Hello, Allpar Forums member or visitor! If you were a member, you would not see this ad!

Register or log in at the top right of the page...

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

The loss of 200 and Dart....

Discussion in 'Mopar News' started by CDJSalesPro, Dec 2, 2017.

  1. Erik Latranyi

    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2003
    Messages:
    10,819
    Likes:
    10,149
    The reason Fiat is kept around is the same reason why it was rushed to come back.....to keep a presence in the second largest auto market in the world.

    Fiat today is a placeholder in the US until other things happen....net debt zero, merger/sale/acquisition, Alfa/Maserati volumes above a certain amount, Marchionne's promotion from CEO to oversight board.

    Then, everyone will see the true purpose of keeping the money-losing Fiat around in NAFTA.
     
    somber and aldo90731 like this.
  2. aldo90731

    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2010
    Messages:
    5,737
    Likes:
    9,207
    “Appliance”, “impractical”, “outdated” were words used when the minivan, coupe and V8 engine were given for dead.

    Economists can only project historical data. If the data points down, then they will say the future is zero.

    The job of automakers is to disrupt the status quo, and create products that generate new data that points in a different direction,
     
  3. valiant67

    valiant67 Rich Corinthian Leather
    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2003
    Messages:
    31,674
    Likes:
    10,940
    FCA is already subsidizing stand alone Fiat studios. If 500e needs to be around for compliance, it does not justify keeping the regular 500 as compliance is separate for them.

    It’s not just factory floor space that FCA claims to have a shortage off. There are numerous complaints of funding and manpower being in short supply. Dropping Fiat NA, even with keeping the 500e just for CA, frees up money and people.
     
  4. Erik Latranyi

    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2003
    Messages:
    10,819
    Likes:
    10,149
    Once someone "reinvents" the sedan, everybody will see it as obvious.

    But everyone will be late to the dance. FCA will not be invited.
     
  5. TripleT

    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2003
    Messages:
    5,936
    Likes:
    6,429
    ahhhhhhhh Its relevant if it can fill the market hole that you are complain about, and who said its only available in Turkey, a version of it is available in Mexico now. It is completely relevant to fill the whole if they can profitably import model, in much the way they did the Colt and D50 in the past.
     
    ScramFan and jimboy like this.
  6. KrisW

    KrisW Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2015
    Messages:
    1,115
    Likes:
    1,894
    You guys are still missing the point.

    Want to wind up FIAT in the USA? Go ahead. Just buy out the dealership contracts. Ow. That was expensive wasn't it? But wait, now you've still got to support 200,000+ owners until their cars eventually stop working. Now you'll discover that they days of the 5-year automobile are long gone. A new 500 should be good for 10-15 years unless they make the Mexican ones out of pig-iron and gum (spoiler: they don't).

    So, your genius management has left you still paying 60-70% of the costs of actually running the FIAT brand in the USA without the benefit of, you know, actually selling any cars. Plus you leave FCA with nothing to offer the 40,000 people a year who actually liked the products. (Do not, for one minute, consider think that re-badging would work: who will associate Chrylser, known for spacious full-sizers and minivans, with micro-cars?).

    FIAT sales are not lost sales for CJDR. FIAT is not costing money. Withdrawing the brand will cost money. This isn't like killing Plymouth, when it was a matter of shunting the existing models under other badges and hoping the customers followed (most did, some didn't); removing FIAT would drop those customers entirely - there's no alternative for them from FCA US.

    For the thousandth time: Dart and 200 were not cancelled solely because they weren't selling well without incentives. (If the US car industry cancelled models just for needing big incentives to sell, you guys would all be doing a whole lot more cycling and walking). The two models were cancelled because having those two factories available allowed the group to make about a billion dollars of extra money, by allowing unbroken production of capacity-constrained high-margin and high-selling models as they moved to facilities that will allow FCA to make more of them.

    If FCA wasn't so capacity-constrained in the first place, maybe it could have moved Dart/200 to a single, smaller facility doing about 120,000 a year combined, and let them sell at their natural, unaided level, but there was no such facility, and it's debatable if the cost of moving the tooling (and suppliers) would ever have paid itself back.
     
    AlfaCuda, ScramFan, tlc and 3 others like this.
  7. MJAB

    MJAB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    Messages:
    2,607
    Likes:
    2,801
    It is not the car that is an "appliance", it is a buyer that looks at it as simple "tool" to have a service from it, that is his own transportation.
    Not all people as passionate about cars, vehicle dynamics, ... They simply want to move from point A to point B in a safe way and without, possibly, spend too much.

    If a company appears that gives the service of transportation that that person needs, at lower cost, and even better without dealing with service, repairs, recalls, dealerships, insurances, park the car ... even better if at lower costs.

