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Question about electrical schematic on Valiant.org

Discussion in 'A Body: Duster, Valiant, Dart, etc' started by Terry Richards, Jun 27, 2018.

  1. Terry Richards

    Terry Richards New Member

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    in the article there are three schematics shown.
    The first schematic shows the original wiring with a one field alternator. It shows the field wire from the alternator going to the mechanical voltage regulator
    The second schematic shows the system with an up-graded two field alternator.one field wire (green) going to the new electronic voltage regulator ...BUT it shows the other field wire grounded to the mounting tab on the voltage regulator... this is not correct is it? Shouldn't the second field wire from the new alternator go to the mounting plug on the new electronic voltage regulator?
     
  2. Terry Richards

    Terry Richards New Member

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    The article I am referring to in the question above is in Valiant .org and it is titled "Chrysler-Plymouth-Dodge Electrical Diagrams"
     
  3. Dave Z

    Dave Z It's me, Dave
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    I wonder if the guy who contributed those is on these forums?
     
  4. 68RT

    68RT Well-Known Member

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    When working with vintage Mopar, you should know about ELECTRICKERY I & II under vintage repairs at ALLPAR. In this case NO. (I) is a complete alternator help. There is an accurate diagram near the bottom.
     
  5. AllanC

    AllanC Well-Known Member

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    I believe this is the article in reference at valiant.org. Here is the link.

    Electrical diagrams for Chrysler, Dodge, and Plymouth cars (at https://www.valiant.org/electrical-diagrams.html )

    I looked at various wiring diagrams that I could find on the internet for Chrysler vehicles 1969 and earlier and 1970 and later. Vehicles with alternators built in 1969 and earlier used a one wire field alternator. The field coil wire was grounded internally to the alternator case. The vehicle used an electro-mechanical voltage regulator which pulsed 12 volt power to the field coil. The alternator field coil was power side pulsed / controlled.

    However starting with 1970 models Chrysler built vehicles used a 2 field wire alternator with both field coil leads electrically insulated from the case. The voltage regulator became electronically controlled and used a 2 pin connector. The I terminal of the regulator provided 12 volt power to the electronic control mechanism and also provided 12 volt power through a separate wire to one side of the field coil. The other insulated field terminal of the alternator was connected through a green wire to the F terminal of the regulator. Thus the alternator field coil was ground side pulsed / controlled. The only way the author's wiring setup for connecting the voltage regulator to the alternator would function properly is if the voltage regulator were power side pulsed / controlled. No where could I find a reference that indicated anything contrary to an electronically controlled voltage regulator that is ground side pulsed / controlled.

    So I agree with you that the author has drawn the blue wire incorrectly from one alternator field connection to the ground of the regulator case. It should be attached to the I terminal wire at the regulator. If you complete the wiring as shown by the author, both sides of the alternator field coil are grounded: 1 side to the regulator case and 1 side electronically through the regulator circuitry. So there is no current flow through the alternator field so no charging current on the alternator battery wire. Other than frustration no damage done. This article makes you wonder if the author wrote this procedure but never actually tested it to see if it worked. See attached image.

    Chrysler Alternator Wiring.gif
     
    #5 AllanC, Jun 28, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2018
    Terry Richards likes this.
  6. Terry Richards

    Terry Richards New Member

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    Thank You for your answer, so at least I know I do have it wired correctly. The article I was referring to was the only one that I seen showing that wire going to the case, but I have been chasing down a short for days and I am beginning to doubt everything. I just posted another addition to my original note, I believe now that I may have a short someplace in my starter circuit ... You seem knowledgeable perhaps you could read my post and give me your opinion. THANK YOU very much !!!!!
     
  7. AllanC

    AllanC Well-Known Member

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    Here are some references to wiring diagrams. Hopefully these will be of some assistance to you.
    \
    Mopar 1966 - 1971 MyMopar - Mopar Forums & Information - Mopar Wiring Diagrams 1966 to 1971 (at http://www.mymopar.com/index.php?pid=27 )

    Mopar 1972 - 1972 Mopar Wiring Diagrams - MyMopar.com - Dodge Plymouth Wiring Diagrams (at http://www.mymopar.com/72to76_wiring.htm )

    First: What is the year, make, model vehicle, body style, engine, transmission? Any modifications from stock?

    Second: What situation / behavior are you experiencing with the starter?
     
