - The Pontiac Torrent achieves the rare combination of SUV capability with excellent ride and handling.
Vibe - Not only does the Pontiac Vibe offer dynamic versatility wrapped in a stylish design, it has essentially redefined the traditional station wagon.
Key words to note: powerful, responsive, sport sedan, sports car, exhilaration, handling, agile
They were most definitely being marketed as a performance brand, although they may not have achieved it, especially with models like the G3, G5, and Vibe. Though lets be honest, Dodge has a few models too that were far from performance oriented: Dart, Journey, Grand Caravan, and yet we still consider them a performance brand.