    And there will that customers, that also would like to do something else instead of driving, that will be the first customers of "autonomous driving" vehicles or similar.
    And will happen first in congestioned urban areas.

    And the BIG problem for automakers is that many of the competitors will not be other automakers, but other companies even bigger and financially stronger.

    For example, Alphabet (Google) is a company that sells advertisement spaces and associated services, all the other activities, for most are complementary to their main business activity (such as is the search engine).
    I could guess they could even offer discounts on their Waymo transportation service if You'll use their Internet services while being transported, or whatch newspapers, news, ... or get professional training while going to work.
     
    AlfaCuda, ScramFan and somber like this.
  8. Bob Lincoln

    Bob Lincoln "CHECK FAULT CODES"
    Level 2 Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2002
    Messages:
    29,877
    Likes:
    3,261
    vs. about 1.8 million domestic FCA products. OK.....
     
  9. Bob Lincoln

    Bob Lincoln "CHECK FAULT CODES"
    Level 2 Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2002
    Messages:
    29,877
    Likes:
    3,261
    Everyone I work with says that the 200 and Dart were discontinued because they were JUNK. They will not listen to any explanation. THAT'S the potential customer perception. And it's Sergio's fault.
     
  10. Bob Lincoln

    Bob Lincoln "CHECK FAULT CODES"
    Level 2 Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2002
    Messages:
    29,877
    Likes:
    3,261
    But they are NOT doing it, have not announced any plans to do so, and Mexico is NOT the US (yet). So it IS irrelevant, despite your expressed hopes for the future.
     
    Judas Shuttlesworth likes this.
  11. Bob Lincoln

    Bob Lincoln "CHECK FAULT CODES"
    Level 2 Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2002
    Messages:
    29,877
    Likes:
    3,261
    HA HA HA> Losing less is still losing.

    "That's the problem Dart and 200 likely lost money on each and every unit sold" - are you an insider? It's easy to claim that when we can't fact-check your speculation.
     
  12. Charger383

    Charger383 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2017
    Messages:
    12
    Likes:
    37
    Well, yeah... When the company's leader verbally trashes the products -- what other outcome would be expected?

    The 200 and Dart do indeed have that reputation now that Sergio trash talked them into oblivion.
     
  13. TripleT

    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2003
    Messages:
    5,936
    Likes:
    6,429
    So they are better they Honda? Sure... that and they have published the saving by dropping the models. Before the market collapsed completely.

    Your correct that this unproductive. Especially when One won’t acknowledge the market collapse.
     
  14. Chase300

    Chase300 Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 2, 2012
    Messages:
    966
    Likes:
    731
    Not sure I can agree with all of that...but one thing I think we could agree on is that there are much less if any Subprime buyers of Mercedes or BMW product compared to FCA product. I don't think that is a market you want to go after if trying to raise your margins or get resale values up so you can offer attractive leases as most BMW/Mercedes vehicles are bought.
     
  15. aldo90731

    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2010
    Messages:
    5,737
    Likes:
    9,207
    Data shows that quality brings volume. And because quality brings volume, once a segment becomes dominant in the market, quality becomes the predominant differentiator in that segment. It is self-fulfilling. But this is not inherent to sedans. It is just that sedans have been the dominant segment for decades.

    The reason reliability became such a litmus test for Boomer sedan buyers in particular, is because Toyota and Honda were differentiating on quality when domestic automakers were producing cr+p products. And Boomers rewarded Toyota and Honda with their loyalty ever since. Through their 20 year dominance in the segment, Toyota and Honda obtained market preeminence, but also reduced the sedan to the efficient, reliable FWD appliance we know today. But that doesn't mean this is the only viable value proposition as sedans lose their dominant position in the market.

    The Compact CUV, where CR-V, Compass and Escape compete, is shaping up as the new dominant segment in North America. Not the Subcompact CUV, where Renegade and HR-V compete. The bulk of the sedan migration is going to the Compact CUV, and nameplates in this segment are selling in greatest volume.

    While the original CUV buyers came seeking fun and adventure, as the CUV segment matures and becomes mainstream, we are already seeing reliability become a greater differentiator. This is why CR-V soldiers on as the segment leader; Forester, which differentiates on "appliance" dimensions like safety and durability, is the engine behind Subaru's growth, and why RAV4 sales have been growing at a faster pace than the segment.

    This poses a challenge for Jeep, who keeps competing primarily on fun and adventure. Once this mainstream mindset takes hold of the CUV segment, unless Jeep improves its quality standing, it will be hard pressed to attract buyers in sufficient numbers, just like Chrysler and Dodge were hard pressed to attract buyers in the Midsize and Compact Sedan segments without a quality standing.

