AF: Rumors are the ones that will kill Chrysler | Page 19 | Allpar Forums
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Rumors are the ones that will kill Chrysler

Discussion in 'Mopar / FCA News' started by Mr.Source, Jun 6, 2018.

  1. CherokeeVision

    CherokeeVision Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2004
    Messages:
    5,936
    Likes:
    2,864
    Does make for some interesting ad slogans. (Friday Humor)

    "Chrysler. Your guess is as good as ours."
    "Chrysler. Do we know where we're going?"
    "Chrysler. Where ID is optional."
     
  2. DAGAR

    DAGAR Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2014
    Messages:
    1,998
    Likes:
    3,190

    Tried the ignore feature, but it's as bad as heavily moderated threads where you have no idea what a person you don't ignore is responding to...
     
    MPE426HEMI, Zagnut27 and Ryan like this.
  3. Ryan

    Staff Member Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2016
    Messages:
    6,893
    Likes:
    12,345
    I used it for a little while on someone but I always ended up clicking "show ignored content" so I could piece together what was going on.
     
    UN4GTBL and T_690 like this.
  4. hmk123

    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 2, 2008
    Messages:
    3,215
    Likes:
    3,273
    Looking at where Cadillac and Lincoln make a lot of their money isn’t what Chrysler might have been missing a worthy replacement of the Aspen? Unfortunately that had never had the time to build name recognition. And who would have put their bets on a body on frame SUV in 2010?
     
  5. Ryan

    Staff Member Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2016
    Messages:
    6,893
    Likes:
    12,345
    It could have been GC-based like the Durango, but then that probably would have limited the Grand Cherokee capacity even more.
     
  6. Bajanbuoy

    Bajanbuoy Durango Dave!
    Level 2 Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2004
    Messages:
    843
    Likes:
    780
    I didn't say that I didn't see the 300 could be going away for a higher margin/larger production vehicles that align better with their Brand. Although I lamented the loss of the Dart and 200, I completely understand the business decision behind it. Same thing with the 300.

    So I wasn't asking you to "help" me understand anything. Moreso, I was asking if that is INDEED the plan, and the 300 will go the way of the Dart and 200, if you "personally" (based on your experience/insight/connections) think that it was viable long-term... I was asking for your opinion on the matter.

    On a personal note; not everything is an argument. Just because someone is posing a question, asking for clarification or in this case asking your personal opinion, does not mean that they are arguing with you. Stop being so defensive. While I appreciate all your hard work, insight and tips, you have a tendency to be overly-sensitive.
     
  7. TripleT

    TripleT Allpar Legacy

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2003
    Messages:
    7,385
    Likes:
    10,193
    I think it will come down to whether Brampton adds a CUV, since they are keeping the hard points for the next versions the 300 could continue on, it would just be a capacity thing. The failure of the Lincoln.... more than anything may have damaged the 300 plan moving forward. Not arguing the merits either way just that that was a pretty big Whiff by Ford. Last week I saw a LOVELY Lancia Wagon, Man it was me... ME I would go ahead and make the 300 bit taller version of that. Keep the nose add through the middle whatever fit comfortably in the manufacturing window. 300 lives
     
    Zagnut27 and UN4GTBL like this.
  8. Bajanbuoy

    Bajanbuoy Durango Dave!
    Level 2 Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2004
    Messages:
    843
    Likes:
    780
    [QUOTE="TripleT, post: 1084977815, member: 8161

    So @bajanbouy and @randy1911, I am not accusing you of lying or being critical of your Opinion. When you use Opinion in that context your using the wrong term. The Word is Impression. You have a Impression or share a impression of resources being unfairly (to Alfa from Chrysler).

    [/QUOTE]


    Wow!!! You simply are not getting it. I had no opinion,... I expressed no opinion... I was saying that this forum has deteriorated due to the over-abundance of the aggressive tone of some of the posters.
     
    Judas Shuttlesworth likes this.
  9. Judas Shuttlesworth

    Judas Shuttlesworth Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2016
    Messages:
    126
    Likes:
    183
    If you ever decide to insult him, let me know and I'll hide the kids. o_O
     
  10. gforce2002

    gforce2002 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2003
    Messages:
    2,128
    Likes:
    1,419
    Heh.

