Hello, Allpar Forums member or visitor! If you were a member, you would not see this ad!

Register or log in at the top right of the page...

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

"Swoop of a Secret Weapon"

Discussion in 'Historical' started by Beentherebefore, Oct 23, 2013.

  1. Beentherebefore

    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2012
    Messages:
    4,257
    Likes:
    1,374
    The story I heard back in the day was similar but involved a quickie restroom break ;) .
     
  2. DC-93

    DC-93 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2014
    Messages:
    1,626
    Likes:
    802
    Petty and Marcis won the Manufacterers Championship for Dodge in '75. 16 wins between them, IIRC.
    Numerous top 5s.

    As far as marketing goes, Nascar racing is irrelevent to selling cars. Decades ago, that faded.

    I'd see folks wearing a Bobby, Cale or David shirt and hat climbing into their Honda or Toyota and driving home after the race! Damn shame, IMO. Me? I climbed into my Dodge Charger... :drive: and drove home...
     
  3. Beentherebefore

    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2012
    Messages:
    4,257
    Likes:
    1,374
    A good marketing staff can easily tie in a racing program to an effective media campaign. Remember those "Hey Jeremy" commercials (where Mayfield's date bathes in transmission oil to smell attractive to him) when Mayfield drove for Evernham's Dodge team? Those were classic, imo. Friends/family that are Nascar fans still remember and mention those and they were produced over 10 years ago. BK would have made for a similar humorous subject (and probably was still under a Dodge personal services contract when he won the Nascar Cup championship), as would have Kurt Busch when he drove for Dodge. The company had already spent the money & effort that paid off with a Nascar Cup championship but they preferred to just skulk off the stage without so much as a whimper. The current Chrysler marketing dept may yet make the textbooks as the classic example of how to blow a golden marketing opportunity while they flounder around for years trying to re-establish a "performance" image for the Dodge brand.
     
    MPE426HEMI likes this.
  4. MoparNorm

    MoparNorm Active Jeeper
    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2008
    Messages:
    31,153
    Likes:
    7,679
    While I agree there has become a disconnect, I put part of that blame on Chrysler marketing for not taking full advantage of the potential.
    Corporate has become so enamored with hiring folks with MBA degrees, they pass over a lot of talented people who could benefit the company. Education is great, but it's no measure of intelligence or talent. They should be looking for the best people for the marketing campaigns, not the most educated, but the most talented.
    The pap coming out of marketing and the missed opportunities, is a crime. The corporations are so scared of the PC green movement, they down play performance. Instead they should be tying the two together. Performance is efficiency and efficiently is green. It's time to make driving American, a source of pride. The Superbowl commercials were notable because they play on that, the Ram commercials play on that. Dodge as the performance brand, needs to play on that and they need real performance results to pull it off.
    I think NASCAR can still be relevant, if marketing at Chrysler is relevant.
     
  5. Beentherebefore

    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2012
    Messages:
    4,257
    Likes:
    1,374
    Nascar is relevent to selling cars to Nascar fans. Fans may drive to the races in Hondas and Toyotas, but at least they will be associating Dodges with the sport they love if they see them competing. If they never see any Chrysler products on the tracks, the company's products will be "out of sight - out of mind" for a lot of them. I can't see GM, Ford, or Toyota spending the millions of $$$ that they do in Nascar if their marketing surveys didn't show a connection between Nascar and selling cars. Recent statements by the racing execs of all 3 companies all confirm that they believe that there is a connection.

    I ain't buyin' it that "the whole (major car manufacturer) army is out of step" here except the marketing whizzes at Chrysler.
     
    ptschett and MoparNorm like this.
  6. DC-93

    DC-93 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2014
    Messages:
    1,626
    Likes:
    802
    Look at how many Manufacturing Champonships Chevy has won in Nascar and what do they have to show, other than declining market share?

    I'd rather see Chrysler's money go into building quality products. Remembering a Mayfield commercial doesn't pay the rent.
    Associating memories with a Dodge on the track for entertainment value, but driving home in a Honda or Toyota again, doesn't pay the rent!

    I tracked sales after Penske ran 1-2 in the Daytona 500 in "Dodges". Absolutely no uptick in sales afterwards...

    I guess we disagree on this subject, and that's fine!!
     
