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Rumors are the ones that will kill Chrysler

Discussion in 'Mopar / FCA News' started by Mr.Source, Jun 6, 2018.

  1. Ryan

    Staff Member Level III Supporter

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    Something to keep in mind is incentives. @aldo90731 has already said incentives don’t create new sales, they only move future sales forward so basing an entire brand around a vehicle that is relying on incentives to sell would be an awful idea.
     
  2. aldo90731

    Staff Member Level III Supporter

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    Again, Chrysler’s —or Alfa’s— possibilities are only limited by management’s imagination, vision, discipline and determination.

    Yes, I agree that Alfa Romeo represents a path of least resistance to global markets than Chrysler does. But that in itself does not guarantee Alfa’s success any more than Chrysler‘s failure.

    Audi shows that what really determines success is management’s vision, discipline and commitment to making it happen.
     
    #382 aldo90731, Jun 16, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2018
  3. aldo90731

    Staff Member Level III Supporter

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    Indeed. Incentives do not generate new demand.

    Demand is the desire to purchase a vehicle based on styling, performance, safety or reliability. What incentives do is pull future demand forward.
     
  4. srm3500

    srm3500 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah because that idea worked so well in 1998-2005 :rolleyes: What most seem to forget is that right now FCA is as healthy as just Chrysler LLC was back at that time, only this time it looks like FCA is going to keep going instead of selling the C part again. :cool::D
     
  5. aldo90731

    Staff Member Level III Supporter

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    Indeed. That same megalomania is behind both, the vision and dogged determination that built Audi into a Mercedes competitor, as well as the arrogance that ended in Dieselgate.

    But that doesn’t mean that megalomaniacs are the only ones with vision, discipline and determination, or that accountants are inherently immune to arrogance.
     
    #385 aldo90731, Jun 16, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2018
  6. TripleT

    TripleT Allpar Legacy

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    Here the deal you make a ok argument but the ruin it at the end. No he doesn’t he just spent a buttload of money got his big kicked. So yes he has reservations given that and the failure of the Lincoln so me pretending to be SM.

    Don’t accuse if your going to convince me.

    Me being SM

    How Dare you accuse me of treating your brand poorly after the Billions we spent on the 200 and van.

    Your not getting a coupe to cannablize the Challenger. The brand has no history in that segment.

    I will give you a Magnum as long as it tall enough to be considered a SUV and marketed that way. And it better sell enough to fill the capacity.

    With that there is not enough capacity at Brampton, i would have considered a 300 off the CUSW+ but after what happen to Lincoln there is no way.

    What data do you have the CUV market is saturated? Toyota and Honda is still out for there conversion plan, Ford also. What do you know they don’t?

    I will authorize early development of a luxury sedan if that data can be backed up, but not implemented unless you can shownt that margins will exceed a CUV
     
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  7. TripleT

    TripleT Allpar Legacy

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    Ok easy then let’s hear It because we seem to agree it will be harder for Chrysler then Audi or Alfa.... what’s your plan. Based on your experience.
     
  8. james.mooney.

    james.mooney. The Poster Formerly Known As "Bethlumboy"

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    It sounds like a cool lineup but I doubt there is a business case. The profits from the two new body models likely would not justify their development costs (this is likely the reason my idea to build Chrysler sedans in Italy isn't feasible either). Also, I do not know how flexible the line at Brampton is and if it could produce 5 separate models without substantial investment in upgrades.
     
  9. TripleT

    TripleT Allpar Legacy

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    5 is pretty complex and it would need to be shown that 2 more would make margin more then the Charger, Challenger, and a L CUV and enough to more to justify the development, implementation, and complexity

    Think it’s possible to make Chysler in Italy especially for the China market, from a Tariff perspective assemble there on the smaller volume makes more sense
     
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  10. Bajanbuoy

    Bajanbuoy Durango Dave!
    Level 2 Supporter

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    Hmmm...

