Hello, Allpar Forums member or visitor! If you were a member, you would not see this ad!

Register or log in at the top right of the page...

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

The future of Chrysler

Discussion in 'Rumors and Speculation' started by Dave Z, Sep 13, 2017.

  1. bluskye

    bluskye Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2017
    Messages:
    23
    Likes:
    20

    As a person new to this forum I have wondered about this discussion and how it came about. I appreciate you posting this quote in the context of the original discussion. Sergio's quote does not sound offensive to me. In fact he seems very concerned about leaving behind a business that cannot survive.
     
  2. Erik Latranyi

    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2003
    Messages:
    11,053
    Likes:
    10,687

    Sorry, but that is called taking it out of context.

    The entire discussion is around spinning off the things of value. Everyone knows the valuable brands are Jeep, Ram, Maserati and maybe one day, Alfa.

    When the analyst says "...you've done it" it means the spinoff of Ferrari because Ferrari is valuable and can stand on its own. Later Marchionne talks about Maserati standing on its own.

    The spinoffs would be successful businesses. The stumps are what is leftover.

    Nobody ever, ever talked about spinning off Dodge or Chrysler......which is why everyone knows the "stumps" are in reference to those two brands more than any of the others (ok, maybe Lancia).
     
  3. jorisr

    jorisr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2009
    Messages:
    80
    Likes:
    151

    I don't agree that it's out of context.
    I quoted the exact and complete answer with the exact and complete question surrounding the "stump" remark.
    I think most people reading this forumpost are aware that the market analysts and automotive media have speculated about other FCA spin-offs since the succesfull spin-off of Ferrari and CNH-Global. The speculation has centered on Jeep first and foremost. Besides Jeep only Ram and Maserati have been brought up as other potential spin-offs.
    With all that context i can only conclude that the hypothetical "stump" would consist of the following brands:
    Fiat, Fiat Professional, Lancia, Alfa Romeo, Dodge and Chrysler.
    Beside the fact that SM never mentioned any of the current FCA car/truck brands as potential spin-off candidates, he was asked about it numerous times and always said it did not makes sense to him. Compare that with the things he said about the desirability of splitting up the fiat industrial business from the automotive business years before he made it happen. The upcoming spin-off/sell-off of Magneti Marelli has also been discussed for many years. SM always argued that these businesses would be better off seperate from FGA/FCA.

    You may not like the word he used, i can understand that sentiment, i honestly don't understand how you feel that it's a negative statement aimed at Dodge and Chrysler specifically. If you are going to give it such a meaning you should include the rest of the "stump".
     
  4. aldo90731

    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2010
    Messages:
    5,985
    Likes:
    9,911
    Speaking for myself only: I am following very closely how the decision to drop Dart and 200 is playing out.

    There’s the owners like @Ernesto who are fuming at the personal financial loss in resale value; there’s the salespeople like @CDJSalesPro and @BobbiBigWheels who see the void in the product lineup and the impact it has on their ability to retain long-standing customers; there’s the ongoing reports of declining sales, etc., etc.

    I get it, to some it may sound repetitive and arbitrary. But I analyze this kind of stuff for a living, and it is not often than one has the chance to see the laws of economics, marketing theory and consumer behavior play out in real time.

    There are threads that are filled with manufacturing and engineering minutia that, frankly, I find tedious and boring. That doesn’t mean I find them irrelevant, and I wouldn’t dream to tell anyone to get a life, or accuse them of being argumentative, narrow minded, repetitive or having a hidden agenda.

    Yes, everyone is free to reply to any thread. But no one has the right to derail a discussion just because they don’t like it.

    Getting back on topic: the Dart/200 issue is extremely important because the sedan has been automakers’ staple product for 75+ years. Smart competitors are trying to figure out how this migration to CUVs is going to impact their competitive position, and FCA should too.
     