    Still, presuming that what we know of the brand's product plan comes to pass, and that currently its identity is a tabula rasa, an interesting speculative discussion might be what *could* or *should* Chrysler's brand identity be going forward? What should make it unique? What should people think when they hear the name, setting aside whatever people think now?
     
  11. Zagnut27

    Zagnut27 Jeepaholic

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2015
    Messages:
    5,483
    Likes:
    10,758
    I wouldn’t characterize them as “mistakes”...unless an insider misinterpreted information about one vehicle vs another, or something similar.

    I’ve been thinking a lot about this recently. Insiders have said there was no business case for certain types of vehicles, only to see them either being produced or in the developmental pipeline. Were they wrong? Judging with today’s knowledge, yes. But based on market info and company plans for the future at the time, no.

    The market is not static. It’s cyclical. What is out of fashion now, will be in once more in the future. Customer/consumer tastes change over time for a variety of reasons. That’s the nature of pretty much all business.

    We can argue the decisions made by FCA all day...some are real head scratchers for sure. But we don’t know all the info as to how those decisions were made in the time they were decided. We just aren’t privy to all that info, and shouldn’t be. But on that same note, it’s ok to speculate on what the future holds...because the future is not set either. There are plans, for sure, but plans are subject to change.
     
    JavelinAMX, wvutuba and Bajanbuoy like this.
  12. randy1911

    randy1911 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2016
    Messages:
    545
    Likes:
    499
    I posted this and it got erased because I stated I would not respond, but after the mod erased it he said you can't put an opinion out there and not respond so it was deleted, if you state an opinion you must leave room for discussion with arguing or derogatory terms. I altered this to respond to your view point and left it open for discussion, I hope those that have shared my view come forward also.

    Triple t I respect your view, your discourse and everything you stated. I will follow up with more details to substantiate my thinking.

    I will say that your statements and your understandings along with Mike V view points has further very much entrenched my view of Chrysler being left at the door by dancing with the ugly girl to get the elite girl to notice your sensitivity and your humanity cool points. Notice neither girl are the same or are related yet there is some use of one to get the other.

    I further more, believe that the uplifting of Alfa and its position in America going forward has led to the negligence of Chrysler and the re-imaging of its identity.
    There is reasons why Chrysler was stated for America only and the deletion of anything rwd going forward. There is reasons why the future is unclear for Chrysler but is bright and shiny for alfa.

    I completely understand that the two brands are not interchangeable and alfa sits higher than Chrysler and the overlap of vehicles today are not aligned. Please understand I get all of that.

    But with that, the giulia is what the 200 could have and should have been, in the initial planning of the 200 it had a version with rwd, that was raved about but SM didn't believe it would be cost effective or work out, the crossover that alfa has, had underpinnings that was suppose to go to chrysler, the new lwb giulia launching in 3 to 4 years yup 300 replacement that's not happening. The new alfa thats coming with a full size suv yup Chrysler, please understand these are American based vehicles coming so to say as I know you will, these was always made for alfa, ill just say ok your right I'm wrong for lack of arguments, but it's funny lwb vehicles and large full size suvs and the fact that the rwd 200 was planned and destined for America that FCA would go with a small volume brand as you stated alfa is.

    I know you will say I'm wrong and I'm ok with you saying that, I do have alot of information that I don't discuss due to how I got it, but it's ok im fine with you thinking I'm wrong. I'm fine with you stating I'm pushing a false narrative, I know for me and who I come across I will always shine a great light on fca products and recommend the entire portfolio with the exception of Alfa I will continue to show distain and shun the alfa brand in anyone I come in contact with, but that does not taint my love for Mopar it's just different than what I grew up with and I'm fine with that, everything changes. It's alot of information that can justify my point as to yours also. I'm not speaking on made up ideals it's information that led to my thinking and beliefs, so again I think you for sharing you view and thoughts, it has made my view point much deeper than it was prior. It made me do more research and further validation has risen to the surface so thanks again.

