Hello, Allpar Forums member or visitor! If you were a member, you would not see this ad!

Register or log in at the top right of the page...

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

PART TWO ~ 2005 Pt Cruiser Will need new head gasket

Discussion in 'PT Cruiser' started by Fullpass, Jan 25, 2017.

  1. Fullpass

    Fullpass Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2017
    Messages:
    41
    Likes:
    1
    Oh...Imperial Crown

    The two ports I had unplugged with the drill bit...are used, and do have holes that go through the head gasket, the ones that were plugged were on an angle going through the head, maybe like a 45...but that head is going back any how, because of the burs and cam journal surfaces...to bad...the deck looked great.
     
  2. pt006

    pt006 Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2014
    Messages:
    1,269
    Likes:
    478
    I don't know if this applies to your engine, but on the 2.5 L there are 3 extra cooling holes that are drilled in the head and block. 6 mm drill. They are located between the cylinders. They will plug up if the coolant isn't changed enough.

    Before you spend time on the head, bolt the camshaft back into the head without the rockers. No need for full torque on the cap bolts. If it spins easily by hand, your good to go.

    The valve spring compressor may need an adapter, as the valve spring retainers look pretty deep in the head.
     
  3. Fullpass

    Fullpass Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2017
    Messages:
    41
    Likes:
    1
    Pt006
    I see the cooling holes...3 are vertical drilled and an additional 3 are drilled on an angle, that look like tear drops..My original cylinder head, the one I will be doing are clear/open

    A good pic of the cooling hole, you had mentioned, if you look at the Picture of the Cylinder head from Odessa earlier in the thread, you can see the 3 holes on top between the chambers are vertically drilled and below those are some tear dropped holes, angled through the head. I think thats what your talking about. The old and new head gasket don't allow for the full tear drop shape of the angled holes, I can see why things can build behind the the gasket...really two of the three ports where plugged on the Odessa head, some scale, but some casting sand also...would have been room for improvement either from the manufacture or Fel~Pro

    Rotating Cams in Journals/without rockers...I don't see why you couldn't, All the inside cam journals and cap surfaces look great on my original cylinder head...The cam lobes on the exhaust some wear marks/nothing raised, but each lobe will be married with the original roller rocker and valve stem. I could see some wear on the lobe surfaces not at the high point, but maybe its called the mid point, from maybe valve spring float,(maybe the rockers not making constant contact with lobes, getting a little tapping effect, dulling the surface, is my guess) the surface was not as polished looking, nothing raised, just dull looking. This is an automatic, so can't be to much foot, just a 100,000 mile car, to be expected. I'm sure the original owner used regular oil/non synthetic..get what you pay for at a 100k...but the car should go on for a bit.
    41NCjhyf03L._AC_US160_.jpg

    The above pic is a OTC 4572 valve spring compressor, from amazon another member/thread had used with success...It will arrive today Sunday Feb 12...read some review...reviews stated light commercial use...but should not bend for the average use of a home mechanic...and hopefully the retaining keeper will not be stuck..only other tip I heard was, just to put some pressure on them and let them set for 15 min, to break any stuck keeper loose, and not bend the valve spring tool by over applying pressure. A little patients I guess.
     
    #43 Fullpass, Feb 12, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2017
  4. Fullpass

    Fullpass Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2017
    Messages:
    41
    Likes:
    1
    I will be able to get things disassembled by Monday night...Then wait for the Gum 2+2, (half to ship ground for that stuff) won't be hear until Wednesday, to start cleaning up the head, but have other things to do...some rust on the hard lines running to the water pump and heater hoses...need to get some sanding and paint on those, avoid any other future pit falls of the system as much as possible. Pun intended..because the metal is rusting and pitting..lol
     
  5. pt006

    pt006 Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2014
    Messages:
    1,269
    Likes:
    478
    The cam lobes sound normal. The cam bearing cap condition is good news. The reason for the 'cam test' is to see if the head warped due to severe overheating. Aluminum gets soft at higher temps and the outer head bolts may put a permanent warp in the head. Since the head surfaces are machined straight when new, if the cam spins freely now, it means the head hasn't warped.

