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This Just In (latest merger development)

Discussion in 'Mopar / FCA News' started by 77 Monaco Brougham, Sep 25, 2020.

  1. 77 Monaco Brougham

    77 Monaco Brougham Well-Known Member

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  2. Dave Z

    Dave Z It's me, Dave
    Staff Member Level III Supporter

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    They seem to actually care about anti-trust... though VW continues to steamroller through.
     
  3. Chrysler UK

    Chrysler UK Active Member

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    Except that what the EU fails to realise is that:
    • The Ford-Volkswagen Commercial Vehicle JV has a similar market share to FCA + PSA in the Commercial Vehicle Market in Europe (1).
    • Damiler & Renault-Nissan are strong players in the Commercial Vehicle Market in Europe.
    • FCA & PSA have been producing the same Small & Large Vans for several decades now.
    (1) For example, the gap between Ford/VW & FCA/PSA was around 100k Vans in 2017 (Ford, Renault, VW, tighten grip on Europe's LCV sector (at https://europe.autonews.com/article/20180703/ANE/180629776/ford-renault-vw-tighten-grip-on-europe-s-lcv-sector ))
     
  4. KrisW

    KrisW Well-Known Member

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    The short answer is that VW+Ford is not the same thing at all as PSA+FCA.

    The Ford-VW is a Joint Venture, and as such is no different to the JVs already in place between PSA and FCA (SEVEL, for example). While manufacturing and design costs are pooled, both manufacturers remain competitors and there is no chance of, say, Ford and VW dividing up markets to ensure one or other brand has a commanding share in each territory, because both know that the deal has an expiry date.

    PSA+FCA will be a single manufacturer, and not two competitor companies, so there are different rules that need to be followed. Also, the article you link to explains why it's not as simple as sales under each brand-name. For instance, both PSA and FCA make vans for competitors under joint-ventures; a combined entity would not need to, and could afford to take a hit on lower production fees in order to knock a smaller competitor out of the market, or force them to pay more for production. That's what the anti-monopoly investigations are about.
     
    Tony K likes this.
  5. Chrysler UK

    Chrysler UK Active Member

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    While JV's such as SEVEL & the Ford-VW one don't explicitly state that the partners involved will not compete with each other; I highly doubt that the various companies involved in those JVs will go out of their way to compete with their fellow partners, especially when such strong competition would undermine said JV.

    Likewise considering that the various companies involved in each JV are all selling the same vans with the exact same specification, how can one argue that they are "competing" with each other?

    There is a real possiblity that Volkswagen might actually buy Ford itself within a decade.

    Which is why I was refering to the combined figures of PSA + FCA vs the combined figures of Ford + VW.

    The only non PSA + FCA Vans that Stellantis will be making would be the Toyota versions of their Compact (1) & Medium (2) sized vans. Which collectively sold around 29,000 vans in Europe during 2019 (3) and thus was less than 5% of the total number of vans that PSA & FCA collectively sold in Europe.

    So even if Stellantis decided to stop making those Toyota's versions of their vans; it would barely impact the wider van market and it wouldn't stop Toyota themselves from finding other arragements to maintain a presence in the European LCV market, be it via going back to importing the HiAce into Europe or by partering up with another automaker.

    (1) Otherwise known as the Citroën Berlingo, Peugeot Partner & Opel/Vauxhall Combo

    (2) Otherwise known as the Citroën Dispatch/Jumpy, Peugeot Expert & Opel/Vauxhall Vivaro

    (3)
    Toyota Motor Europe outperforms market and posts strong growth in 2019, reaching 5.3% market share (at https://newsroom.toyota.eu/toyota-motor-europe-outperforms-market-and-posts-strong-growth-in-2019-reaching-53-market-share/ )

    I understand where they are coming from, but it has to be done on the basis of what is economically sustainable in the current automobile industry.
     
  6. T_690

    T_690 Well-Known Member

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    Speaking of LCVs. It seems that the next generation Dobló is green lit including BEV version. Still made by Tofas JV in Turkey. Still on FCA's platform (Small Wide).
     
  7. Chrysler UK

    Chrysler UK Active Member

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    Do you know if Stellantis (or rather FCA & PSA) has any plans for the future the Berlingo/Partner/Combo Van? In other words are they going to keep the current version in production or are they going to replace it with a Doblo based version?

    Because it doesn't really make any sense for Stellantis to produce 2 seperate Compact Vans when PSA & FCA already (jointly) produce a single Sub-Compact Van & single Large Van, while Stellantis is likely to produce a Single Medium Van* once the merger is permitted.

    *Since the Renault Traffic based Fiat Talento will likely be replaced by a new version based on the Dispatch/Jumpy/Expert/Vivaro Van post-merger.
     