    #1004 aldo90731, Jan 2, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2018
    somber, JavelinAMX, tlc and 5 others like this.
  5. GasAxe

    GasAxe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    4,589
    Likes:
    5,492
    This gets my vote as well. Plus FCA already has a working example of how to separate AWD vehicles; the Durango and Grand Cherokee. The key is to keep engineering off road capable suspension systems and multiple setting transfer cases for Jeep and not get lazy with “Dreamer” models. Remember who coined that term?:rolleyes:
     
    Cody's Car Conundrum likes this.
  6. humdrum

    humdrum Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 4, 2010
    Messages:
    802
    Likes:
    692
    Many people have felt like they were "orphaned" when companies have ended production of their favorite models or ones that they had invested in. Does Oldsmobile, Pontiac, or Mercury ring a bell? I owned a Ford Freestyle at onetime, remember, that was cancelled. It happens. I got over it, I wasn't happy and it took a while. But in business, it does happen.
     
    tlc and AlfaCuda like this.
  7. Christopher

    Christopher Socially Unacceptable
    Staff Member Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2002
    Messages:
    5,092
    Likes:
    873

    I am dismayed that here we are 9 years after the bankruptcy and it feels like there is nothing to show for it in some ways. We have new interiors which are fantastic in my book and desperately needed after the Daimler years. We have new product in the pipeline, but much of that seems like it should have been delivered years ago.

    I know I'll miss something, but the 2 new cars we did get were basically thrown in the trash can. We have the Pacifica appears to be doing well. I am not one of those who feel the need to complain about the age of the 300/Charger. They've been updated and they have done well. Having said that, the new cars can't get here soon enough. To me, if the product performs well you keep it going as long as you can (maybe not as long as Ford's Panther cars) to maximize your profit.

    We've seen time and again where highly anticipated product gets cancelled or pushed back. At some point you have to wonder if it is all smoke an mirrors and at what point is the house of cards going to collapse. I find *that* more troubling than SM's comments. Everything seems to have been pushed back. And not pushed back a little, it has pushed back a lot. That shows to me that the company can't deliver.

    I completely get the feeling of an employer not appreciating worker's sacrifices. I worked for Worldcom when they went bankrupt, and later for a major health system in Metro Detroit. Experiences at both, and particularly the latter, really colored my view on the employer/employee relationship. It would chew you up and spit you out with little regard to you as a person. They used the ACA to withhold raises for years claiming they didn't have the money all the while demanding that we do more with less. (More coverage with fewer people.) Then when they attempted to merge with another health system it came to light that they had made a $50M NET operating profit the year before. It really changed the way I look at my employment. I will work for you as long as it fulfills MY need because I know that you, the company, don't care one whit about me as a person.

    It is one of the reasons I am now a contract worker. My employer seems to be one of the better ones in the industry and when I get placed somewhere none of the drama is mine. If I don't like it, I'm out of there in 13 weeks and on to another. And if my agency turns out to suck, then there are plenty of other good options out there.

    One of the things I often said when I worked at the Detroit health system was that the most important things wouldn't really cost the company money. Show the workers that you appreciate what they're doing. Tell them with sincerity. They know when management is lying. Don't tell them you can't give them a raise, then have an article appear on the front page of the WSJ saying how you just dropped $100K on plants for the lobby of one of the hospitals. Employees smell the BS.

    I cannot see me ever again working for a company that where I feel like I'm being taken advantage of and I completely understand feeling burned out and being taken advantage of.




    Part of the problem is, if the same people keep repeating the same thing, it becomes easier to tune them out. I liken it to sitting through a church service I went to when I was younger. Pastor made a point and I thought, 'Great sermon.' Then he went on to repeat himself 3 more times dragging a sermon that should have been 10 minutes out to 40 minutes. At some point I tuned him out and figured he either really liked the sound of his own voice or thought we were all idiots who didn't get the point he made very well the first go 'round. I often feel that way around here except that the tone seems very negative.

    I find your analysis posts quite interesting and frankly some of the best information posted.