    That looks like the correct spring compressor. You'll need a pair of needle nose pliers and a pencil magnet. Replace the valve seals while your there. Before you use the compressor, rap the outer edge of the spring retainers downward with a small plastic hammer or a brass/aluminum punch and hammer. This cracks them loose after years of pounding. Do them all at once. You will hear a difference in the sound they make when they break free.
     
  6. Fullpass

    Fullpass Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2017
    Messages:
    41
    Likes:
    1
  7. Fullpass

    Fullpass Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2017
    Messages:
    41
    Likes:
    1
  8. Fullpass

    Fullpass Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2017
    Messages:
    41
    Likes:
    1
    Just some before pics of the original head and valves, everything is marked to be placed back in original location..So much for getting this job done in a week...but I'm learning a lot...well worth the knowledge...will be looking for loaded turbo convertible PT...to fix...half to be some out there...have one...I might come out and get it... :)

    Hey PT006,

    yes have the valve stem seals, came with the Fel - Pro kit, also taped to loosen keepers, non where stuck...That OTC tool is great for the overhead valve springs..Just waiting for the Gum 2 + 2 ...want to see how well everything will clean up before taking the brass wheel to valves and ports.
     
  9. dana44

    Ad-Free Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2002
    Messages:
    19,317
    Likes:
    1,232
    So, given you have a couple days to wait until your Gum 2 + 2 shows up, want to add a little efficiency to the cylinders? It's good for a few hp and torque, and a little increase in rpm mileage (like the same at 85-90mph as you get at 65-70?).

    See all those sharp edges around the valves and the flat of the head surface? Those areas are known for collecting gasoline and detonating, pinging (forces your timing to back off), and prevents flow from exploding across the whole surface. See how those flat spots are clean and the valve pocket is dirty? what do you think happens when the sharp edges are removed, preventing the flame from curling at those sharp edges and the flame travels into those clean areas to burn faster, prior to the piston dropping and the then the flame burning the fuel/air that is in those clean areas? Answer is, the bigger explosion you have at a higher compression, the more power you produce.

    simple solution and only takes a couple hours of work. Grind, cut, or round file those sharp edges so they don't exist, so the flame travels over them instead of curling back into the already burned fuel/air area already. Sorry, I don't have a good picture to show you, but, you can see your head gasket ring on the surface of your head, just round all the sharp edges inside the combustion chamber as round as the wire on your computer mouse and you will have a noticeable difference in its production of power and efficiency. It's like running around empty and having three people in the car with you as the same, hitting hills and not having to shift or shifting later, makes a difference, and an extra 3mpg lost going 20mph faster gone. Easy to do with a simple round file, me, I like using a carbide burr cutter about the size of my pinky, rounded end and all.
     
  10. Fullpass

    Fullpass Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2017
    Messages:
    41
    Likes:
    1
    Had some engine degreaser in the garage...made by Prestone..hard to wait when you have things to do...went ahead and cleaned the cylinder head up...the Prestone engine degreaser did pretty good, along with some carb cleaner I had...Going to send the Cylinder head out today local machine shop to have it decked...charging me $65...thought that was very fair. The cylinder head cleaned up pretty good, valve seats, look pretty good...will lap the valves once I get the deck back....by hand of course...In the pics below I had put the valves back in momentarily with oil, to get some oil on the guides..didn't want to leave them dry...rust. so you might see some oil in the ports.

    Dana44 Nice Tip
    You are right..those edges around the valve cylinder head chamber are very sharp...I can at least dull them. If you have a pic of the carbide burr cutter that you use would be great.