  8. MJAB

    MJAB Well-Known Member

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    Latest new about the proposed members of the Board of Directors of Stellantis.

    "... FCA and its reference shareholder Exor have nominated 5 members (including John Elkann as Chairman) and Groupe PSA and two of its reference shareholders (EPF/FFP and BPIfrance) have nominated 5 members (including the Senior Independent Director and the Vice Chairman). Carlos Tavares, Stellantis’ Chief Executive Officer, will also be a member of the Board of Directors. ..."

    "...
    John Elkann (Chairman),
    Robert Peugeot (Vice Chairman)
    Henri de Castries (Senior Independent Director)
    Andrea Agnelli (Non-Executive Director)
    Fiona Clare Cicconi (Non-Executive Director)
    Nicolas Dufourcq, (Non-Executive Director)
    Ann Frances Godbehere, (Non-Executive Director)
    Wan Ling Martello (Non-Executive Director)
    Jacques de Saint-Exupéry, (Non-Executive Director)
    Kevin Scott (Non-Executive Director)
    Carlos Tavares (Chief Executive Officer)
    ..."

    In the board John Elkann and Carlos Tavares will be also Executive Director of Stellantis.

    https://www.fcagroup.com/en-US/medi..._FCA_announce_Stellantis_Board_membership.pdf

    Note: Mike Manley, CEO of FCA, will not be a member of the board.
     
  9. patfromigh

    patfromigh Well-Known Member

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    The Opel version of the Doblo was immediately dropped after PSA bought Opel/Vauxhall. It was soon replaced by a new EMP2 based Combo. The sub-compact Fiat van for Europe is the Fiorino. The Latin American Fiorino is a different van based on the Strada. That I know of PSA currently doesn't use either design. They did before 2017.
     
    #9 patfromigh, Sep 29, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2020
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  10. Chrysler UK

    Chrysler UK Active Member

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    Indeed that is true, what I was asking was if Stelltantis was going to carry on making 2 Different Compact Vans (Doblo & the EMP2 Vans) or discontinue 1 of them post merger.

    Would it not make sense to replace the "Latin American" Fiat Fiorino with the Fiat Doblo? Especially considering that they are both roughly the same size.
     
  11. patfromigh

    patfromigh Well-Known Member

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    The Fiorino is a size smaller then the Doblo in all the markets where they are sold. The Doblo built in Brazil, and sold there as well as other Latin American countries, is at least two generations behind the one sold in Europe. The speculation from South America is that the old Doblo sold there will be replaced by an EMP2 based van with Fiat styling and drivetrain after the merger. The speculation is strictly rumors at this point.

    My own speculation is that the Doblo/Ram PMC will continue after the merger. It is a more serious truck than the what PSA offers, with its bi-link suspension, larger engines, and various body options.

    My own wish is that a MPV with conventional doors based on the EMP2 platform would be sold as a Chrysler.
     
    #11 patfromigh, Sep 30, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2020
  12. T_690

    T_690 Well-Known Member

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    @patfromigh

    Doesn't make sense with PSA track record in Mercosur. PSA down there is dead man walking. They are selling more than 4 times less cars than FCA and are losing money.

    And all that at the time when the new FCA engineered Dobló is green lit.
     
  13. patfromigh

    patfromigh Well-Known Member

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    Look at what they are selling in Brazil as a Doblo. It would make more sense to combine small van production in one of the PSA facilities down there for Latin America.

    BTW, I edited my other post above.

    Once the merger goes through then Stellantis can use the PSA Mercosur region as a penal colony for dissident executives.;)
     
  14. MJAB

    MJAB Well-Known Member

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    The Peugeot Partner / Citroen Berlingo sold in Brazil and South America, if I am not wrong, is the original 1997 (introduced in Brazil in 1998) version. In Europe it is at its third generation (from 2018).
    The FCA Doblò sold in Brazil is a generation behind the one offered in Europe as Doblò and as Ram Promaster City in North America. First generation was introduced in 2010 and second generation in 2010 (Tofas actual production).

    PSA large van, the brothers of Ducato / Promaster, sold in South America are imported from Italy (same does FCA for Fiat Ducato in Mexico where there is also the Ram Promaster).

    For the Peugeot Expert I have no data.

    PSA and Fiat group had already an alliance in Argentina created in 1978, the SEVEL Argentina that manufactured some cars models and LCVs.
    End of 1981 PSA whithdrew and Fiat assumed control, but production continued till 1995.
    Fiat build a new plant and the SEVEL one went to PSA in 1999.

