AF: This Just In (latest merger development) | Page 2 | Allpar Forums
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

This Just In (latest merger development)

Discussion in 'Mopar / FCA News' started by 77 Monaco Brougham, Sep 25, 2020.

  1. Chrysler UK

    Chrysler UK Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2020
    Messages:
    92
    Likes:
    66
    The SWB Mark 2 Doblo is 6mm longer, 23mm wider & 55mm lower than the (Latin American) Fiorino. So unless the Mark 3 Doblo is going to be a lot bigger than the Mark 2 version, then its the perfect sized LCV to replace the (Latin American) Fiorino.

    Except that I also want to replace the EMP2 vans with the Mark 3 Doblo.

    Nothing stopping Stellantis building the Mark 3 Doblo in Brazil (as well as Turkey). Especially when there would be the space to do so at Betim once the Mark 1 Doblo & (Latin American) Fiorino are discontinued.

    PSA dropped the Opel/Vauxhall version of the Doblo because they wanted to save money. Which is the exact same reason why I want Stellantis to produce 1 Compact LCV instead of 3 at present.

    Do you know how many Passenger Versions of the EMP2 vans did PSA sell last year? Likewise I would be interested in your thoughts to why you think the EMP2 Vans are better passenger vans than the Doblo.
     
    #21 Chrysler UK, Oct 1, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2020
  2. pumadog

    pumadog Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2012
    Messages:
    327
    Likes:
    256
    I was talking about attractivity. Just look at some photos and you should know what I mean. European numbers for the passenger versions seem to reflect that. Note the sales jump at Opel:

    Fiat Doblo Panorama
    2019 6.301
    2018 6.871
    2017 7.258
    2016 7.828
    2015 9.729

    Peugeot Rifter (since 2018) / Partner Ranch (up to 2018)
    2019 53.266
    2018 28.013
    2017 26.622
    2016 27.116
    2015 24.106

    Citroën Berlingo Multispace
    2019 45.177
    2018 35.112
    2017 37.566
    2016 39.462
    2015 35.632

    Opel Combo Tour (Switch from Doblo to Rifter base in 2018)
    2019 13.203
    2018 3.596
    2017 2.064
    2016 2.069
    2015 1.798
     
    patfromigh likes this.
  3. MJAB

    MJAB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    Messages:
    3,420
    Likes:
    4,033
    If I am not wrong there are not trade agreements between Brazil and Turkey for the commercial vehicles.
    There are agreement with European Union and PSA is importing large vans from Europe, but SEVEL is a joint venture between FCA and PSA.
     
  4. MJAB

    MJAB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    Messages:
    3,420
    Likes:
    4,033
    Fiat, in the last years, never promoted the Fiat Doblò passengers version, it preferred to promote the 500L. They dropped Doblò and Qubo passengers from their productline some time ago.
     
    Chrysler UK likes this.
  5. pumadog

    pumadog Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2012
    Messages:
    327
    Likes:
    256
    According to the monthly sales that must have happened in early 2020. Face it: the Doblo is an ugly duck. Good for work, not so much for parking in front of your house. Also PSA and Opel had dedicated small passenger vans until recently. Now that those vans get replaced by SUVs throughout the industry, people who still want a minivan have to go for the passenger versions of commercial vans. Therefore I think Stellantis might want to keep their rather successful offerings. Launched in 2018, they are pretty fresh anyway und surely not to be replaced by a new Doblo product next year.
     
  6. MJAB

    MJAB Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 4, 2013
    Messages:
    3,420
    Likes:
    4,033
    They are LCVs first of all, work tool in which FCA and PSA most of their market leadership.
    That said using the same platform of actual PSA Partner and brothers is a big error if one analyze actual capacity of the platforms (EMP2 vs. Small v1 LCV variant).
    Also using the actual Small v2 the capacity would be better, for example The Fiat Toro has a load capacity of 1000 kg.

    The actual Fiat Doblò / Ram Promaster City have a higher load capacity than Peugeot Partner, from 750 to 1005 kg for the Doblò, for the Partner from 625 or 850 kg in short L1 version and 750 kg in long L2 version.
    Internal space is smaller, up to 2.05 m in Parner L2 vs. 2.17 m, with passenger seat down option 3.4 m vs. 3250 mm.
    So internal volune for Partner in cargo area is 3.3 cubic meters for short and 3.7 cubic meter for long version, while for Doblò is in range 3.4 to 5.0 cubic meters (version XL = high roof and long wheelbase).
    Wheelbases are Doblò 2755 mm vs 2728 mm for the Partner, the same for L1 and L2 versions, Doblò Maxi / Ram Promaster City is 3105 mm.