    BTW, FCA receives all of this information. Whether it is being correctly interpreted, or whether it reaches the CEO, I don't know. Given the CEO's lackadaisical reaction to product quality, I'd say neither.
     
    #415 aldo90731, Dec 7, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
  16. Bob Lincoln

    Bob Lincoln "CHECK FAULT CODES"
    Level 2 Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2002
    Messages:
    29,877
    Likes:
    3,261
    Then you do completely misunderstand my dismay at the circumstances. I'm not pouting that it's "Not Fair". I'm worried that because of a major blunder, FCA won't be around in the US in any meaningful form by the time I go to purchase my next car. When you lose customers that you can't afford to lose, you fail. And I don't want FCA to fail.
     
  17. jimboy

    jimboy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2006
    Messages:
    909
    Likes:
    620
    I find this conversation fascinating.

    It's one of those "what if" scenarios that EVERYONE has an opinion about, yet none of us will ever be proved right or wrong, at least for several years. I know some of the moderators would like to end this seemingly endless wrangle, but obviously people still want to talk about it, so I say, let them work it out of their systems. It will eventually die down, like all discussions do.

    Maybe this thread should actually be pinned, so it's easily accessible to all? I find myself agreeing with both sides, depending on the argument. Personally, I agree that it is a mistake to leave the segment completely, especially so abruptly, yet I understand the reasons for doing so, financially, but question the reasons for doing so as a long term business decision, or as a customer who prefers cars over crossovers. I think many people here are as ambivalent as I am about the situation. What is FCA to us as customers? Certainly not 'mother mopar' anymore, also not 'fiat', but a new entity struggling to survive in an increasingly tough market world wide. Are they going to get it right every time, not very likely, but hopefully they can learn from past mistakes and satisfy both sides of the fence, financial and product.

    SM reminds me a bit of President Trump, speak first, think second, and the consequences be darned. I don't know if they regret or even notice the backlash from their 'constituents', but the fact remains that if you piss your supporters off too much, they WILL go elsewhere. That is something to be aware of in any situation and I think this type of discussion is an avenue towards that point. The loyalists hate the new regime, the new acolytes think the king can do no wrong, and sooner or later some will leave the party and new ones will come to visit.

    I don't see much I like, product wise, on the 'chrysler' side of the business lately, and what I like on the 'fiat' side is out of my price range, so where does that leave me? I really don't know yet, but I am prepared wait a little longer in hopes I will find something to purchase. I think a lot of people are feeling the same way, yet there are those who say," If you don't like what is available today go somewhere else, and good riddance", this is the NEW FCA. Anyways the next few years will be "interesting times" for the company, I look forward to watching the game!

    Just my nickel's worth! (no pennies left in Canada! )
     
    AlfaCuda, amclaussen, somber and 4 others like this.
  18. MJAB

    MJAB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    Messages:
    2,607
    Likes:
    2,801
    Jeep registrations/sales worldwide, first 10 months 2017.
    World Best Selling Car. The Top 100 Models in the 2017 (at http://focus2move.com/world-best-selling-car/ )

    Grand Cherokee 258.758 +11.8%
    Renegade 235.359 +2.3% <-- Small
    Cherokee 229.606 -24.6%
    Compass 229.526 +93.9% <-- Small
    Wrangler (2 models) 197.032 -1.8%

    The Compass, my opinion, will be Jeep best seller next year when launch on international markets will be complete.
    Since arrives after the Renegade should have, I hope, all the improvements made over time on Renegade, 500X and Toro and new solution to improve its performances in various sectors (durability, noise, assembly enhancement, safety, ...). The segment where it lands is bigger than the one of the Renegade.
    For example engine mounts were updated in Jeep Renegade (but I don't remember when).

    More vehicles built on Small go well, more the chance of something landing in U.S.A. market as passenger car (sedan, hatch or station wagon).
     
  19. aldo90731

    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2010
    Messages:
    5,737
    Likes:
    9,207
    Could be. Or it could also be simple arrogance. God knows it wouldn't be the first time a CEO operated on it.
     
  20. aldo90731

    Level III Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2010
    Messages:
    5,737
    Likes:
    9,207
    I would add: the Fiat brand is "damaged goods" in NAFTA at this point. Six years with a horrid quality reputation, of declining sales, of struggling dealerships has taken its toll on the brand to the point of no return.

    The best FCA can do is find a graceful exit that satisfies all parties, and remove Fiat from being the visible embarrassment that is eroding the credibility FCA still needs to sell other products in the region.
     
    amclaussen and Erik Latranyi like this.

Share This Page

Loading...