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The end of gas cars???

Discussion in 'Auto News & Rumors' started by wolfsblood07, Sep 25, 2020.

  1. Dave Z

    Dave Z It's me, Dave
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    And wht the heck is ZME?
     
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  2. valiant67

    valiant67 ...

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    I saw a commentary on TV that speculated that when battery costs lower (as they likely will) that it will be cheaper to produce and operate an electric car instead of an IC car. If and when the costs are truly lower for an EV over an IC - then it would be the end (or a great reduction in most likely) gas cars. Technology and market forces, not regulations, would be the end.
     
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  3. vipergg

    vipergg Well-Known Member

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    They will only surpass them if they make them a lot cheaper and also be able to charge them in the same time you can fill a typical gas tank . Also how long does the charge last in the winter when you have the heater and say a rear window defroster going and it is 10 degrees out like it is in a large portion of the country ?
     
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  4. voiceofstl

    voiceofstl Well-Known Member

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    The biggest drawback for Evs are for apartment people. If you live in a house you just plug the car in every night. Everyone is worried about that 500 mile trip. How many folks do that? If you do then you need hybrid like the Pacifica where the first 30 miles is all electric. I could use that I rarly fo over 30 miles in 1 day.
     
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  5. Dave Z

    Dave Z It's me, Dave
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    Apartments are starting to get chargers.
     
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  6. valiant67

    valiant67 ...

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    Yep, most comparison sites now let you select charger availability in their criteria.
     
  7. 68RT

    68RT Well-Known Member

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    If an apartment adds charging stations, they will become part of the revenue stream. Either by raising rents or the stations will be operated by your credit card. One must remember: Nothing is truly free. Someone has to foot the bill and charging stations are expensive to install.
     
  8. Dave Z

    Dave Z It's me, Dave
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    The power isn't a big deal, they can smartcard the power (or as you say, use your credit card). The install expenses are probably not a big deal amortized over ten or twenty years.
     
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  9. valiant67

    valiant67 ...

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    Or if subject to tax credits as they were (are?) in some areas.
     
  10. 68RT

    68RT Well-Known Member

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    Tesla figures $100k-150k to install a supercharger. A low power charger will cost at least $1-2k if access to power is already there. A lot cheaper if planned at construction. Running power later gets very expensive. Once they get enough vehicles out there to create mass, those subsidies will be long gone. It will happen but how long is unknown. CA is the backbone of this movement.
     
  11. Dave Z

    Dave Z It's me, Dave
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    I don't figure they would install the most expensive chargers, I assumed the low power models. $2,000 per space is not a huge amount. They charge $20/month plus electricity for the space, it pays off in around eight years, and in the meantime they may get renters they wouldn't have had otherwise. If the charger is only $1,000, and I'd assume prices are coming down as time goes on, then it pays off in a much faster time.
     
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  12. 68RT

    68RT Well-Known Member

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    At apartment installation, a level 2 charger would be the least that you should have. Level 1 just won't give an overnight fill. You will also have to deal with either having it close to the entrance or making it remote. Remote will usually keep non-EV owners from parking there. Close in will have inconsiderate people parking there. I see that at malls now. Never seen a ticket for that yet.
     
  13. voiceofstl

    voiceofstl Well-Known Member

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    everyone says a level 1 isn't enough. But its always based on 8 hours of charging. The vast majority of folks are at home after work so it would be on the charger for 12 hours or more.. Its also based on a emptyn battery which few folks will have.
     
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  14. KrisW

    KrisW Well-Known Member

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    Grocery stores will start to add these too... Everyone's fixated on being able to fully charge the car in five minutes, without thinking of how often they're away from their car, and it could be left to charge at a lower rate while they do something else. 40 minutes at Level 2 covers the juice you used to get to the store and back home.

    When employee parking lots add extensive L2 charging, the argument about where to charge is effectively over.

    In bulk, level 2 charging points would cost less than $500 a bay. CCS2 fast-charge hardware runs to about $50k for two bays (that Tesla figure is likely out of date.. they're probably paying some price penalty for being non standard, but no way is it double)
     
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  15. Dave Z

    Dave Z It's me, Dave
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    At under $500, it's eminently reasonable... and they wouldn't even have to charge rent for the space, though they probably would.
     
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  16. KrisW

    KrisW Well-Known Member

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    One other lesson from the past couple of years is that you should never give charging away for free. It might sound like a neat way of encouraging EV use (and it fits the Silicon Valley business model of burning your capital to subsidise your customers’ business with you), but what it actually does is disincentivise organic investment in charging infrastructure. Nobody can compete with “free”, so for as long as there’s an expectation to not pay the full price for charging, there’s no upside for a small business to invest in EV charging facilities at their premises, even if customers might appreciate the convenience

    The automobile pioneers didn’t feel it was necessary to build gas stations and give gas away to their customers - instead, the demand from motor car owners made selling gas a nice earner for existing stores.

    The best way to run it is to charge a small mark-up on the electricity used - that way, people who need to charge will use it, those who can charge at home instead will wait until they're at home. (One of the other downsides of free use of charging was that it caused users to hog the points, as there was no penalty for overstaying).
     
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  17. Dave Z

    Dave Z It's me, Dave
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    KrisW, that's what I was thinking. Add a penny or two per kW-hour. It's not too high. That said, at many apartment buildings, you have to pay for garage space regardless. I suspect the way it would really work is an extra $5-$10 per month for the charger, plus electricity. The main issue would be enforcement of “no parking in Bob's space and stealing his power,” but an NFC thingie before power could be drawn would solve that.
     
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  18. KrisW

    KrisW Well-Known Member

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    How common are contactless credit-cards in the US? That's the easiest answer to the charging for charging problem. Plug in, tap your card, juice flows until you plug out. A full charge will be less than $10 for most cars. (Worst case, use a mag-swipe)
     
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  19. Dave Z

    Dave Z It's me, Dave
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    How common are iPhones and Apple Watches and Android phones? I use a contactless watch to pay credit cards just about everywhere (Lowe's is an exception, which is funny, since the first place I could do that was a small luncheonette in rural PA).
     
  20. Doug D

    Doug D Virginia Gentleman

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    Up until a few months ago I did not have a contactless debit card (tap and go). My local bank issued the new cards without any prompting from the customers. I don't think they are that common yet - at least not in our area. All of my other cards are either swipe or have the chip. Wife's cards are either swipe or chip. Most retail establishments have had the technology to handle the contactless cards for quite a while.
     

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