    I like @randy1911's idea of making the 300 into a "line"... However, as much as I personally love wagons and hatchbacks, the 300 "tourer" or "estate" is a harder sell, and @TripleT's suggestion of making it a higher riding CUV/SUV is more plausible. Make it as tall as the Journey, lengthen it to where the Magnum was, which is an additional 5", 3-rows and make sure that the 3rd-row is easily accessible....
    Possible names:
    Chrysler Concordia
    Chrysler Concourse

    I also like the coupe idea... Someone mentioned that there is no "coupe" history or heritage, but that is not the end-all-be-all... I envision this coupe as a Shooting-Brake.

    upload_2018-6-16_11-8-15.png

    Similar to this rendering but somewhere in the middle of a Kia Stinger and the Jaguar Sportbrake

    This will focus on rear passenger headroom and comfortability. Adding another 6 inches to the trunk will add about 3" of cargo/trunk space, which is important for this market. Also, give it the hatchback design of the Magnum, where you could stand right at the bumper and not have to back up when it opens. This coupe would be a GT/Supercruiser, with no, I repeat no "hubcap" model.
    Possible Names:
    Chrysler Citadel (I know, I know,- Durango, name-switching.. but it just fits so well) :D
    Chrysler Alpine
    Chrysler Chronos
    Chrysler Nassau

    Both of these vehicles would feature Hybrid technology, AWD, and again, focus on Driver and Passenger Comfort and entry/near-luxury.

    I'll even consult with them on Advertising and Marketing; here's a few tag lines:

    "Chrysler; Travel... Better"
    "Chrysler; Your Comfort is Our Priority"
    "Chrysler; We make traveling,... worth it"
    "Chrysler; Luxury... for less"

    If Chrysler is serious about becoming a "people-mover" brand, these tag-lines can become Mantras to help to focus and define their brand identity.

    I already have commercial pitches as well,... Any FCA Execs who are reading can PM me, I'll be happy to consult. ;):D:cool:
     
  11. JavelinAMX

    JavelinAMX Well-Known Member

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    .

    So, reaching net-debt-zero was an impediment to beneficial decisions.

    .
     
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  12. JavelinAMX

    JavelinAMX Well-Known Member

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    July 2010, I submitted to Gilles my version of a 'differently rendered', modified Challenger. Poorly done - admittedly - not being a graphic artist, and the narration I provided suggested two possible approaches to the same idea.

    I tried to hash-out a hint using Win Paint ( Of all things. I'm something closer to an uncoordinated octopus with nerve damage, though, where graphic artistry is concerned ). It turned-out like a photocopy of a photograph modified and dirtied-up by hand using artist's Charcoal - best way I can describe it.

    I suggested that old AMC had a concept that never saw light of day as a sport vehicle, but which was the test-bed for one of AMC's most well-known profiles. Here's the Concept :

    [​IMG]

    And its alternate :

    [​IMG]

    My inept rendering simply tried to show how the Challenger might look with the AMX-GT melded into it. I also described subtle changes and offered pictures nicked from the I-net to flesh-out the idea narrative. Likely, pushing a 116" wheelbase Challenger into the skin of a 97" wheelbase AMX-GT/Gremlin might be a difficult visualization process, too.

    But, to your point, I think a Shootingbrake version could be pretty cool.

    Sorry for the distraction ... as you were.


    .
     
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  13. 77 Monaco Brougham

    77 Monaco Brougham Well-Known Member

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    Yet!...;)
     
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  14. james.mooney.

    james.mooney. The Poster Formerly Known As "Bethlumboy"

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    The goal of eliminating net debt forced FCA to prioritize development projects that they believed would bring the highest returns the most quickly.

    Not every decision, in hindsight, was successful; for example, developing the Dart and 200 instead of a new Journey and a Chrysler CUV was a mistake.

    (The mistake was investing in shrinking segments in which they were so far behind sales- and reputation-wise that it would have required a long-term investment with significant financial losses to make headway. To their credit, Mr. Marchionne and his team realized before most of the industry that, unless you have the sales volume of Toyota and Honda, there was no profit to be made in these segments as consumer preference continues to shift toward CUVs. They pulled out of those segments because the long-term goal of reestablishing FCA in those segments was simply too costly in the short term and, depending upon how far the market shifts away from sedans, may have ended up being fruitless in the long term as well.)

    FCA's leadership has made other mistakes as well in forecasting how successful certain plans would be, including but not limited to the U.S. launch of the Fiat brand. However, these mistakes do not mean that the goal of eliminating net debt was the wrong course to take. Overall, the plan was and has been solid. Implementation has had it hiccups and not every smaller goal has been met, but eliminating net debt was the right thing to do and it puts FCA on much firmer ground moving forward.

    My point is that, now that FCA's relatively short-term goal of eliminating net debt has been attained, they can focus more on long-term goals, including building the less-profitable brands, i.e. Chrysler, Dodge, Fiat, and maybe even Lancia.

    25% of the total development money being allocated to those 3-4 geography-limited brands may seem like a relatively small part of the pie compared to the 75% earmarked for the 4 global brands (Jeep, Ram, Maserati, and Alfa Romeo), but it is still significant, and now that FCA is net-debt-free, it's 25% of a larger pie.
     