    So far hadn't had to use the brass wire wheel, or dermal, but can touch up a few things once the cylinder head is back...guess I will use the Gum 2+ 2 on the valves...have them to do yet...or maybe I can just use the brass wheel on the bench grinder, but really everything is cleaning up pretty good with out brass brushing Resized_20170213_080856.jpeg Resized_20170213_081004.jpeg
     
  11. Fullpass

    Fullpass Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2017
    Messages:
    41
    Likes:
    1
    Looking at the above combustion chamber photo...the lower right corner bolt holt has a oil port/chamber...I going to measure the depth of that port...to see how much the machine shop will have taken off...also had read...its important to dermal the chamber depth back for good oil flow. Oh on that note...if the new head bolts do not have exact bolt thickness..some are tapered in the middle like an hour glass factory?...that would be extreme, just pointing out the concept, but if the new bolts are straight, non tapered, the cylinder bolt hole should be widened to get the proper oil flow...Just from what I have read..I hadn't compared my new bolts to the old ones yet...so many little things can make a difference.
     
    #51 Fullpass, Feb 13, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2017
  12. dana44

    Ad-Free Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2002
    Messages:
    19,317
    Likes:
    1,232
    upload_2017-2-13_10-7-53.jpeg I like these two shapes, the one on the right is best. There is a courser cut, as in less swirls for aluminum, but have found for detail work like combustion chambers and going slower, more delicate like around valves is safer. The problem with sharp edges inside combustion chambers is, they do two things. One, collect fuel at the edge because of the shear, so they tend to heat faster than the rest of the combustion chamber and are the first to ping. Second, rounded edges allow fuel and explosions to roll over them and outward. More power and efficiency is gained by having the fuel/air explode with the piston as high as possible in the cylinder instead of having a residual burn as the piston is heading down the cylinder, so they burn cleaner, too. Any sharp edges being rounded is a plus, and the texture the burr cutters leaves is great, prevents the fuel from sticking to the surface. I have had heads I ported, combustion chamber work does the most improvement in performance and efficiency, and removing the heads after more than 100,000 miles has the combustion chambers as clean as the day they were installed (with small carbon build-up spots along the outer edges of the quench pads), whereas the carbide burr cut areas can literally be wiped clean with a rag, nothing sticks to the surface because the little cupping marks left make the flame skip off and outward, expanding the flame front instead of (in stock form) hit the sharp edge and bounce back. Oh, and my oil stays cleaner longer, too.
     
  13. Fullpass

    Fullpass Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2017
    Messages:
    41
    Likes:
    1
    Dana44 ~ Question

    Are you just taking the sharp edges off the flat chamber edge and the valve double arches or going all the way around the combustion chamber, as the sides between the chambers are kind of thin.
     
  14. dana44

    Ad-Free Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2002
    Messages:
    19,317
    Likes:
    1,232
    When it comes to the sides of the combustion chamber between the cylinders, I simply open them so they go straight at the sides to the gasket sealing ring. A taper here doesn't do much because the flame has already gone to the outer edge of the combustion chamber and cylinder so a return bounce is fine. This also opens up the shrouding to the valve itself a tiny bit, then round the pad quench edges, and you can even remove the ridges around the valve seats inside the combustion chamber. Just visualize every single sharp edge as flow restriction, hot spot, or flame stopping, whereas rounded allows flow to move over it, and flame travel to pass across it and outward. Any sharp edge, roll it over about the roundness as the wire on your mouse, while not much, does make a difference.
    -
     
  15. Fullpass

    Fullpass Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2017
    Messages:
    41
    Likes:
    1
    Question ~ Can you put Turbo head gaskets on non turbo models to help prevent overheating issues...more of a safety margin...more passages will be open to the cylinder head? Anyone done that...

    Even if thinking of adding a turbo later or not

    Will say that little car puts out a lot of heat in the car in the winter...but don't need that much...
     