    Another aspect to make me further believe this mentality is the plan of Alfa 5 year plan includes the similar framework as Chrysler old plan, a new suv a long wheel base giulia which is the 2021 300, and a flagship sportscar. Internal Chrysler documents was thrown around with a Chrysler version of the challanger pre 2013. So you saying a 300 redesign, an suv and a halo sports car. Seems very similar to alfas now plan.

    Now that a mod said I can state my opinion but allow room for response and discussion I'm all in...
     
    Judas Shuttlesworth and jclick like this.
  13. randy1911

    randy1911 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2016
    Messages:
    545
    Likes:
    499
    Without arguing or derogatory terms*
     
    Judas Shuttlesworth likes this.
  14. TripleT

    TripleT Allpar Legacy

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2003
    Messages:
    7,385
    Likes:
    10,193
    No Alfa has a "underpinning" that was going to Chrysler, the 200 concept was a concept and had no where to be made and didn't fit in Bramptons capacity. The term Large it relative to where they are introduced. A Fairmont being considered Large in Europe.

    Chyrsler was giving a international chance when partnered with Lancia.

    Now prior to 2008 was there a more ambitious plan for Chrysler? But those plans had little to do with reality as Diamler sucked the life out and value out of the entire corporation, and the Wall Street Monster nearly finished her off. She was left dying on the table when SM swept in when her assets were going to be divided up the Marque killed. The new company invest billions in her, unfortunately half of which in a dying segment with negative margins. THERE IS YOUR ERROR. Well honestly it goes back to Lee choosing Eaton or Lutz.

    Who didn't love the 200C concept, but in not a Guilia not part of it is similar other than the layout ..... honestly with what is happen to the category the Guilia might not get approved today. But on has to understand these are not full launch vehicles. They don't have the capacity to compete with any of the range competitors at BMW, Audi, or Japan nears. Alfa is a low volume leading edge experimental platform. It doesn't have the implementation investment to be sorted out to a point of making a satisfactory volume model. people here would have killed it for some of it teething problems and complained mercilessly about the lack of sales volume.

    One can wish that Chrysler could be what Alfa already was, but convincing the world that Chrysler was a Audi or BMW was never going to happen. It simply doesn't have the history to back that up. Big powerful overly soft, Chrome Clad, leather lined boats.
    "got me a car, it's as big as a whale
    And we're headin' on down to the Love Shack
    I got me a Chrysler, it seats about twenty
    So hurry up and bring your jukebox money"

    Then decades of wood clad, Chromed up version of Dodge and Plymouth. That is image that will never be easy to recover from, all predates FCA, heck Lee used to wander through the design department with Nun with a ruler slapping designs back in this phase. There were some magical years with Lutz and Gale but Lee got the last laugh on them with Freaken Eaton.

    There can be no compelling argument made that Chrysler as such could ever be that Audi or BMW. As much as love Mopar, I would never go into the board and be able to out sell Chrysler being Audi. The Alfa plan predates the Chrysler salvation, but has also be altered to market reality. Some of it intended cars have been shuffled to other marques.

    Simply while the red headed step child was dreaming of becoming more, Daimler was poisoning her, she never going to get to go to ball. What ever plan you imagined died with her on the operating table and wasn't coming back even they she was shocked back to life at the last moment.

    NOW.... let me tell you what SM did wrong beside approve the 200. China... He screwed that up badly out of arrogance and ignorance. While there was no way the world was ever going to be convinced that a Chrysler was a Audi or BMW, you sure has heck could have convinced the Chinese that it was as good as a Bu Ick. And no they were never going to be excited about a economy Italian car when they have a billion little economy brands so no if it doesn't say Lambo, Ferrari, Maserati, Alfa ..... they aren't going to be interested. But they buy the heck out of Buicks. The China strategy was botched badly Fiat never should have been introduced the 200, Dart, Dart wagon, and Pacifica should have all been Chryslers and part of the re-launch there. That time may have passed now that they are switching to CUVs. But there was a window they missed badly on. This should be rightfully noted.

