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PSA and FCA formally agree to merge

Discussion in 'Mopar News' started by T_690, Dec 18, 2019.

  1. hmk123

    Level III Supporter

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    I just realized: isn’t the bigger question on whether both Peugeot and Fiat can even survive? Reason being the upcoming tough emission laws In Europe. Maybe someone from Europe or someone with more knowledge can chime in. I just read that if BMW doesn’t sell any EVs in 2020 its fine could reach a billion euros. VW is obviously not betting the farm without a reason. I read the average fleet mileage has to be 4.1 l/100km (57 mpg) for gasoline and 3.6 l/100km (65 mpg) for diesel (estimates for getting to the required CO2 numbers). For BMW to not pay fines it is estimated for them to have to sell 93k EVs in 2020. 2021 will be even tougher. I realize that BMW sells a lot more larger cars and that it should be easier for PSA and FCA. But how close is their fleet average?

    Or will the EU ease up when they realize these companies will not be able to make it? Could one outcome be that only VW group, maybe MB and of course Tesla and some unknowns will be selling cars in Europe 5 years from now? Not even sure what these means for the Japanese automakers selling cars over there. I guess Hyundai has a decent chance. Toyota has its hybrids.

    I have been to Germany the past few years and seen how Fiat’s model line has been falling behind and it is no secret that most profits are coming from the US. Merging with Renault or PSA seemed to make sense to have a relevant presence in Europe. But with these upcoming emissions laws could more European presence be an even greater liability? First you have to have the EV models, then you need to be able to make them in decent numbers and then have consumers ready to accept them. Which means you have to have an infrastructure to charge them.

    Does Europe have a plan that I just don’t get or know about?
     
    #41 hmk123, Dec 29, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2019
  2. T_690

    T_690 Well-Known Member

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    PSA will be compliant while FCA gave a cash to "merge" its fleet with Tesla.

    Ni need to worry.

    NewCo is looking for 2030 targets. They will be #1 or #2 car group in Europe if all goes well.
     
  3. hmk123

    Level III Supporter

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    I hope you are right. I hear you about 2030 but am a little worried about 2020, 2021 and 2022. :) The fleet merge with Tesla was probably the most brilliant and under reported chess move. Do you recall when that deal was done and for how many years they are covered? It obviously also depends on Tesla's sales numbers in Europe...

    Well I just used that search engine thingi and it looks like they are good for 2020:
    FCA CEO: No European CO2 fines for 2 years, thanks to Tesla (at https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/fca-ceo-no-european-union-co2-fines-two-years/ )

    Funny thing is here on allpar "we" thought it was a waste of money:
    FCA will pay Tesla hundreds of millions of Euros to offset emissions (at https://www.allpar.com/forums/threads/fca-will-pay-tesla-hundreds-of-millions-of-euros-to-offset-emissions.219109/ )

    But once BMW, Renault, Peugeot, MB, etc. and most likely even VW Group will pay their fines this was probably a smart move. I am pretty sure it will show that it is not just FCA who was unprepared...
     
    #43 hmk123, Dec 29, 2019
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2019
  4. T_690

    T_690 Well-Known Member

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    Same rules for till the 2024. There is not incremental improvement by each year as in US. Next big date is set for 2025 and its duration is till 2029.

    During 2021 and 2022 there will be introduction of P2 48V MHEV technology. It's 2021 for FCA, 2022 for PSA. Most likely both will use wet DCT with embedded electric motor. PSA had said that by 2025 all of their powertrains will be at least P2 MHEV.

    In th end they are all dependent on customer choice.
     
  5. hmk123

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    Appreciate your insights. The next years will be quite interesting to watch when it comes to personal transportation.

    Does one see vehicles like the Peugeot e-208 and e-2008 driving around already?
     
  6. pumadog

    pumadog Well-Known Member

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    I think customer deliveries won't start before 2020 (also Corsa-E), because 2019 registrations would be "wasted" in terms of emission targets. So far, I've only seen one new Corsa (gas/petrol) on the street.
     
  7. codypet

    codypet Well-Known Member

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    "He has an engineering center in Auburn Hills, two in Paris — one for Peugeot, one for Citroën — there's one in Turin for Fiat and for Opel in Germany," Dudenhöffer said. "Four engineering centers for two platforms — that is ridiculous."

    Uh oh. I'd hate to be in a European Engineering Center right now.
     
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  8. T_690

    T_690 Well-Known Member

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    LOL. There is a lot more than 2 platforms.

    BTW, FCA has 4 different R&D centers which are developing platforms. One is in US, 2 in Italy and one in Brazil. BOF platforms and CUSW for Auburn Hills, Small Wide and all new BEV platform for Turin, Giorgio for Modena, platforms used only in Brazil are developed there.
     
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  9. BASONE88

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    According to Rueters, Mike Manley says "Because customers in different locations still prefer vastly different cars, there is room for multiple platforms in a combined group.." "That global platform is an elusive beast.." and added "This concept of a massive global platform in my mind is almost a myth but that doesn't mean to say that we're not going to recruit significant volume."

    These were comments made, yesterday(01.22.20), by Mr Manley as he was waiting to join in on an industry meeting, ACEA, of which he is president.
     
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  10. 77 Monaco Brougham

    77 Monaco Brougham Active Member

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    Let's remember the REAL reason why VAG is going all-in on EV's. As I recall, they are being forced as part of a legal judgement against them that X number of € (I forget the exact amount) had to be directed toward EV's

    As to your question: Will the EU ease up?
    Just ask a couple of folks over in Europe named Theresa and Boris!:p:D
     
  11. Adventurer55

    Adventurer55 Well-Known Member

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    And since they are a group of islands, and virtually no auto business after this, it means they'll have to import their vehicles from somewhere. Wonder where? Won't be the US or North America, we don't do RHD much. So that leaves Europe. Since most everything they will be making will be electric, I wonder how much Brits will have to pay for them?
     
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  12. 77 Monaco Brougham

    77 Monaco Brougham Active Member

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    My memory might be a little fuzzy on this, but I think JLR still has plants there, as well as Nissan and PSA.

    But for how much longer?

    (cue dramatic sounding organ music).

    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bW7Op86ox9g

     
  13. Adventurer55

    Adventurer55 Well-Known Member

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    Correct, Land Rover and PSA both do, but how much longer Rover's light is beginning to dim again for the umteenth time.
     
  14. BASONE88

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    The "Chrysler" side of the equation is in control this time. That, however, is of little consequence(in at least one regard).

    All things Mopar survived, and have thrived, since EXOR/Elkann/FIAT/SM swooped in. If nothing else, Chryco stayed whole and complete.

    Going forward (for FCA) something like this was inevitable for global stability. Similar to the FIAT-Chrysler synergies, there does seem to be some tangible, complimentary aspects. This merger also has a similar air about it - in regards to one needing the other (equally).
     
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  15. Panterasr9

    Panterasr9 Active Member

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    Maybe a carless, cashless society where everything you do and say can be monitored from your tiny eco home. ;)
     

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