  7. Beentherebefore

    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2012
    Messages:
    4,257
    Likes:
    1,374
    Looking for a sales uptick because of results from one race (and that particular Daytona race was right at the beginning of 'The Great Recession") is probably not a good indicator of the marketing value of participation in Nascar. Relatively steady year-after-year sales totals for a now 9 year old Dodge Charger model might be a better indicator of the car's "performance" reputation. My guess is that you will be seeing a slow decine in Charger sales in the coming years as the car loses it's reputation as a "performance" brand. Where else can a Charger enhance it's "performance" sedan reputation except in Nascar racing? It's too big for any kind of sports sedan racing. Maybe "Charger" Funny Cars in NHRA will uphold the reputation.

    I'm all for the company spending to enhance their quality but they never seem to be able to quite reach the Honda-Toyota level and would need to be at that level for decades to achieve a real "quality" reputation. The company just settled on "affordable performance" as the Dodge marketing theme for the next few years. That, to me, means some "performance" in major league US racing series and that means Nascar.
     
  8. MoparNorm

    MoparNorm Active Jeeper
    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2008
    Messages:
    31,153
    Likes:
    7,679
    The problem with that , is perception (not yours) by the customers.
    Right now, the general knowledge is that Dodge isn't in NASCAR. Thanks to marketing, there was nearly zero mention of that 1-2 finish, or any mention of the 2012 Championship.
    The Marketing department at Chrysler would have made the CIA proud, with their secret keeping abilities.
    Just yesterday we discovered that Viper won a race at the 'Ring, two weeks ago!

    Maybe racing doesn't resonate as much as it did in the '60's, but performance does and Dodge has apparently claimed the performance mantle for its marketing program for the next 5 years... So there should be something to that and the public perception of a non-performance "performance" company, will be interesting to watch,
     
    Dave Z likes this.
  9. DC-93

    DC-93 Active Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2014
    Messages:
    1,626
    Likes:
    802
    Very valid points guys!

    Perhaps they are goint to improve the "street cred" of the Charger? Positive word of mouth on the street costs nothing.
    The drag racing program is humming along. Maybe they figure anyone can stand on the gas at the traffic light and go in a straight line? lol...
    Although very tweaked, Pro Stock Darts at least look more like production cars than Nascar vehicles...

    It'll be interesting to see where it all pans out in 5 years or so.
    I wonder what will be left of Nascar in 5 years? Wholesale losses at the grand stands and viewership is dropping too.

    Things are changing. Just heard that Popular Hotrodding Magazine is folding up.
     
  10. Mike V.

    Mike V. Mopar-nac The Moderator
    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2008
    Messages:
    24,635
    Likes:
    18,178
    Let's get back on track guys ;)

    Mike
     
    Dave Z likes this.
  11. MoparNorm

    MoparNorm Active Jeeper
    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2008
    Messages:
    31,153
    Likes:
    7,679
    (Please bear with one more thought here Mike)

    It was ironic, if not cruel, that Dodge pulled the plug on NASCAR at the precise moment the return to stock appearing bodies started.
    The 2013 NASCAR Charger was a beautiful thing to see, all that wasted effort and design and engineering costs trumped at the last moment by a change of plans in "accounting".

    Now, back to the swoop.
    BeenThere and DC93, please feel free to continue this in a new thread here at Motorsports. It's very interesting for a lot of readers.
     
  12. Beentherebefore

    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2012
    Messages:
    4,257
    Likes:
    1,374
    10 - 4 Norm,

    I believe that the marketing (or lack of) discussion has already been going on for weeks (if not months) on two threads in the main Motorsports section. So.....................back to "Swoop". Here is part of the page from "The New York Times"'s coverage of the '64 Daytona race;

    [​IMG]
     
  13. MoparNorm

    MoparNorm Active Jeeper
    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 2, 2008
    Messages:
    31,153
    Likes:
    7,679
    In the article, John Holman, of the famed Holman-Moody was then head of Ford Racing. He bought a Hemi from a local dealer to see if the engine was really a production engine.
    Makes me wonder if that engine was the basis for later Fords.
    And also kind of sad that the current Mopar Vapor Ware shown at SEMA and other places rarely makes it part number and ordering status.
    1964 to 2014, 50 years of living off of one event, that lasted but a brief time in space. It would be nice to see another seismic event by Chrysler, to once again reclaim the crown of performance. A real one earned by engineering, not marketing.
     
  14. Beentherebefore

    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2012
    Messages:
    4,257
    Likes:
    1,374
    Holman was trying to prove to Nascar that the Hemi was a special-for-racing-teams only motor and would not be available to anyone from a Chrysler dealer, as Nascar rules at that time required. As the article points out, it was a desperate effort to get the Hemis banned from the race as Ford had been caught with it's pants down. I recall reading somewhere else that the particular dealer that he went to had three 426 Hemis sitting in his parts room. I'm guessing that if Holman had traveled to, say, a dealer several hundred miles away, he would not have found any Hemis sitting in their parts room. How Chrysler got the Hemis to the right dealers in sufficient quantities to satisfy Nascar shows very good planning and coordination........ or damn good luck :lol: .