    Second and third generation of Fiat Fiorino, also for Europe, were manufactured in FCA's Betim plant, In 2007 arrived a new model for Europe that is manufactured in Turkey by Tofas.

    Personally I think that is more probable that the new Fiorino for South Amrica will be based on the Fiat Strada.

    Note: many in Italy would like to see the return of Fiat Strada, in particular small farmers and small construction business and similar.
     
    #14 MJAB, Sep 30, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2020
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  15. T_690

    T_690 Well-Known Member

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    @MJAB

    Can you find list of South American PSA factories and what is produced in each of them? If you want you can add Mecixo into mix.
     
  16. patfromigh

    patfromigh Well-Known Member

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    I was wrong about PSA Group trying to sell a Chinese pickup truck in Latin America. The Peugeot pickup currently sold in Africa is a badge engineered Dongfeng product. Starting next year, a cooperative venture with Changan has developed a truck which will be sold as the Peugeot Landtrek. It will be sold in Mexico, Latin America and sub Saharan Africa. After the merger, if PSA tries to close any plants in South America, importing a truck from China won't go over very well.

    I can't figure out what LCVs are built in Mercosur.

    While the newest generation Strada is just getting started, the outgoing one was the basis for the Fiorino sold in South America. I would expect them to follow up with the new one as well.
     
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  17. MJAB

    MJAB Well-Known Member

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    PSA as well as FCA has a long history in South America.

    Argentina
    Buenos Aires - El Palomar Car Assembly Plant
    Products: Peugeot 308, Peugeot 408, Peugeot Partner, Citroën C4 Citroën Lounge, and Citroën Berlingo.

    They had for components the Jeppener Auto Component Plant in Buenos Aires area, but sold to Clapp end of 2017.

    Brazil
    Porto Real - Rio de Janeiro
    In 2001 they build the "Polo Industrial Brasil” (PIBR) (same idea of FCA's Beyim plant).
    Products
    Vehicles: Peugeot 208, 2008, Citroën C3, AIRCROSS e C4 Cactus
    Engines: EC5 1.6l e EC5 EAT6 flexfuel e a gasolina, para veículos comercializados no Brasil e na Argentina. Ampliando as atividades do Polo Industrial Brasil,
    In 2009 the added aluminium casting for cast iron engine blocks and aluminium heads.

    Uruguay
    Montevideo
    PSA is manufacturing since 2017 with EASA and Nordex some LCVs.
    The assembly is done in Nordex industrial complex.
    Products: Peugeot Expert and Citroën Jumpy
    Nordex S.A. assembles also vehicles for Renault trucks, Dongfeng, KIA and Geely.

    In Mexico PSA should not have plants for production of vehicles.

    Faurecia, PSA components controlled company, have several plants worldwide, some in JV with Marelli, for example the one in Goiana for Renegade / Compass and Toro parts.

    sources: PSA Brazil website, PSA general website, some general industry databases.
     
    #17 MJAB, Sep 30, 2020
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2020
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  18. Chrysler UK

    Chrysler UK Active Member

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    It's true that the Mark 1 Doblo (which is the one they still make in Brazil & and is a generation behind the current Mark 2 Doblo) is smaller than the (Latin American) Fiorino. What I was sugessting was that the (Latin American) Fiorino should be replaced by the upcoming Mark 3 Doblo, which (asumming its not smaller than the Mark 2 Doblo) should be bigger than the (Latin American) Fiorino.

    Stellantis would be better off replacing the Mark 1 Doblo with the Mark 3 Doblo.

    Agreed, hence why Stellantis should actually replace the EMP2 Compact Vans with Peugeot, Citroen & Opel/Vauxall versions (1) of the Mark 3 Doblo, which should become the default Compact Van for Stellantis.

    (1) Although I maintain that Ram should be their sole Commerical Vehicle Brand across the World.
     
  19. patfromigh

    patfromigh Well-Known Member

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    The Latin American Fiorino offers a lot of utility for its price and size. It doesn't need to be replaced by a larger model. The old Doblo is needs replacing. The Partner and Berlingo are already in production in Buenos Airies, and it's obvious PSA chose the EMP2 vans over the Doblo. I imagine cost has a lot to do with picking the their own design and platform over importing the Tofas built Doblo from Turkey. The fact that Opel dropped their version of the Doblo like a hot rock says a lot about the PSA decision, right or wrong.
     
  20. pumadog

    pumadog Well-Known Member

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    The Doblo might be the better workhorse, I don't know. But the PSA compact vans are much more attractive in their passenger versions. With the absence of dedicated small passenger vans (Zafira, C4 Picasso etc.) I don't know if they want to give that up – when the Doblo stays similar to it's current, non-attractive form.
     

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