    So in the end don't be jealous of Alfa, Alfa waited patiently (or not so Patiently) while Chrysler got her turn. Daimler was never going to let Cinderella go to the ball. One can be rightfully angry about that. But that predated FCA....... Freaken Eaton
     
    #374 TripleT, Jun 16, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2018
  15. aldo90731

    Staff Member Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2010
    Messages:
    10,245
    Likes:
    21,504
    It’s easy to forget nowadays in what sorry state Audi was in 1990. During the 1970s and 1980s, Audi was a pseudo-luxury brand selling tarted-up VWs, much like Acura and Lincoln do today. Following the 1989 Unintended Acceleration issues, Audi had become an absolutely worthless brand. Audi was in worse shape than Chrysler —or Alfa— ever was.

    But by the early 1990s VWAG committed to a plan that would restore Audi not just to its former glory, but even higher, as a Mercedes and BMW equal.

    VWAG is far from perfect, as the still-unfolding Dieselgate saga reminds us. But today Audi’s global standing is the outcome of a successful 25-year comeback story without parallel in the industry. And shows what can be accomplished when you have clarity of vision, confidence, discipline, perseverance, long-term commitment, and follow-through at the highest levels of the organization.

    If Chrysler never came close to being a success story like Audi to me is less a reflection on Chrysler itself; more a reflection on FCA’s lack of imagination, vision, long-term commitment and follow-through at the highest levels of the organization.

    Audi’s 25-year success story couldn’t come out of the mind of a CEO fixated on quarterly financials. Unfortunately, this shortsightedness also means that, Alfa Romeo, too, is unlikely to accomplish the levels of Audi’s successes.
     
    #375 aldo90731, Jun 16, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2018
  16. james.mooney.

    james.mooney. The Poster Formerly Known As "Bethlumboy"

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2007
    Messages:
    2,644
    Likes:
    1,470
    Hopefully, with new leadership and, more importantly in my opinion, being net-debt-free, FCA can start or accelerate making the kind of long-term inroads that you described-- for all of its brands.

    FCA has been in survival mode for all of its existance. Being focused on quarterly financials is what eliminated the net debt, in my humble opinion. Hopefully, the leadership can breathe a little easier now and focus less on survival and more on developing and executing long-term visions for all the brands.

    I understand that many here are skeptical about FCA's future and leadership, and I understand why. All we as enthusiasts can do at this point is wait and see, and hope that the love, investment, magic, and success that Jeep has experienced spreads to the other brands.
     
  17. KrisW

    KrisW Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2015
    Messages:
    2,314
    Likes:
    4,680
    Audi may have had problems in the USA in 1989, but it had a very strong position in Europe, which allowed VAG (as it then was) to pretty much ride out the bad press, just as VW brand has done since the diesel scandal.

    And, it has to be said, Audi's success came out of the mind of a megalomaniac. Ferdi Piëch was driven by desire to own everything worth owning in the European auto industry.

    He even organised a four year whispering campaign to try get his hands on Alfa Romeo, but an "accountant" like Sergio knew what it was worth to FCA.
     
    jorisr and TripleT like this.
  18. TripleT

    TripleT Allpar Legacy

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2003
    Messages:
    7,385
    Likes:
    10,193
    But Chrysler has never been in the segment that Audi and Alfa and BMW so you can’t compare. They whether a mess or not exist in a market space and as International brands. A space Chrysler as a marque has never existed beyond a few concept cars dating back 50s always returning back to large formula and American definition luxury. Then abandoned it. If Chrysler as a marque it has nothing to do with the limited resources of FCA, the Company has always occupied that limited resources area my lifetime except briefly in the 90s where then a gullible CEO and big cash reserve became too big a carrot. It can laid directly at the feet of Lee’s decision to elevate Freakin Eaton and the brand managers insisting on the 200 over a CUV.

    Can it be recovered. Sure but it will not be able to be done following the Alfa or Audi model, it simply doesn’t have the history to back it up.

    I still am critical of the China strategy, as it is one of the places in the world the Old US definition of Luxury still exists. People are still driven. And the largest car market in the world.

    Pacifica, 300, stretch 300, DT SUV would all be embraced there. But no Alfa plan would not work.

    So let’s be productive instead of defeatist.

