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Timing belt change complete, won't roll over

Discussion in 'Neon' started by coltmac, Jan 16, 2017.

  1. coltmac

    coltmac Active Member

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    Not real cold, maybe 45. it is the screw in type.
    Battery tested good, so they replaced the starter. Hopefully it does the trick. If not I'll be looking for some electrical issue. I'll be working on it this weekend. So more to come. I'll come back and update, no matter what the outcome.
     
  2. AllanC

    AllanC Well-Known Member

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    At 45 deg F the starter will turn the engine slower than at 60 - 80 deg F and give somewhat lower compression readings. But the important point for a compression test is the variance between cylinders. Refer to the link I provided on Jan 17, 2017 for checking compression. Page 9 - 9 and 9 - 10 outlines the procedure.

    I would suggest you try and start the engine. I believe you have checked and verified that the camshaft and crankshaft timing marks are aligned properly and correct. If that is the case starting the engine will not cause any more damage to valves (if you even have damage). Start the engine and listen and see how it runs. Does it run smoothly or does it have a miss fire? If some valves got bent then there will be low compression and uneven firing on that cylinder and should be noticeable.
     
  3. coltmac

    coltmac Active Member

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    OK, this has morphed into something else. Or rather it's probably always been something else, I just didn't realize it. :( Resulting in wasted time money and now over a month without my car. Isn't this fun!
    So I feel I have ruled out an issue with the head or valves or interference internally. I'm now focusing on trying to determine why it won't roll over correctly. To remind everyone what it is doing, when I turn the key it cranks a little and grinds and cranks and sometimes stops with no consistency or repetition. The battery checked out good at the auto parts store, with more than the label CCA's. Battery terminals cleaned. The voltage to the big terminal on the starter didn't drop off much when cranking, but the little terminal would start out with battery voltage, but then would drop off to nearly half voltage and that is when the starter would start grinding and acting up. So I looked at the relays and noticed that the start relay begins to chatter when the starter grinds. So I switched it with the AC relay, which had the same #, no help, did the same thing. So I'm ruling out the relay. I wondered about the key switch, or switch under the dash, however that is made, but didn't want to get into that just yet, I've had issues in the past with other vehicles and it sometimes is a major pain. So I decided to try bypassing the switch and relay. disconnected the little wire on the starter and connected a jumper that I could temporally connect to the positive post on the battery and BAM it rolled right over. At this point I just wanted to see if the dang thing would run, so I connected the ignition and fuel wires turned the key to run position and started cranking.... Roll roll roll roll nothing! Not a single fire. Pulled a plug, to check for spark, nothing there too. Don't even think I have fuel as the plug wasn't wet and can't smell any gas out of the spark plug tube. What the heck is going on!!!!!! With the key in run position and not cranking I checked voltage at the ignition coil plug. It has 3 conductors, 1.2v on both outside conductors and 2.2v at the center one. This might not be completely accurate, as my volt meter isn't the best, but not that far off, battery voltage was showing over 13 volts. Does anyone know what voltage I should be seeing at the ignition coil plug? Also, is the CPU the box at the front of the engine bay driver side? I did have it loose when installing the new radiator, so I checking for loose plugs. Could I have a bad CPU? Could it give me all of these symptoms?? Any help is appreciated.
     
  4. AllanC

    AllanC Well-Known Member

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    Sit in the driver's seat and close the driver's door. This eliminates the key-in-ignition dinger from sounding. Turn off the radio and the A C / heater blower fan. Fasten seat belt. This will eliminate any noise distractions. Turn the ignition switch to RUN position but do NOT attempt to start the engine. You should hear the fuel pump power up for 1 - 2 seconds and then stop. It will be a slight whirring sound from the rear. If you do not hear this sound then the fuel pump relay is not being energized.

    Check all the relays in the PDC (power distribution center) and make sure all are firmly seated. There are 4 connectors at the powertrain control module (PCM) that is mounted near the left side of the radiator. Make sure all 4 connectors are pressed in firmly to the PCM and their locking tabs are securely closed.