    The Doblò has also a high roof version.

    To note that for longer Doblò / Ram Promaster City version there is no decrease in payload capacity (for XL is 1005 kg) while the Partner long version has a load capacity of 750 kg.

    note: intyernal size can change based on version and configuration for example type of partition, interior options, ...
     
    #26 MJAB, Oct 3, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2020
    Chrysler UK and T_690 like this.
  7. T_690

    T_690 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2015
    Messages:
    3,529
    Likes:
    4,630
    Doblò is much better workhorse than PSA fragile product.
     
    Chrysler UK likes this.
  8. patfromigh

    patfromigh Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,610
    Likes:
    3,350
    I suspect there will be at least two families of small vans in Stellantis, the Emp2 based Rifter/Berlingo/Partner and the Doblo/Ram PMC. The current Doblo from Tofas is superior for use as a truck, but Fiat in Brazil continues to build and sell the much older Doblo design. The Fiat Toro uses the the bi-link rear suspension which is very similar, if not exactly the same, as the suspension in the Doblo. Perhaps Fiat would create a van based on the Toro similar to what they have done with the Strada based Fiorino. From the reports I have heard about driving in large metropolitan areas in Latin America, LCVs with tall cargo areas are the most practical.

    I don't know why PSA was so quick to drop the Doblo based Opel van. perhaps it was because they didn't want to use the Fiat engines. Many of us here in North America are disappointed that the Ram ProMaster City is still only sold as just the long wheelbase low roof van. I realize the Chicken Tax hinders FCA from importing other Doblo variants, perhaps something could be built in Mexico.

    It would not be sensible to use only one platform and design for small vans. The buyers of LCVs and MPVs have very different needs. Local needs are also different across the globe, so local production should be matched to the needs of each home market.
     
    freshforged, pumadog and jorisr like this.
  9. Stéphane Dumas

    Stéphane Dumas Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2002
    Messages:
    3,477
    Likes:
    716
    I guess the Doblo based Opel van still have some parts of GM's IP and they dropped it to stop to pay some IP to GM?
     
  10. Adventurer55

    Adventurer55 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2015
    Messages:
    3,413
    Likes:
    4,437
    Heck, FCA doesn't even see fit to give NA the decent looking front end on the Promaster that built here.
     
    cdjr77, somber and jclick like this.
  11. Chrysler UK

    Chrysler UK Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2020
    Messages:
    92
    Likes:
    66
    Those are good sales for the EMP2 Passenger Variants. However considering that the main market for the EMP2 Vans is in the Commerical sector, the Doblo is the better option (as a LCV) and thus should be the sole Compact Van for Stellantis.

    Hence why if Stellantis wants to retain those EMP2 Passenger Variant customers (should the EMP2 Vans be discontinued); they should be redirected towards the Peugeot 5008 instead, mainly because it's a similar size (& has a amount of similar space) to the EMP2 Passenger Variants.

    Except that they where designed & launched at a time when there was little prospect of a FCA-PSA merger. So now that the circumstances have changed, one would argue that the EMP2 Vans have become surplus to requirements.
     
  12. Chrysler UK

    Chrysler UK Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 12, 2020
    Messages:
    92
    Likes:
    66
    Wouldn't make any sense for Stellantis to do this; especially when the new company already produces one type of Full-Sized Van, one type of Medium-Sized Van & one type of Subcompact Van. So why not implement the same stratagy for Compact Vans?

    Because PSA didn't want to pay Fiat to produce Opel/Vaxuall Compact Vans, when they could simply produce them themselves.

    Well they could either expand the Saltillo Plant or they could move production of the RAM Heavy Duty Trucks to another plant in either the United States or Canada. Either of which would make space to build the Doblo/PMC in Saltillo.

    Any particular local needs can be met via the use of different engines and interior modifications, rather than having to develop & build a completely seperate van for a particular market. Because at the end of the day, we all want a van that is practical & useful to use more than anything else.

    Hence why FCA ended up modifying the Sevel Full-Size Van for North America (in the form of the Promaster) while Ford has ended up designing & developing its current generation Transit with both Europe & North America in mind.
     

Share This Page

Loading...
 We are not affiliated with FCA. We make no claims regarding validity or accuracy of information or advice. Copyright © VerticalScope Inc. All rights reserved.