    If Some freaky Friday accident happened this would be my plan. Move the tooling for the 300 to China don’t displace it entirely, replace it with a tall Chrysler wagon for NA, with the development of s New Yorker model, longer and better appointed, a DT SUV would join the Jeep, Pacifica i would kit and assemble in place of the Fiats, allong with the Chysler K8, Tipo and 500X would get Chrysler branding and appointment. So while not a full international launch a full China and pick and choose for North America. Take on Buick directly. Also Chrysler is the natural place to put the Electric and higher Hybrids China and NA.

    Lack of imagination implies one has imagination. So pretend your Chrysler’s brand manager and I am SM and the peanut gallery is the board. Sell US what’s your plan.Let turn this positive.
     
    #378 TripleT, Jun 16, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2018
    GasAxe, danbek, MoparJoe and 2 others like this.
  19. james.mooney.

    james.mooney. The Poster Formerly Known As "Bethlumboy"

    Joined:
    Feb 10, 2007
    Messages:
    2,644
    Likes:
    1,470
    I've been thinking for a while now that a positive solution to a couple of problems might be to produce large Chrysler sedans in Italy.

    The Grugliasco plant that builds the Maserati Quattroporte and Ghibli has excess capacity, as evidenced by its frequent temporary closures.

    If FCA decided to produce a new 300 and a new Imperial based on the next-gen Maserati sedans and export them to the US and China, they could:

    *run the Grugliasco plant at or near full capacity, which would benefit FCA in general and the assembly workers specifically.

    *open up capacity at Brampton for more RWD Dodge vehicles alongside the Charger and Challenger (D-CUV, maybe a D-sedan and/or coupe).

    *give American Chrysler enthusiasts the large, comfortable sedans they want while also providing flagship vehicles for the rest of the FWD-based lineup.

    *give less-affluent Chinese buyers an affordable alternative to the Maserati sedans, with American style and flavor.

    *more quickly amortize the cost of developing the next-gen Maserati sedans.

    If the plant becomes capacity-constrained, all the better. They could focus on building the higher trims and reducing discounts, thereby improving margins.
     
    #379 james.mooney., Jun 16, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2018
  20. randy1911

    randy1911 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 15, 2016
    Messages:
    545
    Likes:
    499
    I like your solution in your post but I would make it more feasible in reality.
    With the current out look and capacity at Brampton, why not redesign the 300 keep the vehicle but make it in three trims, make the regular sedan 300, make a magnum 300 and make a coupe based 300 off of the redesigned challanger framework. This would give Chrysler 3 vehicles with as little investment as possible. Dodge keeps all their vehicles and the split would be 80 to 100k vehicles for chargers, 50 to 60k for challangers and with the new 300C, 300 magnum, and 300 SC you output would be 75 to 90k vehicles together.

    This would solve many a problem and cost the least possible for introduction of vehicles along with keeping Chrysler relevant. It would allow changing the death focus of the brand with new blood because the platform for all the cars are the same the modification would be the same they would all share powertrain and materials with different layouts.

    The new 300 vehicles would be 40 percent sedan at 35k vehicles, 20 percent coupe at 17k vehicles and 40 percent magnum at 35k vehicles. Make the percentage modular to go up and down with consumer demand, and there you have it, it's still Brampton with great use but 5 vehicles with the 300 having 3 versions of itself. You can still go forward with the cuv off of the Pacifica or what ever you want to do at other facilities but this could be a great solution.

    I know people will say the segment is changing to SUVs but I'll retort and say Chrysler is on par to sale 48k to 50k sedans this year, there is no magnum type vehicle to base ur segment changing mantra to and a coupe in small numbers give the consumers choice that I believe could sale 20k vehicles a year easily. Someone must offer alternatives to SUVs and cuvs the industry is becoming stagnant and saturated. This gives you an plan that's cost effective and brand rejuvenating.

    I don't believe any of this would happen no matter how good the idea due to how I believe (opinion) Sergio sees Chrysler as the red headed step child.
     
    Bajanbuoy likes this.

Share This Page

Loading...
 We are not affiliated with FCA. We make no claims regarding validity or accuracy of information or advice. Copyright © VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.