    Go under the vehicle and check the connector at the crankshaft position sensor. It is located under the starter and near the flywheel. It has a 3 wire connector. If this connector or one or more of the 4 connectors were dislodged at the PCM, this could cause a crank, no start.

    Your test of the 3 wires at the ignition coil ontop of the cam cover is not valid. The ASD (automatic shut down) relay needs to be energized to provide power to the coil pack assembly. The crankshaft must be rotating and a pulsing signal generated by the crankshaft position sensor and sent to the PCM. The PCM detects crankshaft rotation and engages the ASD relay. This provides power for ignition spark and provides power through the fuel pump relay to the electric fuel pump. Check all these connections mentioned and for the whirring sound of the electric fuel pump priming at KEY ON and report back.
     
    Bob Lincoln likes this.
  5. coltmac

    coltmac Active Member

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    check check check check. I had done all this yesterday with checking wiring and all, but rechecked all these this morning again and no change.
     
  6. AllanC

    AllanC Well-Known Member

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    Do you hear the fuel pump power up at initial key-on? Use a scan tool and retrieve any diagnostic codes (if present) in the PCM. This crank, no start has to be caused by an interrupted electrical connection somewhere in the vehicle.
     
    coltmac likes this.
  7. coltmac

    coltmac Active Member

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    yes the fuel pump powers up. I hear it run for a few seconds once the key is turned to the run position. I don't have a scan tool, would have to borrow one. The key dance didn't show anything, no big surprise there.
     
  8. AllanC

    AllanC Well-Known Member

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    That result indicates that the PCM control circuit to the ASD (automatic shut down) relay is working. The ASD relay closes and provides power to the ignition coils and fuel pump and other devices.

    Next test is to determine if the PCM is receiving a pulsing signal from the crankshaft position sensor. Establish the situation where there is minimal noise in and around the vehicle. Turn the ignition switch to START. Allow the starter to turn the engine for 5 seconds. Then release the ignition switch to RUN position. Do NOT turn to OFF. After the starter stops spinning the crankshaft, you should hear the fuel pump continue to run for 1 - 2 seconds and then disengage. If you do NOT hear the fuel pump continue to run for the 1 - 2 second interval after starter stop, then the PCM is NOT receiving a pulsing signal from the crankshaft position sensor. This is a "poor mans way / easy way" to detect proper operation of the crankshaft position sensor and its circuitry to the PCM.

    If the previous test for listening for the fuel pump does not provide any definitive guidance, then get access to a scan tool and check for diagnostic codes. On my 2003 Neon the key dance routine no longer provides codes in the odometer display about possible diagnostic codes.
     
  9. ImperialCrown

    Level III Supporter

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    You may be able to get fault codes (if any are stored) by holding in the trip odometer reset button before rolling the ign key to run for the key-dance.
    If there are no codes stored, the odometer should at least say 'donE'.
     
    AllanC likes this.
  10. coltmac

    coltmac Active Member

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    I started looking and testing all the ground wires to body and engine, and found a bad connection to the body above the PCM. I loosened this connection when changing the headlight because the wire was routed over the headlight mount. Loosened it enough to move and retightened it but not enough to make a good ground connection. I'm guessing this is the ground for the PCM. Once I tightened it down, car started right up. This has been a long exhaustive experience. Thanks everyone for their advice and input, I've learned a lot.
    Also, FYI, my 2005 does give computer codes with the key dance.
     
  11. chuzz

    chuzz Well-Known Member

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    Well, even though you went through hell with it, at least you stayed with it and solved it! Kudos to you and congratulations.
     
  12. Jason_MKG

    Jason_MKG New Member

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    I thought I would add too, that if you have access to a borescope, (I got mine at Harbor Freight recently for I think $70?) you'll be able to stick it down each spark plug hole and, with the 45° mirror, look up at the valves. If the crank/cam is in the compression stroke, both valves should be closed. Using the borescope, you'll be able to see whether or not the valve(s) are bent. It makes checking for things like this so much easier and proves out whether or not you have a possible valve job on your hands. Just my 2 cents. :) Nevertheless, I'm happy to hear you got your Neon running again! Nice work!!
     

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