  8. Terry Richards

    Terry Richards New Member

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    1968 Dart GTS, 360 Magnum engine, TCI 727 transmission, up-graded electrical system to include 105 amp two field alternator, electronic voltage regulator, amp gage has been by-passed. Hunting down a short, for testing purposes all wires removed from starter relay, all connections to voltage regulator removed, all wires except ground removed from alternator, both battery cables removed, main cable to started left intact. When using a tester set to make a sound when the two probes are touched together, I put one probe on the end of the positive cable and touch the other probe to the header, or any body ground, I get a "beeb" or grounded connection. If I am correct, I should not be experiencing a grounded connection as tested. That is why I believe there is a short somewhere in the starter connection, however the starter works fine. When all the wires were hooked to there proper places with the engine off, the outside case of the alterternator would get slightly warm, but the pulley would have an even higher temperature, keep in mind that the engine had not been run all day and the positive cable had been removed but put back on 30 minutes before I experienced the warm alternator. When I set the probe to test 20 volts DC and put the two probes on the battery posts in there proper places, I could watch the voltage slowly drop. With the engine running, the alternator is putting 15.3 volts to the battery. At first start up everything seems OK, but within 10 seconds with the drivers door open I notice the interior lights flickering and the fan belt starts squealing, and yes the fan belt is sufesonally tight. Since there is no reason for the alternator to get warm just sitting there, and the battery voltage slowly dropping I assumed there was a short and started hunting it down.
     
  9. Bob Lincoln

    Bob Lincoln "CHECK FAULT CODES"
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    Best way to track down a short is to pull fuses one at a time until the short goes away. Then test the devices powered by that fuse.
    Two popular places for short circuits in these cars is the bulkhead connector at the firewall, and the alternator wiring along the valve cover. Sometimes that gets pinched under the valve cover or the insulation scraped through.
     
  10. Terry Richards

    Terry Richards New Member

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    Thank You for your reply, all new wires ran from alternator to voltage regulator and alternator ground. Bulkhead connections have been checked during previous testing. I have not pulled fuses yet but my problem appears to to be in the started cable circuit, although the started works correctly, I can not figure out is with all cables and connections disconnected, why wold I be getting a ground between the positive cable end and body ground? I may be wrong but I do not believe there is a fuse (other than a fusible link) in the starter circuit.
     
  11. Bob Lincoln

    Bob Lincoln "CHECK FAULT CODES"
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    Instead of relying on the buzzer on the multimeter, measure the resistance and post how many ohms.
    Then disconnect the cables to the starter and measure again.
     
  12. Terry Richards

    Terry Richards New Member

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    Good idea, I will do that as soon as I get back from the dentist. I will post my findings. Thank You.
     
  13. AllanC

    AllanC Well-Known Member

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    If you look at a 2 field wire Chrysler alternator from the 1970s era (I will assume that is the unit that is being used) schematics show NO separate ground wire to the unit. It is grounded through the case to the engine. So how / where is this alternator grounded? Is the larger diameter battery wire still attached to the alternator during your testing? See attached image.

    Chrysler 2 Field Wire Alternator  1970s.gif
     
  14. Terry Richards

    Terry Richards New Member

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    The lead from the alternator no longer goes first thru the bulkhead the back to the starter relay. As stated earlier I have up graded the wiring per MAD electrical directions. I have run a ground wire from the alternator and it it grounded with star washers at the voltage regulator mounting. A 6 gage wire now runs from the alternator thru a new fuse block then to a distribution block. A 6 gage wire then runs from the distribution block to the starter relay.
     
  15. Terry Richards

    Terry Richards New Member

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    Again, currently for testing all power has been disconnected from going thru the bulkhead. All wires except the battery cables, have been disconnected, and they are not connected to the battery.
     
  16. AllanC

    AllanC Well-Known Member

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    I am not familiar with MAD electrical directions? Is this the reference link at https://www.valiant.org/electrical-diagrams.html ?

    Is this new ground wire attached to the alternator case? Or attached to one of the alternator field terminals?
     
  17. Terry Richards

    Terry Richards New Member

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    No, I posted a link to their page in an earlier post above.
     
  18. Terry Richards

    Terry Richards New Member

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    If you go to MAD electronic web site, there is a lot of reading.
     
  19. AllanC

    AllanC Well-Known Member

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    I carefully checked all your posts and I find no reference link to MAD electrical? What is the web site address for the MAD electrical?

    Is this new ground wire connected at the voltage regulator body attached to the alternator case? Or attached to one of the alternator field terminals?

    I am thinking that you are using some type of continuity meter that makes a sound when a complete circuit path is found? As mentioned it would be better to use a digital multimeter and check resistance in a path / circuit.

    At this point isolate each component and check for continuity / resistance to ground. Check between the battery terminal at the starter solenoid and the case.
     
  20. Terry Richards

    Terry Richards New Member

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    I went back and looked and you are correct there is no shown link, however I KNOW I typed it in. Anyways I will post it again here. MadElectrical.com - Mad Enterprises (at http://www.madelectrical.com/ ). click on the "Electrical Tech" section.
    Thanks you for the tips. I planned on doing some of the previous suggestions but when I got home from the dentist, and then running a few errands for my wife at first I did not feel like doing anything. It was 95 here today and my garage was 98. I have decided to wait until later when it cools down a bit. To answer your question above I ran a ground wire from the back of the alternator case over to one of the mounting tabs on the case of the voltage regulator. I had to run a wire to ground the alternator so I just grounded both the alternator and the regulator to the body at the same place (although the voltage regulator has two other tabs that also act as a ground for the voltage regulator). I also used new star washers on each of the voltage regulator tabs to ensure a good ground. I checked the ground for both the alternator and the voltage regulator and both are good.
     

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