    #394 james.mooney., Jun 17, 2018
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2018
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  15. EVOL

    EVOL Active Member

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    I dont agree with that at all. Incentives by all means create new sales. Specific ones that are targeted to move sales forward do as such but not all of them, not even close.
     
  16. MoparJoe

    MoparJoe Well-Known Member

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    IF I didn't get the $2,000 off + $2,500 bonus Employee + Employee , I would NOT have ordered my new Durango ....
    I probably would of ordered a 2018 Ram as there was almost $24,500 Can. off
     
  17. JavelinAMX

    JavelinAMX Well-Known Member

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    True enough - A 40 MPG Chrysler CUV just might've been the proper target for their effort to produce the Compliance Car outlined in the BK Demands.

    However, not having traveled that road we don't know if they would've abandoned that vehicle with the same speed and ease as happened with the Dart. FCA's CEO has shown over time that he's not real keen having to cow-tow to some other authority ( California CARB requiring zero emissions vehicles in the maker's portfolio to sell any vehicle in that State {F500e}; the BK requirement to make and sell a 40 MPG auto - being just two such situations to contemplate ) .

    Regarding going global : We, here, seem to rub our hands with glee at the thought. Fine. I haven't seen the step-by-step plan for when two or more of the global markets ( outside of NAFTA ) simultaneously face financial difficulties. What, exactly, will FCA be doing to navigate to maintain the margins and volumes? Will FCA quickly retract from those zones (perhaps returning when stability reasserts itself)? What will they do when both NAFTA and the Euro zone falter - in quick succession or simultaneously? What then?

    As a sidebar : I don't consider building a Sedan a negative. Even if you have a place-holder model in a temporarily lower performing segment, you're not going through the re-introduction processes (costly) where it seems the company is always breaking new ground for them ( in the same freakin' segment !! ). There ARE certain losses in maintaining that presence; that's true. Yet, the less-obvious gains can't be easily and simply dismissed. We rarely, if ever, read about the 'profit' of Continuity ... the 'rolling advertising' ( even if only a subliminal gain ... it's a gain nevertheless ), the instant presence in any given segment which can be re-jiggered, as necessary to keep the company name as an accepted player - not so much as a Wannabe. The killer is the habitual Re-entry in any given segment that spike losses. I believe FCA needs one each : A Dart-type sedan and an Avenger-like sedan. One Chrysler; one Dodge. Content them according to their market response each MY. We're now reacting to a market shift. The market DOES shift. Let's not be caught sleeping when it begins to shift back - or to yet another paradigm.

    These are professional auto makers. I'm holding them to common professional auto maker expectations. I'm not expecting these women and men to be superheros.

    .
     
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  18. 77 Monaco Brougham

    77 Monaco Brougham Well-Known Member

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    One word of caution. Net-Debt-Zero is not the same as saying the company is debt-free. The company is still carrying a great deal of debt overall.

    Now....back to the positive. In all fairness, Marchionne accomplished what just about all of Wall Street said (so smugly)....couldn't be done. The fact that FCA has attained Net-Debt-Zero is indeed a cause for celebration!

    It's a lovely day today.....Let's all go out and dance the Tarantella!

    View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W3uJCwXPj9I
     
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  19. valiant67

    valiant67 ...

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    Sorry I don't buy this excuse - the same problem that exists in the sedan market and caused FCA to exit there still exist in the CUV/SUV segments. Only now it's hidden by the total volumes in those segments (just like it was hidden in the sedan markets for years). FCA can't compete with the volume sellers. For all the success of Jeep, look at sales of Toyota and Honda in comparison. They didn't learn from the sedan failures and are repeating the same in a different segment. Why do Honda and Toyota have the volume and FCA doesn't, be that in sedans or CUVs?
     
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  20. james.mooney.

    james.mooney. The Poster Formerly Known As "Bethlumboy"

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    I'm not sure what you mean here. Nothing I wrote was intended as any kind of excuse. I made a common, and in my opinion, well-reasoned argument. Feel free to disagree and offer a counter-argument, but I have no reason to make excuses for decisions I didn't make. I'm not a mindless apologist who thinks the leadership can do no wrong. I know that, for me personally, I tend to take people's arguments more seriously when they don't start by accusing me of making excuses. Excuses are by their nature disingenuous. I am quite sincere in the argument that I made.

    What would you have them do differently at this point? Wave a magic wand and erase decades of history of sub-par quality, decontenting under DBAG, and brushes with liquidation in order to give them a reputation and sales volume equal to Toyota and Honda?

    I don't know. Why?
     
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