    This neglect of cars reminds me of conversations a friend and I had around 1999 and the early 2000s when Chrysler seemed focused on trucks. We both agreed that when the market turned from trucks back to cars it was going to be a very quick shift and that the Japanese manufacturers that had kept improving their cars were going to reap the benefits of that shift when it happened while Ford, Chrysler and GM were going to suffer greatly. How much and how quickly the pendulum swings back towards sedans remains to be seen.


    So, here's what we're facing. The Dart/200 have been put out to pasture. It doesn't seem like there are any plans to replace them in the near future. What are their options? It seems like unless they can repeat the success of the Neon and its being significantly less expensive to produce, we're not going to see another small car from Dodge/Chrysler for quite some time, if at all. Their "If you want a small car buy a Fiat" way of doing business is so poorly thought out, I can't believe that they even think that is a viable option.
     
    somber, JavelinAMX, GasAxe and 4 others like this.
  8. aldo90731

    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2010
    Messages:
    5,985
    Likes:
    9,911
    Automakers almost always surprise me with a better solution than I can come up with. So I won't presume to tell FCA how to resolve their lack of presence in the car market.

    All I can say is this:
    • The sedan category is far from dead. There are still too many sedans owners in circulation to simply write them off.
    • Toyota and Honda are not giving up; they have product plans in place and the market dominance to be able to revive sedans if they play their cards well.
    • Having a void in cars is proving to bring its own set of issues; if Toyota and Honda are able to revive sedans that void is only going to grow bigger for FCA.
    • Meanwhile, FCA has several lingering issues it is going to have to grab by the horns sooner or later:
      • As you correctly point out, Fiat is not the answer to FCA's presence in the car market. And the longer the Fiat USA debacle is allowed to continue is only going to make the damage more permanent and more likely to spill into other areas
      • Chrysler needs a credible brand vision. What has been articulated so far doesn't pass objective, third-party sniff tests. To borrow your words: "I can't believe that they even think that is a viable option." To allow it to proceed as currently outlined will be a repeat of the Fiat fiasco.
      • FCA has to get serious about addressing, if nothing else, the perception of poor quality and customer treatment. No automaker is going to succeed over the long-term by p*ssing off two-thirds of its customers. Especially in a mature market like North America, where two-thirds of sales go to existing vehicle owners.
    From the masterful decision to revive Dodge Neon in Mexico by re-badging a Fiat Tipo, to adding a PHEV to its minivans, to adding a mild-hybrid to Wrangler and a diesel to Ram 1500, FCA has proved it can surprise us with unexpected, creative and effective solutions.

    My hope is that if we keep bringing light to these real issues, FCA will surprise us with more unexpected, creative and effective solutions.
     
    #1008 aldo90731, Jan 3, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
    somber, GasAxe, tlc and 3 others like this.
  9. redriderbob

    redriderbob Mopar Guru!
    Level 2 Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2004
    Messages:
    10,570
    Likes:
    17,733
    Then Tipo errr Neon would be your savior car then...

     
    aldo90731 and jimboy like this.
  10. redriderbob

    redriderbob Mopar Guru!
    Level 2 Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2004
    Messages:
    10,570
    Likes:
    17,733
    Does the Neon's advertising campaign look familiar for the English speaking UAE market?



    *Note the dash used for the airbag scene...

    Now, remember...

     
    wtxiceman, aldo90731, GasAxe and 2 others like this.
  11. CivoLee

    CivoLee Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2012
    Messages:
    214
    Likes:
    251
    It's just very frustrating to see more new products for Jeep and Ram while Dodge and Chrysler get refreshes and new trim levels for the same cars they've been selling since the mid 2000s year after year. Plus, future products for Jeep and Ram are clearly in production while future Dodges and Chryslers are only hinted at by credible rumors and malleable product plans for investors.

    Also, I get the feeling the deals to continue Dart/200 production via outsourcing fell through because they either didn't benefit the Agnellis enough, didn't benefit FCA more than their would-be partner, or had some sort of simple stipulations attached that would seem reasonable to most companies but were unacceptable to FCA for some flimsy reason (like a commitment of at least 5 years and/or no public slams against the product from the upper management).
     