  16. dana44

    Ad-Free Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2002
    Messages:
    19,317
    Likes:
    1,232
    The PT engine is not very known for overheating problems, or blown head gaskets really, it's usually a bad injector (causes a lean heat condition), cooling fan failure, and letting the fluid run low that causes problems. In fact I haven't ever had problems with having to burp the cooling system it is that good. A turbo later, unless it is the low pressure (7psi, no inner cooler and all that) is the stock engine without anything special to begin with. As far as using the head gasket, the water passages in the head gasket simply need to be drilled into the head and the block (if they aren't there) to utilize them. Yes, I always turn the heater down myself, the rest seems to hold together just fine. Oh, and one good way I have been using for literally decades is to drill a 1/16th inch hole in the face of the thermostat so you can have small air bubbles move from the head and through the thermostat while filling it initially, and whenever they are present under the thermostat itself. Never had an issue of air in the block or head ever since. In fact the last Mopar thermostat I bought had a little brass T pin in the right place for just that reason, it moved in a slightly larger hole than the brass T pin, so I just cut it off.
     
  17. Fullpass

    Fullpass Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2017
    Messages:
    41
    Likes:
    1
    Thanks Dana44
    I like the 1/16th hole in the face of the thermostat idea...will do

    Injector part numbers...brand...pressure/flow rating...maybe I can find some on eBay..that have been sonic cleaned and flow tested/matched, local dealer does not have a machine to clean..not looking to buy all new...cost, but sometimes you can find a cleaned set on the internet, shops do this as a service...I have new injector O ring seals from the Fel-Pro kit

    Also I had seen the location of the radiator expansion tank in two locations.

    Which location is better...updated version...might relocate mine

    1. right inner fender strut tower area
    2. engine fire wall

    My radiator expansion tank..'05 is located on the engine fire wall, back behind the engine exhaust manifold there about on the firewall

    I had seen some pictures of the expansion tank being located on the right inside upper fender towards the strut tower.

    The concern...My current expansion tank location on the back firewall..The tank is lower than the radiator neck outlet tube...also the outlet coolant hose from the radiator neck flows up towards the strut tower and down to the expansion tank...just seems like a place for air to get trapped...I'm sure if all the outlet tank hose connections are tight, all is good. Coolant will flow back when radiator cools back down..

    That being said, I still like the idea of having the expansion tank higher up on the strut tower...gravity certainly can't hurt to help the coolant return to the expansion tank when cooling.

    Opinions...as always greatly appreciated...
     
    #57 Fullpass, Feb 15, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2017
  18. dana44

    Ad-Free Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2002
    Messages:
    19,317
    Likes:
    1,232
    My '02s have it on the fire wall and I never had a problem with them there, the hose to it seems to flow upward (for air bubbles to escape in the hose and replace with fluid.
     
  19. Fullpass

    Fullpass Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2017
    Messages:
    41
    Likes:
    1
    2/15 update...picked up the original cylinder head from the machine shop....very happy with the decking job, but the cylinder head did require a full bath with dawn dish soap...several times, looked clean, but just a ton of light aluminum flake just keep coming out of the head ports. Must have washed/rinsed at least 10 times. Had placed cylinder head in a plastic been...used a rinse hose, let water gather at the bottom of been...I would dump the water out and look for any aluminum particles in the water...just a ton swirling...just repeated the process until clear. Hope to have valve in Thursday 2/16 lapped N. I did also take off the sharp edges on the cylinder chambers and ports in the cylinder head...Just with 2000 grit wet sandpaper...to take the sharpness off the edges...Oh did put oil back on valve guides after washing..prevent rust.

    On a different note:

    Surfometer...checks the smoothness of a finish...I don't have one...but used one before...the new decking finish is not as smooth as the original OEM CYLINDER HEAD FINISH....I can feel the finish with my finger nail on the new decking...old finish was smooth like glass...almost...But hey this machine shop dose a ton of engine work for race cars...must know what they are doing. Will post up some pics the 2/16...This engine is going together very soon..:)
     
  20. dana44

    Ad-Free Member

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2002
    Messages:
    19,317
    Likes:
    1,232
    Yeah, that's where the flat glass and 500grit/wet/dry across the face to take off the ridges is needed. Front to back, then 45 degree angles both sides works best and she will be fine. Takes about ten minutes, then rinse again. Ugggh.
     

Share This Page

Loading...
Terms of use and privacy policy. We are not affiliated with FCA. We make no claims regarding validity or accuracy of information or advice. Custom material copyright © 2001-2017 Allpar LLC.