    I'm sure that Ford was interested in a closeup look at the 426 Hemi, but, remember, the basic architecture of Chrysler Hemis was around since 1950, so they probably wouldn't be learning a lot. As the article points out, Ford already had their OHC 427 in the wings and they put a lot of pressure on Nascar in the next few years to try to get it approved for competition. Luckily, Nascar never acquiesced or the door to unlimited all-out motors would have been opened. IIRC, HRM had a pictorial in one of their issues in the 60s of a DOHC Chrysler 426 Hemi.
     
  15. dyslexic teddybear

    dyslexic teddybear Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    628
    Likes:
    307
    Would have been interesting if the cammer Ford had ever been used.

    Suspect some reliability issues with an 8 foot timing chain.....

    Perhaps a pit stop would have been......4 tires, fuel, and wedge and timing chain adjustment.

    This odd thought prompted by an article I read a long time back, somebody put a cammer into year appropriate Fairlane for show and limited street cruising. A timing chain adjustment was mentioned before every time he took it out.
     
  16. Beentherebefore

    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2012
    Messages:
    4,257
    Likes:
    1,374
    I would think that if Nascar had ever allowed the Ford OHC motor to run, that Ford would have put the necessary development work into making it reliable (it was used in NHRA racing - Connie Kalitta ran one in a top fuel dragster and so did Prudhomme). Ford continued to push Ol' Man France to make it legal for Nascar racing in the mid 60s. Here is another article from the SI archives mentioning Ford pushing Nascar to legalize it for their 1966 season;


    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1078259/1/index.htm

    Using the SOHC motor as a threat (the above referenced article calls it a "bluff" by Ford) got Ford a lot of concesions. I believe that you already saw what I posted on the other Nascar Historical thread about Ford being allowed the use of a 2 X 4bbl intake setup on their 427 wedge motors to counteract the Hemis. Starting in '67, Ford was also allowed to run their "Fairlane" models which had wheelbases several inches less than the Chrysler "B" bodies.That gave them a pretty good advantage on the larger tracks (results in '67 and particularly in '68 substantiate that) and appeased Ford racing execs till their own 429" "Shotgun Hemi" was ready in '69.
     
  17. Beentherebefore

    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2012
    Messages:
    4,257
    Likes:
    1,374
  18. Fast Eddie

    Fast Eddie Valued Member
    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2014
    Messages:
    1,471
    Likes:
    1,307
    I had a buddy who was a dyno guy at Ford and the chain was a problem. They would break at high speed, blow through the magnesium front cover with a bright explosion of light, and then walk around the dyno cell from floor to ceiling and back again until it ran out of momentum. Pretty exciting....................of course at Chrysler we had some pretty dramatic moments too when parts of an engine would fail on the dyno.!!
     
    dyslexic teddybear likes this.
  19. Beentherebefore

    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2012
    Messages:
    4,257
    Likes:
    1,374
    Like I told "dyslexic" in post #37, I think Ford would have worked diligently to solve any chain problems had the motor ever been approved for Nascar racing. They continued to push Nascar to approve it - article from SI called it a Ford "bluff".............

    (corrected link); http://www.si.com/vault/1966/03/07/607652/the-return-of-the-exile-was-rich-and-racy

    Actually, you have to give Ford credit for the way that they played the SOHC card. They already had an advantage in '67 and '68 with their 2 X 4bbl setup on their "tunnelport" 427 Nascar motor (at least on the large tracks) and then they kind of surprised everyone with their 429 "Shotgun" hemi in 1969. There was nothing seriously wrong with that motor and it was more than a worthy competitor for the Mopar Hemi.
     
  20. dyslexic teddybear

    dyslexic teddybear Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    628
    Likes:
    307
    Suspect things could get exciting!!

    I'll bet "walk" when describing moving around the dyno cell is an understatement.

    IIRC.....I believe this comes from Gale Banks Re-turbo-dyno testing.....

    He first saw what a turbo could do witnessing a Offy 4 cly dyno run back in the day. Absolutely incredible hp/tq numbers.

    He also first saw what a turbo could do when a half second later the interior of the dyno room was VERY quickly painted with a mixture of racing oil and expensive Offy engine parts.
     
    ptschett likes this.

Share This Page

Loading...