    #1011 CivoLee, Jan 3, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
    JavelinAMX, GasAxe and valiant67 like this.
  12. AmbassadorSST

    AmbassadorSST Active Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2017
    Messages:
    54
    Likes:
    58
    I'm sure the Fiat Tipo is not a bad car, but I don't see Civic, Corolla, 3, Cruze, Focus, Sentra, Elantra, or Forte, buyers ditching their cars for a rebadged Fiat Tipo. Chrysler lost that battle a long time ago when they instead of making a better 3rd generation Dodge Neon, they barfed out the Frankenturtle that was the Dodge Caliber. Then comes FCA with their rushed to the market to meet EPA #'s Dart with a weird engine and manual tranny's that todays average car buyers generally run away from.
    Chrysler's image as a small car maker is the pits right now, and what does the Tipo (which was launched in 2015 mind you) have to offer that would compete with any other small compact car already in the North American market?
    The only thing it could really could outmatch any competitor in is price, and could you price the thing low enough and still make a decent profit to still justify selling it in the North American market?
     
  13. Ernesto

    Ernesto Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2017
    Messages:
    74
    Likes:
    116
    One of the reasons I drove my 1996 Plymouth Neon for 15 years was the Daimler Frankenturtle. I just couldn't stomach one. Unfortunately for me, I sold the like new Neon. Should have kept it. I keep cars in pristine condition in Central Texas where cars don't rust.
     
    somber and aldo90731 like this.
  14. UN4GTBL

    Level 2 Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2006
    Messages:
    8,144
    Likes:
    2,858
    That's hilarious.
     
  15. DarkSky

    DarkSky Moderator
    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2016
    Messages:
    2,355
    Likes:
    3,684
    My favorite quote from the Dart video is "never too much power." Ironic.
     
    aldo90731, redriderbob and GasAxe like this.
  16. GasAxe

    GasAxe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    4,589
    Likes:
    5,492
    Great post Christopher. It mirrors my own feelings of FCA and their direction very well.

    I think the lack of concern for human capital, employees and customers alike, is due to the end-all-be-all balance sheet that is predicting a market slowdown. I wouldn't agree but could understand an argument being made not to put a dime into employee or customer retention until after the predicted bottoming out of the market. Definitely shortsighted, but being in a mature, capital intensive industry myself, I see plenty of legitimate examples of needing to spend dollars in the long run instead of pennies today just to make everything work in the big picture.
     
    aldo90731 likes this.
  17. Erik Latranyi

    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2003
    Messages:
    11,053
    Likes:
    10,687
    Marchionne will announce the next 5 year plan in the next few months.......but he will not be CEO in 2019.........either he is boxing the next CEO in with this plan or it is another "throw-away" for investor consumption only (so we have been told).
     
    Lee N. Burns, aldo90731 and GasAxe like this.
  18. aldo90731

    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2010
    Messages:
    5,985
    Likes:
    9,911
    There you have it: Fiat is now officially a Mopar brand. :D
     
  19. valiant67

    valiant67 Rich Corinthian Leather
    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2003
    Messages:
    31,980
    Likes:
    11,552
    I’ve watched “human capital” migration from a company (some voluntary, some not) that resulted in longer than necessary product development with flaws that longer term employees would have caught. But hey, it saved money in the short term. And the company eventually was a merger target.
     
    GasAxe likes this.
  20. GasAxe

    GasAxe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 12, 2008
    Messages:
    4,589
    Likes:
    5,492
    I agree, the 5 year plans are a joke. I'm amazed that investors put any stock in it (no pun intended:cool:). As far as the next CEO, I wouldn't be surprised if Sergio becomes the puppet master or if he totally cuts himself off (as much as being on the board allows) and simply plays with Ferrari. I could really see it go either way.
     
    DarkSky likes this.

Share This Page

Loading...